Enter your vote today! Check out the new poll for the canyons group:
What should be the primary focus issues of the American Canyoneering Association? Please select up to five issues from the list below.
o Guide Training/Certification o Promote Canyoneering Safety o Develop Standards for Techniques o Public Education o Land Manager Education o Lobbying to Maintain Access o Promote Canyoneering to the Public o Canyoneering Gear Reviews o Information Resource o Forum for Sharing Ideas o Outright Ban on Bolting o Promoting Responsible Bolt Placement o Replacement of Unsafe Bolts o Help Develop New Areas for Canyoneering o Group Benefits for Guides
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canyons@egroups.com
Enter your vote today! Check out the new poll for the canyons group:
Will you attend our next Canyoneering Rendezvous, February 17-19 (Presidents’ Day weekend) in Arizona?
o Yes o No
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Mark
I have taken a group of six through Mystery > before, that is a big group to get through the > canyon. > I know what you mean- I think I had the worse case scenario in Pine- I took a total of 12 through when it was full of cold water and we got stuck behind a very slow group. It took 7 bone-chilling hours. But, of course, everybody was totally stoked and had big smiles.
Mark
Shane B.
>>Group size in Zion is 12 but we could get 4 different permits. To: canyons@egroups.com> Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 8:22 PM Subject: RE: [canyons group] New poll for canyons
HI Charly:
Thanks for the response. You know what would really be cool– if all of the > canyon egroup members could get together next Spring for a trip through > Mystery, or Behunin, or whatever. Frankly, I am so impressed with what I > perceive to be the level of expertise here, that I would take on almost > anything with this group. I think it would be a blast. Group size in Zion > is 12 but we could get 4 different permits.
About bolts- I have placed zeero bolts. But, now that I’m an intermediate > canyoneer, I think I should know how to place a nuclear bolt (able to > survive a nuclear blast). I have placed one for practice, but not in a > canyon. I too would rather hang off of a big ol Pondo. But, they are not > always available. Which suggests that knowing how to place a nuclear bolt > should be in every canyoneers haul-bag of tricks.
Gotto go for now-
Happy Rappin’ > Mark
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Mark
HI Charly:
Thanks for the response. You know what would really be cool– if all of the canyon egroup members could get together next Spring for a trip through Mystery, or Behunin, or whatever. Frankly, I am so impressed with what I perceive to be the level of expertise here, that I would take on almost anything with this group. I think it would be a blast. Group size in Zion is 12 but we could get 4 different permits.
About bolts- I have placed zeero bolts. But, now that I’m an intermediate canyoneer, I think I should know how to place a nuclear bolt (able to survive a nuclear blast). I have placed one for practice, but not in a canyon. I too would rather hang off of a big ol Pondo. But, they are not always available. Which suggests that knowing how to place a nuclear bolt should be in every canyoneers haul-bag of tricks.
Gotto go for now-
Happy Rappin’ Mark
Charly Oliver
Mark,
Exactly.There are plenty of vehicles available to a person who is interested in learning more advanced canyoning techniques. Whether those techniques are efficient rope management, movement in wild water or anchor placement. This brochure shouldn’t take on that responsibility.
Personally, as far as the bolt thing goes, I think we blow it way out of proportion. In my mind “bolts” are just another tool we have at our disposal and should be used appropriately. When we focus our discussion on bolts before over all else, we run the risk of training new people that bolts are the centerpiece of any canyoning anchor. That is simply not true.
As the anti-bolt people will testify, there are plenty of canyons out there that do not require the use of bolts for safe anchors. Natural anchors are faster, easier and often more convenient to use than bolts. I know given the choice, I will sling a tree or chockstone and move on, continuing to enjoy the canyon, rather than stand there and drill a hole.
I think it is wrong to train new canyoners to think of bolts first. In fact we should do just the opposite and train them that bolts should be considered as their last option.
Charly —–Original Message—– From: Mark [mailto:litlbear@xpressweb.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 5:23 PM To: canyons@egroups.com Subject: RE: [canyons group] New poll for canyons
Charly,
Perhaps the way bolt placement should be addressed could go something like:
“Anchor evaluation and aid/protection placement are 2 vitally important topics which are beyond the scope of this brochure. Those anticipating a trip through a technical canyon need to investigate these skills- your life will depend on it.”
Mark
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Mark
Charly,
Perhaps the way bolt placement should be addressed could go something like:
“Anchor evaluation and aid/protection placement are 2 vitally important topics which are beyond the scope of this brochure. Those anticipating a trip through a technical canyon need to investigate these skills- your life will depend on it.”
Mark
hmoon@petzl.com
Just voted. Would like to see the following topics covered:
Horizontal/low-angle progression (moving over uneven terrain / scrambling) Group size judgment Reference to technical texts and other sources of info/training Blank spot for contact info stamp by guide service, retail shop, etc.
A general canyon info brochure (for display in retail shops and visitor centers, for example) should:
1. Communicate the possibilities for enjoyment of the canyon environment to the uninitiated (generate interest and excitement) 2. Inform of the dangers unique to and/or possibly unexpected of canyons (balance the excitement a bit with flash floods, verticality, etc.) 3. Encourage proper training, gear, etc. without becoming instructional 4. List resources on technique, training, canyon locations, etc.
Addition pub. possibilities:
Gear/technique/experience checklist for use by backcountry rangers and landowners. Location-specific brochures for high-traffic areas and/or unique safety precautions
It would be beyond the scope of a brochure to offer instruction of any kind. Technical topics can be listed as an “FYI: you need these skills to do this.”
IMO
hank
Charly Oliver
Anchor Evaluation. Scary indeed.
I’ve hung nervously on more questionable anchors than I care to think about, bolts or not. By the same token, I’ve trusted others implicitly that may have been completely bogus. Many years of hard won experience and I’m still not sure sometimes.
A recent example for me was our anchor maintenance at the Zion Rendezvous in August. In both Pine Creek and Mystery Canyons we encountered a number of bolts that, although big and beefy looking themselves, stuck out of the rock at least a half inch (not good) and had these queer looking home-made hangers on ’em made out of that cheesy, bendable metal stripping with holes in it that you buy at the hardware store. Any of you who have been there, know the ones I’m talking about.
At the last rappel in Pine Creek the bolt didn’t look too bad, so we thought we would just replace the weird hanger. The bolt broke off when we tried to unscrew it with a wrench. Good thing we replaced it. In Mystery, the first of such bolts we encountered, we replaced, as our experience with the bolt in Pine Creek suggested we do. Well that one, as poor as it looked, was a bitch to get out. We ran into another one just like it a little later that took four of us over an hour of hard work to get out. In retrospect, both of those bolts themselves were bomber, (even though the hangers left much to be desired). We had such a hard time getting them out in fact, that we opted not to replace any others we encountered.
How do you know?
I suppose this is one reason artificial anchors should always be redundant. You can look at a tree or a tied off chockstone and see if it is good or not. Not so with a bolt. Another reason to not do anything to encourage the inexperienced to place them. But we can’t encourage people to just blindly trust fixed anchors either…
Can we?
Charly
—–Original Message—– From: Tom Jones [mailto:tom@jrat.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:01 PM To: canyons@egroups.com Subject: RE: [canyons group] New poll for canyons
Proper bolt replacement is a little beyond the scope of a simple informational brochure.
Actually, the same could be said of anchor evaluation. That is the subject that scares me the most.
Tom
On Wed, 25 October 2000, Mark wrote:
>
4. Proper Anchor Use includes anchor evaluation. How to place a proper bolt
shouldn’t even be discussed. > > So let’s say we have pulled our rope and have another 9 or 10 rapps left > and we do as you suggest and evaluate the anchors, which are often old > bolts, and determine that one is faulty. Are you suggesting that we keep > people in the dark as to the proper technique for bolt placement? Your 2 > sentences seem in conflict with one another. > > Mark Mallory > Kanab, UT > > > > Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association > http://www.canyoneering.net > > Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? > Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options. > > DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages. > > WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.
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Tom Jones
Proper bolt replacement is a little beyond the scope of a simple informational brochure.
Actually, the same could be said of anchor evaluation. That is the subject that scares me the most.
Tom
On Wed, 25 October 2000, Mark wrote:
> 4. Proper Anchor Use includes anchor evaluation. How to place a proper bolt
shouldn’t even be discussed.
So let’s say we have pulled our rope and have another 9 or 10 rapps left > and we do as you suggest and evaluate the anchors, which are often old > bolts, and determine that one is faulty. Are you suggesting that we keep > people in the dark as to the proper technique for bolt placement? Your 2 > sentences seem in conflict with one another.
Mark Mallory > Kanab, UT
Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association > http://www.canyoneering.net
> Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? > Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options.
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
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Mark
> 4. Proper Anchor Use includes anchor evaluation. How to place a proper bolt > shouldn’t even be discussed.
So let’s say we have pulled our rope and have another 9 or 10 rapps left and we do as you suggest and evaluate the anchors, which are often old bolts, and determine that one is faulty. Are you suggesting that we keep people in the dark as to the proper technique for bolt placement? Your 2 sentences seem in conflict with one another.
Mark Mallory Kanab, UT
Charly Oliver
Mark,
Not at all.
I think there are plenty of opportunities for people who are interested and motivated to learn the proper way to place a bolt.
Even though climbing, rappelling and bolts are all integral parts of the canyoning experience, it is my understanding that this brochure isn’t intended to teach people how to climb, how to rappel or how to place bolts . I understood that the intent of this brochure was to increase canyoners and potential canyoners awareness.
I just don’t think it is the place of this brochure to teach people how to place bolts.
C —–Original Message—– From: Mark [mailto:litlbear@xpressweb.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 3:21 PM To: canyons@egroups.com Subject: RE: [canyons group] New poll for canyons
> 4. Proper Anchor Use includes anchor evaluation. How to place a proper bolt > shouldn’t even be discussed.
So let’s say we have pulled our rope and have another 9 or 10 rapps left and we do as you suggest and evaluate the anchors, which are often old bolts, and determine that one is faulty. Are you suggesting that we keep people in the dark as to the proper technique for bolt placement? Your 2 sentences seem in conflict with one another.
Mark Mallory Kanab, UT
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Charly Oliver
I’m having a hard time choosing ten. I see too many of the choices all being parts of the same thing.
1. In my mind avoidance and response are both parts of Flash Flood Awareness. 2. Hypothermia/Dehydration. Opposite ends of the same spectrum and could even fall under survival skills. 3. Rope Skills include both basic and specialized rope skills. 4. Proper Anchor Use includes anchor evaluation. How to place a proper bolt shouldn’t even be discussed. 5. Appropriate Equipment should include both gear and attire. 6. Common Sense includes, knowing your limits and making time requirement and difficulty judgements. 7. Skills set should include, water, navigation, first aid, survival and technical rescue. 8. Accurate beta. Use all resources available and take all beta with a grain of salt.
Ok. I come up with eight.
Charly
—–Original Message—– From: canyons@egroups.com [mailto:canyons@egroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 6:54 PM To: canyons@egroups.com Subject: [canyons group] New poll for canyons
Enter your vote today! Check out the new poll for the canyons group:
Several people are in the process of writing pieces of the brochure we discussed. Someone suggested a poll to ascertain what safety issues are most important to address in this brochure. >From the following list, please vote for what you consider the 10 most important safety issues in canyoneering. Your comments are also invited.
o Flash Flood Awareness o Flash Flood Avoidance o Flash Flood Response o Hypothermia o Hyperthermia/Dehydration o Basic Rope Skills o Specialized Rope Skills o Water Skills o Anchor Evaluation o Proper Anchor Use o Proper Bolt Placement o Navigation Skills o Survival Skills o First Aid Skills o Technical Rescue Skills o Appropriate Equipment o Appropriate Attire o Knowing Personal Limits o Misjudging Time Requirements o Misjudging Difficulty o Accurate Canyon Beta o Good Old Common Sense
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://www.egroups.com/polls/canyons
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups web site listed above.
Thanks!
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Mark Mallory
Care and Feeding of a Hammer-Drill
canyons@egroups.com
Enter your vote today! Check out the new poll for the canyons group:
Several people are in the process of writing pieces of the brochure we discussed. Someone suggested a poll to ascertain what safety issues are most important to address in this brochure. From the following list, please vote for what you consider the 10 most important safety issues in canyoneering. Your comments are also invited.
o Flash Flood Awareness o Flash Flood Avoidance o Flash Flood Response o Hypothermia o Hyperthermia/Dehydration o Basic Rope Skills o Specialized Rope Skills o Water Skills o Anchor Evaluation o Proper Anchor Use o Proper Bolt Placement o Navigation Skills o Survival Skills o First Aid Skills o Technical Rescue Skills o Appropriate Equipment o Appropriate Attire o Knowing Personal Limits o Misjudging Time Requirements o Misjudging Difficulty o Accurate Canyon Beta o Good Old Common Sense
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://www.egroups.com/polls/canyons
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups web site listed above.
Thanks!
Beady See
I think the poll was useful as it fleshes out those of us who wear a helmit only sometimes. My excuse? Uhhh…several. Makes me hot. Makes me uncomfortable. I like the freedom of not wearing one. Takes up too much space in my pack. Makes me look funny (like I need any help with that one…).
Got busted last weekend climbing at the City of Rocks. A gal asked me, “where’s your helmit?” Well, was right on the ground next to my pack. And off I went without it. Maybe its like ridin’ a motorscooter….I just like to feel the wind in my hair. Another part of me wonders about participating in a sport that is dangerous enough that I need to be wearing a helmit. Hmmm…
But….last time I canyon’ed, I had one on. So for me…the answer is “sometimes”.
Good dialogue, Rich.
Another question: How many folks would refuse to canyoneer with someone who wasn’t wearing a helmit?
Brian in SLC
>I agree with Hank on this one. The poll is too limited in choices >to get worthwile data on helmet-wearing behavior.
I always wear a helmet when ropes are being used, clamboring up or >down 4th class or higher drops which don’t necessarily require a rope >or at any other time that I feel there’s significant rockfall danger.
Many canyon hikes have sections where you’re hiking on mesa tops >or wide shallow washes with nothing but blue skies above you, in >which >cases I do not wear a helmet. However, I consider these sections to >be a part of the canyoneering experience, so I guess I can’t honestly >answer “always” in the poll.
Does “always” mean from the instant I leave the car to the time I >return to it?
More clarification required.
It’s a good poll, though. Helmets are very important, in my >opinion, and I would like to see what the current attitudes are on >wearing them. Especially considering the lengthy evac times involved >should even a minor head injury result while we’re way out in the >middle of nowhere and in areas that rescuers have difficulty >reaching. > Wearing a helmet could make an otherwise fatal head injury on an >unprotected head into nothing more than a temporary nuisance; or a >temporary nuisance into nothing at all. They have saved my life on a >couple of occassions, so I never leave home without one!
Another plus is that if a rescuer reaches one of us who’s injured and >we’re wearing a helmet, it shows them that we being more responsible. > It’d be just one less thing for them to use as an example should >they >decide to talk bad about us. It’s kinda like Highway Patrolmen and >EMS crews when they arrive at a car wreck and see that the guy who’s >messed up or dead wasn’t wearing their seatbelt. They’ll think the >victim was an idiot for not wearing it. On the other hand, if the >dead guy was wearing their seatbelt, they give them way more respect >and sympathy.
Matt
— In canyons@egroups.com, hmoon@p… wrote: >> How about a wider spectrum. I nearly always wear a helmet, so I >would not >> want to answer “sometimes” which clearly gives the impression of >> infrequency and a certain degree of carelessness. Suggest “most of >the >> time” after “always” >
> hank >
> —- >
> Enter your vote today! Check out the new poll for the canyons >> group: >
> Do you wear a helmet when canyoneering? >
> o Always >> o Sometimes >> o Never
Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association >http://www.canyoneering.net
>Getting too much email from the Canyons Group? >Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options.
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email >to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
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Matt Moore
I agree with Hank on this one. The poll is too limited in choices to get worthwile data on helmet-wearing behavior.
I always wear a helmet when ropes are being used, clamboring up or down 4th class or higher drops which don’t necessarily require a rope or at any other time that I feel there’s significant rockfall danger.
Many canyon hikes have sections where you’re hiking on mesa tops or wide shallow washes with nothing but blue skies above you, in which cases I do not wear a helmet. However, I consider these sections to be a part of the canyoneering experience, so I guess I can’t honestly answer “always” in the poll.
Does “always” mean from the instant I leave the car to the time I return to it?
More clarification required.
It’s a good poll, though. Helmets are very important, in my opinion, and I would like to see what the current attitudes are on wearing them. Especially considering the lengthy evac times involved should even a minor head injury result while we’re way out in the middle of nowhere and in areas that rescuers have difficulty reaching. Wearing a helmet could make an otherwise fatal head injury on an unprotected head into nothing more than a temporary nuisance; or a temporary nuisance into nothing at all. They have saved my life on a couple of occassions, so I never leave home without one!
Another plus is that if a rescuer reaches one of us who’s injured and we’re wearing a helmet, it shows them that we being more responsible. It’d be just one less thing for them to use as an example should they decide to talk bad about us. It’s kinda like Highway Patrolmen and EMS crews when they arrive at a car wreck and see that the guy who’s messed up or dead wasn’t wearing their seatbelt. They’ll think the victim was an idiot for not wearing it. On the other hand, if the dead guy was wearing their seatbelt, they give them way more respect and sympathy.
Matt
— In canyons@egroups.com, hmoon@p… wrote: > How about a wider spectrum. I nearly always wear a helmet, so I would not > want to answer “sometimes” which clearly gives the impression of > infrequency and a certain degree of carelessness. Suggest “most of the > time” after “always”
hank
—-
Enter your vote today! Check out the new poll for the canyons > group:
> Do you wear a helmet when canyoneering?
> o Always > o Sometimes > o Never
hmoon@petzl.com
How about a wider spectrum. I nearly always wear a helmet, so I would not want to answer “sometimes” which clearly gives the impression of infrequency and a certain degree of carelessness. Suggest “most of the time” after “always” hank —- Enter your vote today! Check out the new poll for the canyons group: Do you wear a helmet when canyoneering? o Always o Sometimes o Never
James Thompson
sometimes —–Original Message—–
From: canyons@egroups.com [mailto:canyons@egroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 3:59 AM
To: canyons@egroups.com
Subject: [canyons] New poll for canyons
Enter your vote today! Check out the new poll for the canyons
group:
Do you wear a helmet when canyoneering?
o Always
o Sometimes
o Never
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://www.egroups.com/polls/canyons
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups
web site listed above.
Thanks!
Sponsored by the American Canyoneering Association
http://www.canyoneering.net
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Don’t unsubscribe; change your email options.
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email
to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
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canyons@egroups.com
Enter your vote today! Check out the new poll for the canyons group:
Do you wear a helmet when canyoneering?
o Always o Sometimes o Never
To vote, please visit the following web page:
http://www.egroups.com/polls/canyons
Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the eGroups web site listed above.
Thanks!