Hi Tim, Facts essentially correct but will add this:
Don was at the other anchor about 20-25 feet away when he heard and noticed that Galen was stuck. He yelled once but was unable to hear anything so while he disconnected he yelled to me that we needed to get down to Galen. I am not totally sure on how we blocked the other side (my memory still cannot bring up that image) but we did in it about 20 seconds and Don was over the edge to assist Galen. Just as he was about to go over he looked down, saw Galen was gone and he reversed and came back up. So we had an emergency, assessed the situation, came up with a remedy and executed it all within 1 minute. It helped that we had just finished the Canyon Rescue Course. And, Don was on his game also.
But the point about lowering our partner to his death might have happened, IF, we had set the anchor in contingency mode.
The water flow was strong but there was no hydraulic to worry about at the bottom so we decided not to use one. I guess in this case we were fortunate.
bruce from bryce
P.S. Galen gets very high marks for extricating his foot from the stuck boot when he realized he was going to go upside down. When your life is in your hands you can accomplish a whole lot more.
To: canyons@yahoogroups.comFrom: frisbeedog02@yahoo.comDate: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:25:33 -0700Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: new subject contingency anchors
RichI think people should be very careful when exercising the ‘contingency’ part of a contingency anchor.Here’s a story I heard from Galen. If I’m getting the details wrong it doesn’t really matter, the point is the same.On a recent ACA rondy to Arizona someone got a foot stuck while rapping the waterfall in the Jug. He was apparently in some distress as he was in the watery part. The anchor was (perhaps luckily) not set up in contingency mode. As the rapeller struggled unsucessfully to free himself, the crew at the top struggled mightily to remember what you taught them about changing over to a lowering system so they could lower their comrade. Communication was nonexistant due to the victim’s location under water.By the time our heros finally got a plan together the victim had escaped.Had the anchor been set in contingency mode and the crew released it, the rappeller may very well have inverted and drowned.I’m not arguing against contingency anchors. I’m just warning that there are dangers involved (especially when there is no communication) and that people should be careful before they take control of someone else’s descent.Tim
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Kurt
If we go back to the original theme of this post, I believe it might be better to suggest further training rather than recomending caution. Caution is a good thing but if you use it instead of tools from the toolbox then cautions become fears. —– Original Message —– From: Tom Jones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:20 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: new subject contingency anchors
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Kurt” wrote: > > Tom > A lot of your problems can be solved simply.
Ah, if only it were so…
> 1) Any rescue anchor needs to be bomber and beyond
I have little choice at which anchor a rescue will be required. The only real rescue I have done in the field, there was no anchor, so we used available meat.
For those who are very practiced in a pickoff, perhaps it is a good choice of rescue manuever. For the rest of us… I recommend caution.
Tom
————
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Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Kurt” wrote:
Tom > A lot of your problems can be solved simply.
Ah, if only it were so…
> 1) Any rescue anchor needs to be bomber and beyond
I have little choice at which anchor a rescue will be required. The only real rescue I have done in the field, there was no anchor, so we used available meat.
For those who are very practiced in a pickoff, perhaps it is a good choice of rescue manuever. For the rest of us… I recommend caution.
Tom
desertres
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
An important part of any “rescue” scenario is a good assessment of > what is going on. If the ‘victim’ cannot be seen or communicated with > from above or below, and if possible, then someone should rap down to > where they can see the ‘victim’ before action is taken. It depends, > but, when a dangerous rappel is in the works, establishing lines of > communication are an important part of the safety plan.
Tom >
Thats why as I understand it a lot of people move to 2 way radios+self-rescue(eeks not that subject). If the first person down cant communicate or solve their problem, I would go straight for the pickoff, especially in a C canyon(and not a fakie C place like the LSA). OK, perhaps you see them like you said and a pickoff isnt needed…still thats what was started. But if they are stuck or their hair is stuck, how difficult is it to get to them? With the Petzl Stop, almost any rescue can be accomplished. But lets say you dont have a Petzl Stop and need to get the person and pick them off. Me? I dont know, but wrap something under and around both armpits, get it tied, attach that to you. Leg biners in place and cut their rope above them. In a crazy C situation, take a neat sheet and wrap it around their head(its breathable BTW). Then, wheres the medic?
If they are in a waterfall like Deer Creek or the water is just plain freezing how long before it gets bad? Of course anything is better than complete inaction and shrugging. I know myself, assuming no 7mm wetsuit, I gots like 20 mins top. Good thing to find out beforehand as well as hanging in a harness.
Kurt
Tom Probably done at least a dozen pick-offs. A lot of those were done in establishing a new technique. A lot of your problems can be solved simply. 1) Any rescue anchor needs to be bomber and beyond 2)refer to 1 3) Calmness and a positive attitude may influence the victim(or not) Having confidence in your system helps also. 4)Weight can be overcome by technique 5)Rope protection (pre-planning) or previous training. 6)Not hard to overcome with technique. 7)Not following the anchor geometry past #1. agree differant canyons will make pick-offs more problamatic.(rappelers position etc.) 8)quit getting agitated —– Original Message —– From: Tom Jones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:58 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: new subject contingency anchors
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Kurt” wrote: > > I guess I don’t understand where pick-offs are difficult to > execute?? Or dangerous? Once again having a extra “rope equal to > your rap length helps. Much more problamatic in a dry canyon to > use the victims rope.
How many pick-offs have you executed, Kurt? I’ve done 4 or 5 – 2 in class and 2 or 3 when demonstrating the technique. It is a complex technique with many details that need to be correct, thus it requires practice to keep it honed (as with any technique).
But, there are specific things that make it more dangerous than perhaps other rescue techniques:
1. The rescuer is no longer on EZ ground strapped to an anchor, but is hanging from a rope; 2. The anchor is loaded at 2X (rescuer + rescuee); 3. The rescuer is within reach of the possibly panicked, possibly injured, possibly irrational person. pp, pi, pi people are unpredictable. I don’t like having unpredictable people around me when I’m on rappel. 4. The rescuee might out-weigh you by a substantial amount of poundage. In this case, weight makes a difference. 5. The rescue rope is loaded with 2X, and might be grinding across a sharp edge. With 2X on it, the cutting action might be considerably higher than you had expected. 6. I don’t have a whole lot of practice rappelling with 2X weight, and would basically have to guess. If I have a Pirana, I’m in luck, because I can guess well with that. If I have forgotten my Pirana that day, I guess less-well with other devices. 7. Non-ideal rappel and anchor geometry could make a pick-off particularly difficult. 8. Seems like I would most likely need it when I am tired and agitated already.
Tom
> Are you refering to the increase of needed friction for 2? > I invented a new system a couple of weeks ago that differs from the taught ACA method, friction is a non-issue for anyone less than say—400lbs. > —– Original Message —– > From: Tom Jones > To: Yahoo Canyons Group > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:21 PM > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: new subject contingency anchors > > > — In Yahoo Canyons Group, bruce silliman wrote:
One concept of the contingency anchor I have always had a problem
with is the person who gets hurt while rappelling, or is in some
way incapacitated. That contingency, however it is set up, is not
going to help because the person cannot tie off. A person gets
their hair stuck in the rappel device. Do you execute a lower or
a pickoff? Yes, I know that it “depends”. > > Two ways to get ‘incapacitated’ while rappelling. One way has you > stuck on the rope – and the contingency anchor can be substantially > useful in these situations. The other has you excessively not- stuck > on the rope, in which case you are now lying on the ground and > severly injured – in which case the contingency anchor is not > particularly useful, but doesn’t hurt much either. > > I’m not sure what your claim is here, Bruce? Yes the contingency > anchor is only useful for a certain, small set of emergencies. You > want a more powerful tool? You now have your full toolbox of Canyon > Rescue techniques available – the ‘full set’ is more powerful, but > of the full set, the contingency anchor (and/or conversion to a > lower) is among the most useful. > > A pickoff? It depends, but in general a pickoff might be your tool > of last resort. Pickoffs with adults are difficult to execute and > dangerous to both rescuer and rescuee, and not particularly fast. > Other options should be considered first. With kids – a little > easier and safer – but still. Run the math – rarely the best > solution. (But a good tool to have in the toolbox, and keep honed > by practicing). > > Tom > > > > > > ————————- ———– > > Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam: > Spam > Not spam > Forget previous vote > > > >
————
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Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Kurt” wrote:
I guess I don’t understand where pick-offs are difficult to > execute?? Or dangerous? Once again having a extra “rope equal to > your rap length helps. Much more problamatic in a dry canyon to > use the victims rope.
How many pick-offs have you executed, Kurt? I’ve done 4 or 5 – 2 in class and 2 or 3 when demonstrating the technique. It is a complex technique with many details that need to be correct, thus it requires practice to keep it honed (as with any technique).
But, there are specific things that make it more dangerous than perhaps other rescue techniques:
1. The rescuer is no longer on EZ ground strapped to an anchor, but is hanging from a rope; 2. The anchor is loaded at 2X (rescuer + rescuee); 3. The rescuer is within reach of the possibly panicked, possibly injured, possibly irrational person. pp, pi, pi people are unpredictable. I don’t like having unpredictable people around me when I’m on rappel. 4. The rescuee might out-weigh you by a substantial amount of poundage. In this case, weight makes a difference. 5. The rescue rope is loaded with 2X, and might be grinding across a sharp edge. With 2X on it, the cutting action might be considerably higher than you had expected. 6. I don’t have a whole lot of practice rappelling with 2X weight, and would basically have to guess. If I have a Pirana, I’m in luck, because I can guess well with that. If I have forgotten my Pirana that day, I guess less-well with other devices. 7. Non-ideal rappel and anchor geometry could make a pick-off particularly difficult. 8. Seems like I would most likely need it when I am tired and agitated already.
Tom
> Are you refering to the increase of needed friction for 2? > I invented a new system a couple of weeks ago that differs from the taught ACA method, friction is a non-issue for anyone less than say—400lbs. > —– Original Message —– > From: Tom Jones > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:21 PM > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: new subject contingency anchors
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, bruce silliman wrote: >
> One concept of the contingency anchor I have always had a problem > > with is the person who gets hurt while rappelling, or is in some > > way incapacitated. That contingency, however it is set up, is not > > going to help because the person cannot tie off. A person gets > > their hair stuck in the rappel device. Do you execute a lower or > > a pickoff? Yes, I know that it “depends”.
Two ways to get ‘incapacitated’ while rappelling. One way has you > stuck on the rope – and the contingency anchor can be substantially > useful in these situations. The other has you excessively not- stuck > on the rope, in which case you are now lying on the ground and > severly injured – in which case the contingency anchor is not > particularly useful, but doesn’t hurt much either.
I’m not sure what your claim is here, Bruce? Yes the contingency > anchor is only useful for a certain, small set of emergencies. You > want a more powerful tool? You now have your full toolbox of Canyon > Rescue techniques available – the ‘full set’ is more powerful, but > of the full set, the contingency anchor (and/or conversion to a > lower) is among the most useful.
A pickoff? It depends, but in general a pickoff might be your tool > of last resort. Pickoffs with adults are difficult to execute and > dangerous to both rescuer and rescuee, and not particularly fast. > Other options should be considered first. With kids – a little > easier and safer – but still. Run the math – rarely the best > solution. (But a good tool to have in the toolbox, and keep honed > by practicing).
Tom
– ———–
Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam: > Spam > Not spam > Forget previous vote
> >
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Roger Arhart wrote:
> new subject: contingency anchors I have started using contingency > anchors on almost all rappels. A contingency anchor has significant > benefits over the standard static block, for example, a clove hitch > on a biner.
Good discussion, Roger. Thanks for starting it.
I’d like to suggest that the more useful takeaway is:
TRAINING IS GOOD. HAVING MORE WAYS TO DO THINGS, UNDERSTANDING THEM, PRACTICING THEM, ETC. IS GOOD!
I worry that a lot of people out there are doing canyons with very little in the way of ‘contingency’ technique. YES, if everything goes right (and it usually does), things are fine. But young Ram, for instance, struggles to extract himself from a bit of a pickle – but it is a common pickle and requires only ‘beginner’ techniques to un- pickle. This lad has been canyoneering how long??? Yes, his tuteledge has not emphasized ropework skills (cough cough, *slight* understatement), but just enough to get by. How many of our friends and canyon companions are similarly under-tool-boxed?
Conversion from a biner block to a lower, when the anchor is in a convenient location, is pretty fast and easy. Using meat anchors set up for contingent/lowering use (when the ‘real’ anchor is in an inconvenient spot, or not yet built) has become standard fare among my crowd.
Yes, the contingency anchor is a powerful tool. I prefer using the Munter-Mule myself, rather than carrying a piece of hardware JUST for this purpose, but whatever floats your boat.
But really, what REALLY works, is having a good selection of well- oiled tools in your toolbox. I worry that many people who lead canyons have only a small mishmash of rusty tools in their toolbox.
Tom
p.s. That Guided Rappel can be a powerful tool too, AND can add a lot of fun to an otherwise dull descent. (ha ha ha).
Kurt
I guess I don’t understand where pick-offs are difficult to execute?? Or dangerous? Once again having a extra “rope equal to your rap length helps. Much more problamatic in a dry canyon to use the victims rope. Are you refering to the increase of needed friction for 2? I invented a new system a couple of weeks ago that differs from the taught ACA method, friction is a non-issue for anyone less than say—400lbs. —– Original Message —– From: Tom Jones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:21 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: new subject contingency anchors
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, bruce silliman wrote: > > One concept of the contingency anchor I have always had a problem > with is the person who gets hurt while rappelling, or is in some > way incapacitated. That contingency, however it is set up, is not > going to help because the person cannot tie off. A person gets > their hair stuck in the rappel device. Do you execute a lower or > a pickoff? Yes, I know that it “depends”.
Two ways to get ‘incapacitated’ while rappelling. One way has you stuck on the rope – and the contingency anchor can be substantially useful in these situations. The other has you excessively not-stuck on the rope, in which case you are now lying on the ground and severly injured – in which case the contingency anchor is not particularly useful, but doesn’t hurt much either.
I’m not sure what your claim is here, Bruce? Yes the contingency anchor is only useful for a certain, small set of emergencies. You want a more powerful tool? You now have your full toolbox of Canyon Rescue techniques available – the ‘full set’ is more powerful, but of the full set, the contingency anchor (and/or conversion to a lower) is among the most useful.
A pickoff? It depends, but in general a pickoff might be your tool of last resort. Pickoffs with adults are difficult to execute and dangerous to both rescuer and rescuee, and not particularly fast. Other options should be considered first. With kids – a little easier and safer – but still. Run the math – rarely the best solution. (But a good tool to have in the toolbox, and keep honed by practicing).
Tom
————
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Kurt
O.K.–We’ve established a base now anyway. “A pullcord is somewhat better than nothing.”
—– Original Message —– From: Tom Jones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 5:13 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: new subject contingency anchors
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Kurt” wrote: > > Also any system used(toss&go,biner block,etc) can be converted to > a raise(haul) or lower system. It’s a few more steps than being > pre-rigged for contingency but very do-able. The key may be having > the right gear(canyon specific) and the knowledge to use the right > gear(toolbox).
Agree, Senor 7, with some contingencies…
Rigging Toss-and-Tangle severely limits your rescue/assistance options unless one also carries a rescue rope (or has at least 1X of available rope at the top of the drop). Same, of course goes with a biner block, but having resources available at the top ‘seems’ more likely when using a biner block.
Of course, the more general statement is: if you don’t have resources at the top of the drop (1X length of REAL rope, rather than pull cord), technique to do something useful (ie, tools in the toolbox) – then you really won’t be able to do squat.
> Using a pullcord always reduces your options.(or makes your > options less safe)
Carrying a pullcord always INCREASES your options (over carrying nothing).
Tom
————
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Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, bruce silliman wrote:
One concept of the contingency anchor I have always had a problem > with is the person who gets hurt while rappelling, or is in some > way incapacitated. That contingency, however it is set up, is not > going to help because the person cannot tie off. A person gets > their hair stuck in the rappel device. Do you execute a lower or > a pickoff? Yes, I know that it “depends”.
Two ways to get ‘incapacitated’ while rappelling. One way has you stuck on the rope – and the contingency anchor can be substantially useful in these situations. The other has you excessively not-stuck on the rope, in which case you are now lying on the ground and severly injured – in which case the contingency anchor is not particularly useful, but doesn’t hurt much either.
I’m not sure what your claim is here, Bruce? Yes the contingency anchor is only useful for a certain, small set of emergencies. You want a more powerful tool? You now have your full toolbox of Canyon Rescue techniques available – the ‘full set’ is more powerful, but of the full set, the contingency anchor (and/or conversion to a lower) is among the most useful.
A pickoff? It depends, but in general a pickoff might be your tool of last resort. Pickoffs with adults are difficult to execute and dangerous to both rescuer and rescuee, and not particularly fast. Other options should be considered first. With kids – a little easier and safer – but still. Run the math – rarely the best solution. (But a good tool to have in the toolbox, and keep honed by practicing).
Tom
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Kurt” wrote:
Also any system used(toss&go,biner block,etc) can be converted to > a raise(haul) or lower system. It’s a few more steps than being > pre-rigged for contingency but very do-able. The key may be having > the right gear(canyon specific) and the knowledge to use the right > gear(toolbox).
Agree, Senor 7, with some contingencies…
Rigging Toss-and-Tangle severely limits your rescue/assistance options unless one also carries a rescue rope (or has at least 1X of available rope at the top of the drop). Same, of course goes with a biner block, but having resources available at the top ‘seems’ more likely when using a biner block.
Of course, the more general statement is: if you don’t have resources at the top of the drop (1X length of REAL rope, rather than pull cord), technique to do something useful (ie, tools in the toolbox) – then you really won’t be able to do squat.
> Using a pullcord always reduces your options.(or makes your > options less safe)
Carrying a pullcord always INCREASES your options (over carrying nothing).
Tom
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Tim Hoover wrote:
Rich
I think people should be very careful when exercising > the ‘contingency’ part of a contingency anchor. > Si, Senor Hoover.
An important part of any “rescue” scenario is a good assessment of what is going on. If the ‘victim’ cannot be seen or communicated with from above or below, and if possible, then someone should rap down to where they can see the ‘victim’ before action is taken. It depends, but, when a dangerous rappel is in the works, establishing lines of communication are an important part of the safety plan.
Tom
hank moon
Hey, was Darrel wearing the 5.10 Canyoneer CFS?
Contingency Foot Stuck…
Rich Carlson
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, bruce silliman wrote:
> Hi Tim, > Facts essentially correct but will add this:
Don was at the other anchor about 20-25 feet away when he heard and noticed that Galen was stuck.
It was Darrel who was stuck.
Sidebar: He posted a request for the return of his shoe. I understand someone did find it a few weeks later after the water level dropped.