Hey Rick,
The thing you need to worry about and watch is that with a dynamic rope, the stretch can cause some things to watch. First, since the rope stretches more, it saws more on edges or on slickrock. With edge pro, or careful watch of the ropes, this can be fine – especially since climbing ropes are generally thicker and more durable. (This could also cause more damage to the rock, which should be taken into consideration when placing/pulling…)
The other thing to watch out for is if you are having someone on the ground be your anchor (where the rope comes up and through the ring, and then you rap on that – I’ve done this for many tricky pulls), the extra rope stretch can make getting on the rappel more interesting.
As you already mentioned, they also absorb more water and weigh a lot more when they do.
That’s what I can think of right now…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rick Pratt”
So maybe this comment will steer this conversation in a slightly different > direction. Someone mentioned using old climbing ropes. That’s what we do. > Now mind you we have yet to tackle class C canyons and we don’t explore > without beta. We are content to descend canyons that you all have opened up > for us and we find that most of you are quite good at measuring rap lengths. > So to save weight and still have some back up as we tend to bring ropes of > the “ideal” length. We have a large assortment of 9, 10 & 11 mm ropes all > cut to various lengths and others ready to be cut as we finally retire these > old ropes. Most are cut to length based on the condition of the rope > itself. And we almost always carry an extra. All in all we carry less rope > in most canyons than two 50 or 60 meter length but often they are large > ropes. We never have really found it necessary to reduce our weight as we > are usually several people and have yet to descend many long canyons. (We > have good static ropes of standard lengths for certain canyons and when we > take on really long days we consider more carefully what we are bringing > recognizing what Ram has noted in his comments regarding how safety can be > increased with less fatigue and moving faster etc.)
So now the question is: what do you all think about using retired climbing > ropes? Yes we know that ascending a dynamic rope takes more energy and > thankfully we have had that extra energy when it was needed. And yes these > ropes can be heavy if wet potentially removing the weight savings so we work > at keeping them dry. (We finally really got it about using a rope bag > instead of always “throw and go.”) And of course they are aging ropes so we > keep a very careful eye on their condition and have learned to move the rope > between raps when the contact point is potentially damaging.
What else should we be worrying about or thinking about in using old > climbing ropes?
Thanks,
Rick
>
WB
I can testify that my ca. 1995 Mammut 8.5 doubles (nylon of course) floated for quite some time. That is, uhh, until they didn’t. Said sinking happened right after I said “don’t worry, it floats” whereas my rope headed straight for the bottom. But hey, I found it 22 months later still half coiled. Then used it for seven years until sheath damage. Cut in half then and now I’m looking at cutting again looking at more sheath damage. Or maybe retirement. I think I’ve gotten my money’s worth out of this rope. With a modicum of care you can get very good service out of old climbing ropes.
Anyway, the moral of the story is don’t expect that just because your rope floated last time that it will next time. Or maybe don’t say that it floats. And really don’t wash a dry rope with any kind of soap or detergent.
-Bill
On Aug 23, 2010, at 7:54 PM, TomJones wrote:
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Brian in SLC” wrote: >
>> As you already mentioned, they also absorb more water and weigh a lot more when they do. >
> Not noticed that. My old ice climbing ropes had a standard dry treatment on them, and, they floated like a cork (until, uhh, they got more worn out). >
> Why does a dynamic rope absorb more water?
Tom==> Dynamic climbing ropes are nylon, which is naturally water-absorbant. Static Canyoneering ropes are polyester, which is naturally hydrophobic (to some extent). My experience is that with not much wear, super-dry ice-climbing ropes absorb plenty of water, but my experience is largely with returned ropes at BD, which were probably already well-used.
TomJones
Throwin’ in a few comments:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Brian in SLC” wrote:
I guess I’ve seen a ton of rope damage over the years. Worst was on a static line (eh, Tom?). Old thin twin/double climbing ropes aren’t that durable but, they start out by being fairly thin to begin with. Mostly rodeo starts that ate their sheaths, not stretch related.
Tom==> Yup, but there is also a big variety of performance in “static” ropes. That rope you got I think was kinda bouncy for a static rope, but then again, the real problem was the bad technique of the guy on rappel (uh, that would be me!).
Don’t most static ropes have thicker sheaths? Seems like I recall some stat’s where some static ropes have 25% of their strength in the sheath or some such.
Tom==> Your standard “static” rope is 50% sheath, 50% core. So the sheath is WAY thicker than a dynamic climbing rope.
> As you already mentioned, they also absorb more water and weigh a lot more when they do.
Not noticed that. My old ice climbing ropes had a standard dry treatment on them, and, they floated like a cork (until, uhh, they got more worn out).
Why does a dynamic rope absorb more water?
Tom==> Dynamic climbing ropes are nylon, which is naturally water-absorbant. Static Canyoneering ropes are polyester, which is naturally hydrophobic (to some extent). My experience is that with not much wear, super-dry ice-climbing ropes absorb plenty of water, but my experience is largely with returned ropes at BD, which were probably already well-used.
On any given day in the U.S., my bet is climbers rappel on climbing ropes with a MUCH higher frequency than canyoneers on static ropes. You really don’t hear about climbers complaining about rope stretch and damaging ropes on rappel. Pretty uncommon topic on the climbing boards. Its interesting that some folks think its an “issue” related to canyoneering, especially in dry canyons.
-Brian in SLC >
Tom==> Different kind of rappels, different ropes, different folks. Hard to see the relevance.
Tom
adventure_geek
> Any rope, with repeated loading over an edge, can be damaged. More > user error if folks are “bouncing” on a dynamic or static rope.
Yes, but dynamic ropes are bouncier, so you just have to be a little more careful.
> I guess I’ve seen a ton of rope damage over the years. Worst was > on a static line (eh, Tom?). Old thin twin/double climbing ropes > aren’t that durable but, they start out by being fairly thin to > begin with. Mostly rodeo starts that ate their sheaths, not > stretch related.
Rodeo starts, bouncing, and not watching rope placement will kill any type of rope. He asked for differences, and I gave him some things I’ve noticed…
> Don’t most static ropes have thicker sheaths? Seems like I recall > some stat’s where some static ropes have 25% of their strength in > the sheath or some such.
My experience is that the static ropes I’ve used (BW, New England, > PMI) all have had thicker sheaths than any of my dynamic climbing > ropes.
Yes, I believe static ropes do have thicker sheaths, but it’s a proportion to diameter of rope. Most of my climbing ropes are still around 10mm diameter, and most of my canyon ropes are around 8mm diameter. Thus, even though the canyon rope may have a thicker proportion of sheath; I’ve noticed that thicker ropes last longer. (To be honest, I haven’t really measured my blown 10mm climbing ropes vs my blown 8mm canyon ropes to see which ones have the thicker sheaths.) Frankly, I don’t really care. I just said to watch the rope (which you should be doing regarless of static or dynamic) to make sure it’s not damaged prior to embarking into a canyon…
In the end, I was typing in a hurry (still am), but was trying to express thickness related to my experience on canyon lines. If you are using an old Blue Water 11mm static line (I’ve had a few of those from my vertical caving days, and they are bomber) then it’s a different story. But I’m talking about my current scenario where my canyon ropes are 8mm and my climbing ropes are 10mm…
> Not noticed that. My old ice climbing ropes had a standard dry > treatment on them, and, they floated like a cork (until, uhh, they > got more worn out).
Why does a dynamic rope absorb more water?
I believe most climbing ropes are made of nylon; which absorbs more water than the polyester canyoneering ropes. I’ve definitely used climbing and canyon ropes; and my old climbing ropes seem to absorb and hold WAY more water (and thus, weigh much more wet) and take longer to dry out. Sure, if the climbing ropes are new enough to still have the dry/golden dry/double dry coatings, then maybe they won’t absorb as much water. But I only take my retired climbing ropes canyoneering; which is what the original poster was inquiring about as well…
> On any given day in the U.S., my bet is climbers rappel on climbing > ropes with a MUCH higher frequency than canyoneers on static > ropes. You really don’t hear about climbers complaining about rope > stretch and damaging ropes on rappel. Pretty uncommon topic on the > climbing boards. Its interesting that some folks think its > an “issue” related to canyoneering, especially in dry canyons.
Climbing anchors are, in general, much closer to you when you start your rappel. Stretch only occurs with distance. As for damaging ropes, I’ve seen both climbing and canyon ropes damaged; more from bouncing than stretch, but again, if it’s a dynamic line, it’s stretchier and thus, has more capability to bounce. YMMV.
-Brian in SLC >
Brian in SLC
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adventure_geek” wrote: > The thing you need to worry about and watch is that with a dynamic rope, the stretch can cause some things to watch. First, since the rope stretches more, it saws more on edges or on slickrock.
Any rope, with repeated loading over an edge, can be damaged. More user error if folks are “bouncing” on a dynamic or static rope.
I guess I’ve seen a ton of rope damage over the years. Worst was on a static line (eh, Tom?). Old thin twin/double climbing ropes aren’t that durable but, they start out by being fairly thin to begin with. Mostly rodeo starts that ate their sheaths, not stretch related.
>With edge pro, or careful watch of the ropes, this can be fine – especially since climbing ropes are generally thicker and more durable.
Don’t most static ropes have thicker sheaths? Seems like I recall some stat’s where some static ropes have 25% of their strength in the sheath or some such.
My experience is that the static ropes I’ve used (BW, New England, PMI) all have had thicker sheaths than any of my dynamic climbing ropes.
> As you already mentioned, they also absorb more water and weigh a lot more when they do.
Not noticed that. My old ice climbing ropes had a standard dry treatment on them, and, they floated like a cork (until, uhh, they got more worn out).
Why does a dynamic rope absorb more water?
On any given day in the U.S., my bet is climbers rappel on climbing ropes with a MUCH higher frequency than canyoneers on static ropes. You really don’t hear about climbers complaining about rope stretch and damaging ropes on rappel. Pretty uncommon topic on the climbing boards. Its interesting that some folks think its an “issue” related to canyoneering, especially in dry canyons.
-Brian in SLC