Why? Why take the chance? Why leave a piece of burned webbing behind that you pulled your rope through for some unsuspecting novice to use a year later after 5 more parties pull their ropes through your webbing? Of course this is all opinion, but IMHO running the rope through a new piece of 1″ and rap’in is basically safe. However, not at all a good habit and the life you end may not be your own. This is why I think it is good training to tell people to NEVER use webbing a.) that you don’t inspect and b.)NEVER EVER use webbing that you can see has had a rope pulled through it. The no rapid or ring deal is just bad form and those of us who are educated enough shouldn’t be leaving fixed webbing behind that is in that condition. Then again I don’t hold any canyoneering speed records either, but I am faster than Dick. ;-)~
Again, my opinion …. Neil
Shane Burrows shane@sisna.com> wrote: A pulley rappel is NOT what I would call a “common” rappelling technique. I have no doubt that you guys can whip up some strange contraption that will cut through webbing while rappelling………….but nobody does that when rappelling……………SO……………why are you guys trying to scare the kiddies with stories of death and destruction which are not true?
NOW, go back and read the original thread………..this is about safely rapping on two ropes of different construction or diameter and is it safe? The answer is YES, and you can do it without a rapid………..
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Ian Bailey
If is a concern about ropes moving and catching you unawares then a simple stopper knot in the end of both ropes would be the answer. However the bottom belay should be aware if one rope starts to move and grab hold off it. It is not going to pull out of his hands. I have many times abseiled on ropes with different diameters and over long distances, i.e. 100 metres or 320 US feet and I have never had a problem regardless of the type and the amount of friction at the belay end.
Ian
_____
From: rcwildone [mailto:rcwildone@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, 2 June 2003 12:57 AM To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Rick’s original question:
“Are there any problems with rapping on different diameter ropes and combining static and dynamic ropes? Say I have a 150 foot drop and my two 60’s are my canyon 9 mm and a 9.5 mm climbing rope. Other than wanting to use the static for the pull rope, are there any problems, dangers or pitfalls with this setup?”
Several people responded with very reasonable answers, pointing out that there probably isn’t much risk using the 9 and 9.5 combo. But we pointed out
that if the diameter difference is more significant, there can be serious risks because the two ropes can move through a rappelling device at different rates.
If the rope is run through a ring, there is very little friction to slow the
movement, creating a risk that the rappeller can reach the end of the thinner rope long before he/she reaches the ground. Can happen. Has happened. People have died.
If the rope is run directly over webbing — new, old, doesn’t matter — there is more friction to slow the movement, but there is still a risk that the moving rope could saw through the webbing. Can happen. Has happened. People have died.
Can a rappeller reduce the risk by keeping a very firm grip on both ropes? Yes. But it is foolish to set up any system without taking into account the possibility that the rappeller might lose control. Falling rock? Slippery wall? Moving water? It only takes an extra few seconds to set up a block or contingency anchor instead of a toss-and-go. A simple bottom belay can also mitigate the risk, at least for everyone but the first person down.
Are there folks out there who have rapped on different diameter ropes for many years without a problem? Of course. Skill? Dumb luck? Doesn’t matter. If this group is to have any value in promoting safety for canyoneers of all skill levels, readers should be made aware of the potential risks involved and provided with techniques to address those risks. Trying to convince anyone that the risks are irrelevant just doesn’t make any sense.
Rich
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Joe Wrona
Tommmmmmmm:
C’mon, man, unlike me, your role is to be nice on this site.
Look, all this talk about stuff that has almost nothing to do with real world canyoneering on the Plateau is what discredited the ACA in the first place. Three years ago, my computer would fill up with a bunch of poser-talk about what bolts to drill and what chains to hang. Now it fills up with endless drivel about rappelling.
You and Shane were both real gentlemen on my trip last year; moreover, you guys both respected my request to keep the slots I showed you private. I appreciated it then and still do. So please don’t bash each other on this site. Bash me instead. It’s more fun.
— Tom Jones tom@jrat.com> wrote: > You just trying to piss us off, Shane, or are you > really that stupid?
Perhaps Shane has reviewed ALL RAPPELS done by all > parties across ALL > TIME (we can, however, limit to planet earth). I > know he has > countless minions doing his bidding, still…
Shane – you have made it abundantly clear that YOU > cannot imagine > ANYONE EVER sawing through a piece of webbing on a > standard rappel. > Thanks for sharing.
I, on the other hand, perhaps have a more active > imagination. I can > imagine people sawing through a scavanged piece of > 9/16″ supertape. > Perhaps they are using a 10mm static line and an 8mm > dynamic line. > Perhaps the 8mm side is wet and sandy. Perhaps > their party size is > 12, and they reset the rap after each person goes > down. Perhaps such > a large party is concentrating on having fun, and > are doing > bouncy “commando rappels” and showing off.
And you’re telling me it CANNOT HAPPEN?
*cough**cough**cough*.
Get over it. You are welcome to your opinion, and > welcome to share > it. As a matter of etiquette, you are not welcome > to call BS on > other people’s OPINIONS.
Suffi?
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shane Burrows” > wrote:
>>If the rope is run directly over webbing — new, > old, doesn’t > matter —
there is more friction to slow the movement, but > there is still a > risk that
the moving rope could saw through the webbing. pointed out but > their is no way in hell you can saw through new 1″ > webbing using a > standard rappel.
>>Can happen. Has happened. People have died. 1″ webbing while > doing a standard rappel. Someone might have died > from other factors > but sawing through the webbing was not one of > them………..trying > to scare the kiddies again???
And just for the record, I believe that a rap ring > is preferred and > that a biner block is safer.
Shane
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Tom Jones
Thanks, Rich. An excellent summary.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rcwildone” wrote: > Rick’s original question: >
Tom Jones
You just trying to piss us off, Shane, or are you really that stupid?
Perhaps Shane has reviewed ALL RAPPELS done by all parties across ALL TIME (we can, however, limit to planet earth). I know he has countless minions doing his bidding, still…
Shane – you have made it abundantly clear that YOU cannot imagine ANYONE EVER sawing through a piece of webbing on a standard rappel. Thanks for sharing.
I, on the other hand, perhaps have a more active imagination. I can imagine people sawing through a scavanged piece of 9/16″ supertape. Perhaps they are using a 10mm static line and an 8mm dynamic line. Perhaps the 8mm side is wet and sandy. Perhaps their party size is 12, and they reset the rap after each person goes down. Perhaps such a large party is concentrating on having fun, and are doing bouncy “commando rappels” and showing off.
And you’re telling me it CANNOT HAPPEN?
*cough**cough**cough*.
Get over it. You are welcome to your opinion, and welcome to share it. As a matter of etiquette, you are not welcome to call BS on other people’s OPINIONS.
Suffi?
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shane Burrows” wrote:
>If the rope is run directly over webbing — new, old, doesn’t matter — > there is more friction to slow the movement, but there is still a risk that > the moving rope could saw through the webbing.
neil wilkinson
Shane, As for the original question … my only point about running your ropes directly through webbing is that it is not ideal for several reasons and I believe while teaching people it is best to point this out. So, maybe it is not about what you call ‘scaring the kiddies’ as it is attempting to pass on knowledge that is as safe as it can be. While you should be able to rap with your rope through ‘new’ webbing and feel good about it, it is still not a good habit to promote. You use this technique with some judgment it sounds, while some who read these posts may not exercise the restraint or situational awareness that you do and it might get someone hurt. Again it goes back to passing on techniques and information that are as safe as they can be. If we are thinking about the same ‘famous’ canyoneer/guide it would be of note that I think the anchor options change while ‘with clients’ and ‘just out for fun’. I’ve seen a few knots shoved in a few cracks that was very close to creative genius, but not what your average paying client is going to want to see.
But then again this is not part of the original question, just what I feel is a good point to think about, that is why I changed the subject line.
Neil
Shane Burrows shane@sisna.com> wrote: When questioned why, his response was that in a professional guiding situation it’s just not worth taking any chance.
But again, that was not part of the original question that was asked.
Shane
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Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages.
Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms of Service.
Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
rcwildone
Rick’s original question:
“Are there any problems with rapping on different diameter ropes and combining static and dynamic ropes? Say I have a 150 foot drop and my two 60’s are my canyon 9 mm and a 9.5 mm climbing rope. Other than wanting to use the static for the pull rope, are there any problems, dangers or pitfalls with this setup?”
Several people responded with very reasonable answers, pointing out that there probably isn’t much risk using the 9 and 9.5 combo. But we pointed out that if the diameter difference is more significant, there can be serious risks because the two ropes can move through a rappelling device at different rates.
If the rope is run through a ring, there is very little friction to slow the movement, creating a risk that the rappeller can reach the end of the thinner rope long before he/she reaches the ground. Can happen. Has happened. People have died.
If the rope is run directly over webbing — new, old, doesn’t matter — there is more friction to slow the movement, but there is still a risk that the moving rope could saw through the webbing. Can happen. Has happened. People have died.
Can a rappeller reduce the risk by keeping a very firm grip on both ropes? Yes. But it is foolish to set up any system without taking into account the possibility that the rappeller might lose control. Falling rock? Slippery wall? Moving water? It only takes an extra few seconds to set up a block or contingency anchor instead of a toss-and-go. A simple bottom belay can also mitigate the risk, at least for everyone but the first person down.
Are there folks out there who have rapped on different diameter ropes for many years without a problem? Of course. Skill? Dumb luck? Doesn’t matter. If this group is to have any value in promoting safety for canyoneers of all skill levels, readers should be made aware of the potential risks involved and provided with techniques to address those risks. Trying to convince anyone that the risks are irrelevant just doesn’t make any sense.
Rich
Shane Burrows
>>Why? Why take the chance?