I’ve let this simmer long enough; Joe, is this the Joe Wrona that I went thru Heaps with June 6th, 1999? Come on Joe, in my opinion you must have a personal vendetta? Yeah I’m a “Rap and Swim Kiddie” canyon buff and feel fairly comfortable with my skills; sure I’ve got more to learn and thats one reason I stick with it, but to belittle a person, come on! You must have come a long way since ’99’. I bet you use a thicker wetsuit now, so that hypothermia doesn’t detract from your total experience? Oh, and that last long drop, remember? When someone gives you a prussik to use as a backup you ought use it. It’ll keep you from wearing holes in your hand. You say that I should have given you a belay? Hey I’m just a “Rap and Swim Kiddie” I figured since I made it down without a belay, a seasoned “Canyoneer” might feel offended at such a gesture.I sure had a good time on that trip, and each time I take that hike I enjoy it just as much as the ” Wet “6-6-99” Heaps trip I did with you. I’m still a little baffled why you didn’t meet me at the Wildcat Canyon Trailhead at 5 AM for your first adventure down Kolob? Yeah it rained, so what, most people I know would have had the courtesy to at least meet up and cancel and set up another time. When are you going to show me Neon as you promised? You wanted to do Heaps with me last year again and may wonder why I couldn’t find the time? Think about it Joe! I still want to see Neon and some of the others you got me excited about. How ’bout’ it? I’m not trying to be rude Joe, but it would be an honor to hike once again with a seasoned “porcupine sluggin’, dyed in the tee-pee” veteran such as yourself. By the way my wife has done “The Subway” with me, she too is a “Rap and Swim Kiddie” but she only speaks Portuguese and doesn’t know what that means, she had a great time though! Bo
It is interesting to me that the pro-bolting group tends to be limited to rap ‘n swim canyoneers; i.e., those canyoneers with the most limited range of canyoneering experiences; rather than those canyoneers who are actually pushing their own standards. …the “authority” and alleged “wisdom” and “skill” of the rap ‘n swim kiddie canyoneering club in deciding bolting issues. This site is not the voice of veteran canyoneering and most of the vocal participants of this site are not now and have never been at the cutting edge of the discipline. Fortunately, some users are moving quickly up the ladder of experience in hard canyons, but far too many of the self-appointed “experts” and leaders” have never been either one and are now too old, too fat or just too timid to ever be one.
Bo Beck
—– Original Message —– From: Joe Wrona iko_iko_all_day@yahoo.com> To: Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group]Rap and Swim Kiddies
. I am surprised if it was June 6, primarily because I came > out of the Escalante backcountry the day before in a > snowstorm. That trip was for a Nat’l Geo Adventure > photo shoot and the photos have been published, so I > know I wasn’t hallucinating. But I trust your > accounting of the date because I know that you keep a > calendar of such things.
Have plenty of pictures Dave shot with the date imbedded, wanna see em’?
>I recall that our trip down > Heaps was a good trip. In fact, I recall that > afterwards you asked me to help you try to do Imlay in > a single push that same year. We then did so, and I > wore the same wetsuit. I still wear that wetsuit for > most of my Zion wet trips. In fact, I wore the 3/2 > wetsuit on our trash collecting trip through Heaps and > Imlay and slept in it through an overnight rainstorm > at the crossroads (my partners on that trip took > pictures which they can use to my detriment if they so > desire).
Yes that was a good trip, and Imlay went off well also. So where does the “rap and swim kiddies” fit in the picture? As to the wetsuit; you must have stored up some insulation, as you put it I think” fat and lazy?” as I remember we had to stop in the sunlight for a while to bring up the old body core temp. Maybe this is the cutting edge you talk about? ‘” I can still sorta function at core temp 87 deg.”? No, I respect your choice of what to wear or not to wear, but we are all suseptible and inclined to make mistakes, such as no gloves for hands, or no prussiks for backup.
> As for your comment about a belay, I am not sure what > you are suggesting. At the exit, we were using 8s as > descending devices. You told me that you were going > to provide some tension from the bottom, and then you > didn’t. While you and I discussed that fact > afterwards in friendly tones, I don’t think I ever > mentioned that part of the incident to anyone else. > The way I figured it, it was an honest mistake, and > the sincere apology that you gave was good enough for > me. That’s how I deal with trip partners.
See we do make mistakes whether we’re “rap and swim kiddies” or “elite seasoned canyoneers” such as yourself!
I don’t understand your comment about a prussik > either. I described that descent on this site over a > year ago, and the interesting feature was that I > couldn’t feel the injury while descending due to > numbness in that hand. That injury, which you and I > both marvelled at the next day in your shop, didn’t > occur due to a lack of a prussik; it occurred due to a > lack of biofeedback from my digits.
Yeah I remember my hands swelled up quite a bit also, had a hard time with a grip on the rope, so I wrapped the rope around my leg several times, allowed me to ease my grip a little since I was the first down, but you’re right, I should have given you a conditional belay from the bottom, and ever since then I always belay the second, third and so on……….
Your comment about the Kolob trip really baffles me. > You and I had agreed to try to do a one day trip > through Kolob using the MIA exit because neither of us > had used that particular route before. I drove > several hours to Zion from another part of the desert > to link up for that trip. Here is what I remember: On > our first scheduled date of departure, I drove up to > our meeting spot and you didn’t show.
You supposedly had camped out at the trailhead, yes I was 20 min. late, car overheated, continued all the way to Lava Point, didn’t pass you coming or going! When you replied to your voicemail (Alaska) sometime later, word was that something had come up in Park City and it needed your attention. Oh well, no hard feelings we all have priorities.
I called you > later that day and you said that your car couldn’t or > wouldn’t make it up the grade (Bo, I can’t remember if > you said that you had tried or that you knew it > wouldn’t due to the weather, so I don’t want to > mistate what happened). We agreed to try again (I > can’t remember if it was the next day or a few days > later, again, I don’t want to misstate what happened). > I waited around in Zion until the next scheduled > meeting, woke up at 4 am, and drove to our meeting > place. The weather was weak (but not that bad), and I > eventually assumed that you were not coming again, so > I drove back down. I called you a day or two later > and we discussed all of this. You also told me that > you had arrived at the rally point a little late, but > that the trip was good.
Mikel Nad, Steve Wallenfels and Myself, showed up again, but this time on time, you were nowhere to be found, sorry we missed you, It was a nice 10 hour trip thru Kolob.
I was happy for you and I > didn’t cop an attitude about the problems that we had > in hooking up. I recall the conversation being a good > one and we talked about a couple of other things that > we wanted to do together. Now, if I have missed a > detail or incorrectly stated something in this > recounting, I am willing to stand corrected; I don’t > keep journals and I am going off of my best > recollection of something that really wasn’t that > significant at the time.
So what is so significant about canyoneering that you have to take up to name calling and classifications? We’re all out here for our own selfish reasons, so as my wife would tell me if I become offensive . Take off your pants and walk all over them”. Joe I think you need to look at what have to say to and about people, I think they listen better if you’re not naked, jumping up and down on your trowsers.
As for your comments about doing canyons in other > parts of the desert, I have been inviting you and JDZ > to do those trips for two years now. Last spring I > invited you to come do a first descent in upper > Escalante with me. Since ’99 you have been telling me > that it is too difficult for you to break away from > your shop to get into Escalante, etc., and while > disappointed, I have never revoked the offer. Our > trips were always fun and always fast (at least that > is what we both were saying as recently as last > spring). JDZ is currently scheduled to do a trip, a > tough trip, with me in late April along with two other > very good canyoneers that contacted me from this site > over a year ago. It would have been a good trip for > you to go on, Bo, and I still would take you on any of > my trips that you cared to join.
No, you’re right, my priorities right now keep me pretty close to home, but if you give me some notice, I might surprise myself and take some time off.
The fact that you tried to burn me in this last post > from you doesn’t rankle me; again, I don’t treat my > trip partners that way but such is life. I prefer to > remember our trips in the same tones that you > expressed to me for two years after our first Heaps > trip together. They were fun, Bo, remember?
I think you could have fun with any person in this e-group if you’d put down your dukes. Yes we did have some good times.
Well, Bo, I’ve always known that you and I disagreed > on bolting and creating hook holes, but it never led > me to dis you personally. I won’t start now. So you > can blast away and I’ll still extend my hand when I > come into your shop (and I will still come into your > shop). Hope you’ll respond similarly.
Joe I look forward to seeing you I hope to have some fun and not discuss politics, ethics, and the shortcomings of everyone else.
Sincerely, Bo
Joe Wrona
Well, Bo, I guess your post deserves a reply. If I am not mistaken, the ’99 trip was the first attempt by both of us to do Heaps in a single day push. I am surprised if it was June 6, primarily because I came out of the Escalante backcountry the day before in a snowstorm. That trip was for a Nat’l Geo Adventure photo shoot and the photos have been published, so I know I wasn’t hallucinating. But I trust your accounting of the date because I know that you keep a calendar of such things.
I recall your stories about the effort you had spent on multi-day descents of Heaps previously (I will assume that you told me those accounts confidentially and will honor that). I recall that our trip down Heaps was a good trip. In fact, I recall that afterwards you asked me to help you try to do Imlay in a single push that same year. We then did so, and I wore the same wetsuit. I still wear that wetsuit for most of my Zion wet trips. In fact, I wore the 3/2 wetsuit on our trash collecting trip through Heaps and Imlay and slept in it through an overnight rainstorm at the crossroads (my partners on that trip took pictures which they can use to my detriment if they so desire).
As for your comment about a belay, I am not sure what you are suggesting. At the exit, we were using 8s as descending devices. You told me that you were going to provide some tension from the bottom, and then you didn’t. While you and I discussed that fact afterwards in friendly tones, I don’t think I ever mentioned that part of the incident to anyone else. The way I figured it, it was an honest mistake, and the sincere apology that you gave was good enough for me. That’s how I deal with trip partners.
I don’t understand your comment about a prussik either. I described that descent on this site over a year ago, and the interesting feature was that I couldn’t feel the injury while descending due to numbness in that hand. That injury, which you and I both marvelled at the next day in your shop, didn’t occur due to a lack of a prussik; it occurred due to a lack of biofeedback from my digits.
Your comment about the Kolob trip really baffles me. You and I had agreed to try to do a one day trip through Kolob using the MIA exit because neither of us had used that particular route before. I drove several hours to Zion from another part of the desert to link up for that trip. Here is what I remember: On our first scheduled date of departure, I drove up to our meeting spot and you didn’t show. I called you later that day and you said that your car couldn’t or wouldn’t make it up the grade (Bo, I can’t remember if you said that you had tried or that you knew it wouldn’t due to the weather, so I don’t want to mistate what happened). We agreed to try again (I can’t remember if it was the next day or a few days later, again, I don’t want to misstate what happened). I waited around in Zion until the next scheduled meeting, woke up at 4 am, and drove to our meeting place. The weather was weak (but not that bad), and I eventually assumed that you were not coming again, so I drove back down. I called you a day or two later and we discussed all of this. You also told me that you had arrived at the rally point a little late, but that the trip was good. I was happy for you and I didn’t cop an attitude about the problems that we had in hooking up. I recall the conversation being a good one and we talked about a couple of other things that we wanted to do together. Now, if I have missed a detail or incorrectly stated something in this recounting, I am willing to stand corrected; I don’t keep journals and I am going off of my best recollection of something that really wasn’t that significant at the time.
As for your comments about doing canyons in other parts of the desert, I have been inviting you and JDZ to do those trips for two years now. Last spring I invited you to come do a first descent in upper Escalante with me. Since ’99 you have been telling me that it is too difficult for you to break away from your shop to get into Escalante, etc., and while disappointed, I have never revoked the offer. Our trips were always fun and always fast (at least that is what we both were saying as recently as last spring). JDZ is currently scheduled to do a trip, a tough trip, with me in late April along with two other very good canyoneers that contacted me from this site over a year ago. It would have been a good trip for you to go on, Bo, and I still would take you on any of my trips that you cared to join.
The fact that you tried to burn me in this last post from you doesn’t rankle me; again, I don’t treat my trip partners that way but such is life. I prefer to remember our trips in the same tones that you expressed to me for two years after our first Heaps trip together. They were fun, Bo, remember?
Well, Bo, I’ve always known that you and I disagreed on bolting and creating hook holes, but it never led me to dis you personally. I won’t start now. So you can blast away and I’ll still extend my hand when I come into your shop (and I will still come into your shop). Hope you’ll respond similarly.
Best,
Joe Wrona
— Bo Beck bobeck@outdooroutlet.com> wrote: > I’ve let this simmer long enough; Joe, is this > the Joe Wrona that I > went thru Heaps with June 6th, 1999? Come on Joe, in > my opinion you must > have a personal vendetta? Yeah I’m a “Rap and Swim > Kiddie” canyon buff and > feel fairly comfortable with my skills; sure I’ve > got more to learn and > thats one reason I stick with it, but to belittle a > person, come on! You > must have come a long way since ’99’. I bet you use > a thicker wetsuit now, > so that hypothermia doesn’t detract from your total > experience? Oh, and that > last long drop, remember? When someone gives you a > prussik to use as a > backup you ought use it. It’ll keep you from wearing > holes in your hand. You > say that I should have given you a belay? Hey I’m > just a “Rap and Swim > Kiddie” I figured since I made it down without a > belay, a seasoned > “Canyoneer” might feel offended at such a gesture.I > sure had a good time on > that trip, and each time I take that hike I enjoy it > just as much as the ” > Wet “6-6-99” Heaps trip I did with you. > I’m still a little baffled why you didn’t meet > me at the Wildcat Canyon > Trailhead at 5 AM for your first adventure down > Kolob? Yeah it rained, so > what, most people I know would have had the courtesy > to at least meet up and > cancel and set up another time. When are you going > to show me Neon as you > promised? You wanted to do Heaps with me last year > again and may wonder why > I couldn’t find the time? Think about it Joe! > I still want to see Neon and some of the others > you got me excited about. > How ’bout’ it? I’m not trying to be rude Joe, but it > would be an honor to > hike once again with a seasoned “porcupine sluggin’, > dyed in the tee-pee” > veteran such as yourself. By the way my wife has > done “The Subway” with me, > she too is a “Rap and Swim Kiddie” but she only > speaks Portuguese and > doesn’t know what that means, she had a great time > though! > Bo
It is interesting to > me that the pro-bolting group tends to be limited > to > rap ‘n swim canyoneers; i.e., those canyoneers with > the most limited range of canyoneering experiences; > rather than those canyoneers who are actually > pushing > their own standards. > …the “authority” and alleged > “wisdom” and “skill” of the rap ‘n swim kiddie > canyoneering club in deciding bolting issues. > This site is not the > voice of veteran canyoneering and most of the vocal > participants of this site are not now and have > never > been at the cutting edge of the discipline. > Fortunately, some users are moving quickly up the > ladder of experience in hard canyons, but far too > many > of the self-appointed “experts” and leaders” have > never been either one and are now too old, too fat > or > just too timid to ever be one.
>
Try FREE Mail – the world’s greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/