— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Steve Newcomb”
> Advantages of Double Strand:
>A. because each strand has half the tension, the wear on the
ropes is considerably less.
>B. when going with untrained beginners, or people trained in
other disciplines (such as climbing), or people who resist new
ideas, it may be necessary to use double ropes to provide people
with an easier way to get the correct amount of friction.
Not sure if I understand this point. Aren’t most if not all the techniques used to increase friction with a Double Strand available for the Single Strand?
YES!, however, the easiest way for people to attain enough friction is the way they already know.
C. Simpler to rig.
Huh?
D. The margin of safety is increased due to point A and how it > affects abrasion, most importantly when using skinny ropes around > rough rocks.
Since ropes very rarely cut to the point of people dying, I did not include this as a major point. From an academic point of view, this is a good point. Important to remember on extremely sharp rock, but in ‘normal use’, not too important. Also, much of the benefit is lost unless both strands are made independent.
> Advantages of Single Strand:
> A. It is simpler. There’s less to go wrong. Getting one rope
to go through a device is easier, simpler, less complex, and
(from a complexity issue) therefore safer. Also faster.
ummm, I think you’re focusing on the wrong aspects as far as easy > and simple. And faster – how many seconds are we talking about? > Although I would agree it is easier to push one rope through than > two, Single Strand is
1. more complicated to rig > 2. adds another way of starting a rappel on an unanchored rope > (major penalty points for this)
I did mean faster to get ON Rappel, but in many circumstances, it is faster to prepare the rope for rappelling single strand. On typical short rappels, bottom visible, they are essentially equivalent. In most other situations, a single strand rap is faster to rig.
We are aware that it is possible for people to rig on the wrong side of the anchor, however, we DO teach people to be aware of this problem, we DO anchor the other side of the rope, and we DO manage the other side of the rope to make it unattractive.
—Aside: Before we continue, let’s clarifythe nomenclature. There are a couple of terms used that CAN mean different things to different people. “Single Strand” means that the rappel is done with exactly one strand. “Double Strand” means that the rappel is done with exactly two strands, with the tension on the strands approximately equal. “Toss and Tangle” (aka “Toss and Go”) (aka “Climber Style”) rappels are where the rope is threaded through a ring, then one side thrown down, then the other.
Rope Bags can be used with either style. The true “Toss and Tangle” method eschews use of a ropebag, instead coiling or dragging the rope between drops.
In normal “Toss and Tangle” methodology, the rope runs as a pulley through the ring, and all the rope is committed from the anchor point down. This is the MOST IMPORTANT distinction between the two styles.
The techniques I am advocating here (generally called “Single Strand”) can also be called “Modern”, “Canyoning Specific”, “Euro- Style”, “ACA-Style”; etc.
So in general, what I am discussing here are single-strand techniques using a ropebag, rebutting your advocation of a double- strand, “Toss and Tangle” method, BUT using a ropebag (so, an “updated Toss and Tangle”).
End of Aside—
> C. If nothing else, the Canyon Rescue course convinces you that
having all the rope deployed for the rappel gives the rescuer
few options should something go wrong. Generally, if you rig
single strand, you have a length of rope to use for lowering or
otherwise effecting a rescue.
D. Allows setting the length of the rope to eliminate the > disconnect at the bottom. Useful for large groups and C class > canyons, but overrated IMO as a time saving device with proper > sized groups. The amount of time saved with a small group with > disconnects is overtaken by the increased time setting it up and > more complicated courtesy shifts. Buying a rope bag saves a lot > more time with either method.
“Proper-sized groups?” Are my groups improper???? Groups vary largely in size, but even in small groups (including 1!), setting the rope length is very, very helpful. Easy enough to set a rope length with double strands, if that is what you want.
Seems like you think these things are difficult or time consuming to rig. They take a little time to learn and become proficient with, but once there, they take the same or less time to rig, except in the simplest case, where they may take a tiny bit more time.
Being able to lower a stranded person is probably its biggest > advantage, but it requires advanced skills that few possess. I > question the value of teaching this technique to beginners in a > single course, then sending “trained beginners” out into the > canyons. For all its merits, I think it is primarily a specialized > technique, to be used to train beginners in the canyons and > providing more options to advanced teams going through uncharted > territory or high water canyons. For everyone else using beta with > their buddies (that would be the vast majority) the simpler and > less-error-prone Double Strand should be the norm for the > community.
I guess we will have to disagree on this point, Steve. Setting contingency anchors is a pretty simple skill to teach and learn, people get it, they may not use it much, but we are working on that part. In fact, I am working on it right now, hoping that the 3 people still reading at this point will at some point be convinced that contingency anchors have a place in their toolbox, and they should practice and use them more.
While YOU may canyon with people that have no training, I canyon with trained people all the time. We are trying to spread the training (like a virus), both by directly training people, and by encouraging others to learn the techniques however possible.
> All the experts with their panties all twisted up now can ignore > this discussion and continue to canyoneer as they like. > Since Alicia kicked me out, I now have to wear my OWN underwear, which fits me fine and no longer bunches up. Thank you for your concern about my comfort.
So, with all that carrying capacity, why not carry big fat
ropes? After you take the Canyon Rescue course, you will realize
you have more options if you bring 3X the length of the longest
rappel in real rope with you.
The Double Strand method requires you to bring more rope, and more > real rope. More rope to have in case one gets stuck. More rope for > rescue lines. And if you run out of rope for Double Strand (due to > an exceptionally bad day), there’s always the Single Strand method > to employ.
Uh, really? You really carry 4X length of longest rappel?
> What size? – up to you.
I think the leaders and teachers of the community have to step up > on this issue. There is a driving force out there to use skinnier > ropes and it is based mostly on convenience, the desire to carry > less weight.
Thank you for your concern. Really. For me personally, carrying less weight makes me stronger and faster, and therefore safer. Although I have to admit, my ability to feign back problems means that I rarely have to carry the rope.
> If it’s necessary because you’re on a 3 day trip down > 3000 feet of canyon, fine. But this isn’t the case most of the > time. Your safety, both in carrying enough rope and avoiding > cutting them on rappel, should be more important > than your comfort.
Interesting. Personallyt I don’t consider it a safety issue, but more an economy and convenience issue. I LIKE using smaller ropes, I LIKE carrying less weight, and I am willing to go through ropes faster to do so. I also have 9mm ropes, but they don’t get used much. On Rendezvouses will be one place where they will be used.
> I’m guilty of this myself. After struggling > carrying my wet Edelweiss 10 mm Canyon rope through many canyons, > I purchased a 8mm Canyon Pro for general use. I now know, through > happenstance encounters and experience, that it has a lot of > limitations, some of them not so obvious. I had read plenty before > purchasing it and knew of some issues. I did not have any problems > with my own personal use, but new issues came up at a recent > festival. They came up because new techniques (to me) were > used in the canyons without any talk of suitibility and > limitations. The issues only came to me after the fact, after > thinking about what had happened and thinking about other people’s > experiences posted to this group.
Good. Now you are aware that at Rendezvouses, people may be using different techniques than you are. A good opportunity for discussion, training, and cross-pollination.
It IS EXTREMELY GENEROUS of people to provide ropes for groups at Rendezvouses. Thanks to all that do so. I know we chewed up Jim and Nadine’s rope pretty good – sorry about that.
The bottom line is skinnier ropes (I’m mostly talking about 8mm > and below, but some would put it at 9mm) have real limitations > with regard to how they are to be used, and these limitations need > to be conveyed to others when they are being trained, before > purchases, at the gatherings, whenever they are exposed to new > methods.
Agreed.
I also think the Double Strand toss and go method should be the > first one taught to beginners, but that will have to wait for > another day. > Dis-agreed, but you knew that. In ACA courses, the double-strand toss-n-go method is demonstrated and discussed extensively, usually in the context of “why this does not work”. In fact, if you rig toss-n-go, I hope you know how to set up a Z-rig using slings at hand, because this is the only method you will have of effecting rescue. But, according to Steve, this is a super-advanced technique requiring plenty of extra gear, and only used by SAR teams to raise immobilized, injured people to the rim. So I guess whoever got themselves into trouble down there on the rope better take care of it themselves, and we’ll just wait here till they’re done (cause we can’t do anything else).
Get it?
Tom