I bought a 200 foot canyon fire rope a while back and just picked up a 300 foot canyon fire rope while in Zion a couple weeks ago. I decided to get off my butt and mark them.
When measuring the 300 rope I noticed it was a bit long like 12 feet. I assume this is done to account for the inevitable rope shrinkage. I assume the 300 foot rope was a bit long originally as well but did not measure it then. It now measures in at about 197 feet. Is this a normal amount of shrinkage?
Ok now to rope marking. I have used the rope ink and have run out but was wondering what other options are available for this. A guy at the local climbing store says that Blue Water Ropes is no longer making a rope marking pen and are instead recommending to use a sharpie. They say it has to be the ones made by Stanford and it has to be the non-toxic. Can anyone confirm this?
The guy at the store said some climbers will mark their ropes by poking fishing line or dental floss through the rope at the center so the fuzzies hang out. A physical item sticking out from the rope sounds great so your mark won’t get lost in the dirt (I hate that). But the idea of poking a needle through my rope does not sound like such a good idea. The guy assures me it is no harm to the rope. My head tells me a bit different.
Any of the experienced brains want to comment on this? I would love to hear any and all thoughts.
Thanks
Luke
Randi
Hmmmm ~ I don’t know why that mssg. posted twice.Let’s see if this one does too! Sorry for the erroneous test text….
— On Fri, 6/4/10, Randi advntr_inxs@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Randi advntr_inxs@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: Rope marking and shrinkage. To: Yahoo Canyons Group Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 12:31 PM
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Cute Erik! ; )~
Luke, I don’t think that’s far off the normal expected length decrease over time.I cut my 300 to 330′ to allow for the normal 10% shrinkage that I was told would occur after repeated wetting/drying cycles.
— On Fri, 6/4/10, ryanej1 ryanej@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: ryanej1 ryanej@hotmail.com>
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Rope marking and shrinkage.
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 12:03 PM
ÂÂ
That must be one cold pool you’re swimming in. That’s a lot of shrinkage.
Erik
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
>
…I assume the 300 foot rope was a bit long originally as well but did not measure it then. It now measures in at about 197 feet. Is this a normal amount of shrinkage?…
>
> >
> Thanks
>
> Luke
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Randi
Cute Erik! ; )~ Luke, I don’t think that’s far off the normal expected length decrease over time.I cut my 300 to 330′ to allow for the normal 10% shrinkage that I was told would occur after repeated wetting/drying cycles.
— On Fri, 6/4/10, ryanej1 ryanej@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: ryanej1 ryanej@hotmail.com> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Rope marking and shrinkage. To: Yahoo Canyons Group Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 12:03 PM
ÂÂ
That must be one cold pool you’re swimming in. That’s a lot of shrinkage.
Erik
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
>
…I assume the 300 foot rope was a bit long originally as well but did not measure it then. It now measures in at about 197 feet. Is this a normal amount of shrinkage?…
>
> >
> Thanks
>
> Luke
>
>
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>
ryanej1
That must be one cold pool you’re swimming in. That’s a lot of shrinkage.
Erik
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote: > …I assume the 300 foot rope was a bit long originally as well but did not measure it then. It now measures in at about 197 feet. Is this a normal amount of shrinkage?…
Thanks
Luke
>
kuenn_k2
Nothing tiny or insignificant about the raps in this sport, ropes may be shorter, in some cases, but the process is the same. The only difference is the “splat” factor. But I’m not sure I’ll ever muster the nerve to rap off from a bag of sand regardless of the length.
If I lived in the southwest I would certainly spend more time canyoning; alas, you take what mother nature provides. One thing is certain, there’s nothing that compares in either sport in my opinion to the adrenaline rush that comes just after pulling your rope…casting the dye so to speak…in an unfamiliar slot or passage.
One thing of interest about ropes over 1500 feet is that no single core fiber strand extends the entire length, they’re randomly interweaved throughout. If you happen to be around Yosemite between 6/28 – 7/9 you can see a 3000 footer in action at El Cap…raps and climbs around the clock.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Not sure I can even fully comprehend being on a 3000 foot rope! I see where > marking things that way might make sense. Ill still to my tiny raps in > comparison to that. Wow! Thanks for sharing your thoughts too.
Luke >
charlybldr
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Thanks everyone for the input. J
I > am thinking I might try out the tape method Charly mentioned. If it holds > up as long as the ink does in terms of it staying there until it is just too > dirty to see, all will be good.
Luke,
I don’t want to mislead you. The tape will not stay on as long as ink. The type of canyon (clean fresh water vs. dirty muddy water) very much affects how long it takes for the tape to get dirty. And I’d have to say a few dozen rappels can start rolling up the edges.
I like this method because it gives me an option to easily identify the middle of the rope (both visual and tactile) but it does require regular maintenance.
Charly
Luke
Not sure I can even fully comprehend being on a 3000 foot rope! I see where marking things that way might make sense. Ill still to my tiny raps in comparison to that. Wow! Thanks for sharing your thoughts too.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of K2 Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2010 11:57 AM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Rope marking and shrinkage.
Pit bouncing/caving…especially south of the border. 500 feet is considered shallow down there, many of the classics are 600-1200.
There are few US venues that require long ropes: Whitesides, NC (800); New River Gorge Bridge, WV(900); Dark Canyon Gunnison, CO(1500); El Cap (3000) and a few in-cave pits in the southeast 400′ to 600′. So rope lengths 1200′, 1500′ are not uncommon and even 3000 footers are not unheard of.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” wrote:
K2:
Thanks for the input.
May I ask what sport involves regularly using ropes in excess of 500 feet. > If you have a preferred method for marking a rope that goes up to and beyond > 500 that means it must be somewhat common to have ropes of that length in > some sport or maybe line of work.
Luke
K2
Pit bouncing/caving…especially south of the border. 500 feet is considered shallow down there, many of the classics are 600-1200.
There are few US venues that require long ropes: Whitesides, NC (800); New River Gorge Bridge, WV(900); Dark Canyon Gunnison, CO(1500); El Cap (3000) and a few in-cave pits in the southeast 400′ to 600′. So rope lengths 1200′, 1500′ are not uncommon and even 3000 footers are not unheard of.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
K2:
Thanks for the input.
May I ask what sport involves regularly using ropes in excess of 500 feet. > If you have a preferred method for marking a rope that goes up to and beyond > 500 that means it must be somewhat common to have ropes of that length in > some sport or maybe line of work.
Luke
Luke
K2:
Thanks for the input.
May I ask what sport involves regularly using ropes in excess of 500 feet. If you have a preferred method for marking a rope that goes up to and beyond 500 that means it must be somewhat common to have ropes of that length in some sport or maybe line of work.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of K2 Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:46 AM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Rope marking and shrinkage.
From my experience rope shrinkage is directly related to diameter and type (static/dynamic). Manufacturers caution 6% shrinkage is not to be unexpected. I have observed that the majority of the rope shrinkage occurs after the first time it gets wet and dries; as opposed to gradual shrinkage over time; and in some cases no significant shrinkage at all. I personally believe it has more to do with the tightness of the sheath, i.e.tighter the sheath = less shrinkage.
As far as marking goes I have always used a non-toxic permanent marker with no ill effects.other than the soiled issue you raise. Never tried floss or filament line through the core. I agree that it would not damage the core but I’m not convinced that it’s a superior method and wouldn’t have other issues, i.e. pulled out from use, frayed to the point of non-detection. My own preference is to mark (black) the first 100 feet in 50′ increments and then 1 ring (half inch in width and spacing) for every hundred feet thereafter to 500′. After 500 it changes but that’s doubtless of no interest to this sport.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” wrote:
I bought a 200 foot canyon fire rope a while back and just picked up a 300 > foot canyon fire rope while in Zion a couple weeks ago. I decided to get > off my butt and mark them.
When measuring the 300 rope I noticed it was a bit long like 12 feet. I > assume this is done to account for the inevitable rope shrinkage. I assume > the 300 foot rope was a bit long originally as well but did not measure it > then. It now measures in at about 197 feet. Is this a normal amount of > shrinkage?
Ok now to rope marking. I have used the rope ink and have run out but was > wondering what other options are available for this. A guy at the local > climbing store says that Blue Water Ropes is no longer making a rope marking > pen and are instead recommending to use a sharpie. They say it has to be > the ones made by Stanford and it has to be the non-toxic. Can anyone > confirm this?
The guy at the store said some climbers will mark their ropes by poking > fishing line or dental floss through the rope at the center so the fuzzies > hang out. A physical item sticking out from the rope sounds great so your > mark won’t get lost in the dirt (I hate that). But the idea of poking a > needle through my rope does not sound like such a good idea. The guy > assures me it is no harm to the rope. My head tells me a bit different.
Any of the experienced brains want to comment on this? I would love to hear > any and all thoughts.
Thanks
Luke
>
Luke
Thanks everyone for the input. J
Even though it may not hurt my rope to poke stuff through it… It just doesn’t seem right.
Tom the Beal Marker you sold was what I originally used and it worked well and yes LOTS of ink. It ran out while marking my ropes this time around. I am thinking I might try out the tape method Charly mentioned. If it holds up as long as the ink does in terms of it staying there until it is just too dirty to see, all will be good. It would be a lot cleaner and simpler to just throw a piece of tape on it. Plus when I end up needing to cut it in shorter lengths from damage the tape can be removed and new added at more meaningful places.
My 200 is not yet marked since my ink ran out. If I can get off my but again soon I will use the tape method and test it out on the 200.
Guess I will take my “Lucky” 312 foot rope and be happy. And yes Tom I feel all warm and fuzzy with my extra long rope.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of TomJones Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 1:50 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Rope marking and shrinkage.
See responses below ==>
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” wrote:
I bought a 200 foot canyon fire rope a while back and just picked up a 300 foot canyon fire rope while in Zion a couple weeks ago. I decided to get off my butt and mark them.
When measuring the 300 rope I noticed it was a bit long like 12 feet. I assume this is done to account for the inevitable rope shrinkage.
==> It is done to account for the inevitable variance in rope length measurement, both by the cordage house and by me. You got lucky!
>I assume the 200 foot rope was a bit long originally as well but did not measure it then. It now measures in at about 197 feet. Is this a normal amount of shrinkage?
==> It may have shrank only 3 feet, more likely 6 feet, and yes, this is normal.
Tom
charlybldr
In regards to rope marking pens. I believe it is the chemical Phenol, commonly present in many markers, that can be harmful to both nylon and polyester fibers. Will marking a rope with these pens damage it enough to make it dangerous? Hard to say but as the ink rarely penetrates beyond the sheath this seems unlikely. And, you would likely see damage in this area before any risk of catastrophic failure. In fact I’ve known guides who have regularly used common markers for years without any problems. But the answer is a big “maybe” and (to the best of my knowledge) because no definitive testing has been done to date, the caveat exists today.
I’ve thought about using India Ink (super permanent mark and contains no harsh chemicals… I think) but have not tried it as the other problem marking ropes this way is that as soon as you get a core shot and “adjust” the length of your rope, all marks previously made become useless.
So for about five years now I mark the center of my rope with a small piece of white coach’s tape. You know, the stuff you use to tape your hands for crack climbing. I typically carry a roll in my first aid kit. I peel off a strip about 1/2″ wide and about two inches long. With the center of the rope under slight tension I wrap the tape at a diagonal stretching it tightly around the rope so that I end up with a center mark that is about 3/4″ long and only the thickness of one to two layers of tape. The mark passes easily through rappel devices, is white so it shows up nicely on an orange rope and usually lasts through about half a dozen canyons at which time I simply pull out my roll of tape and replace the old mark. Takes about two minutes. BTW. I rarely “loose” the tape. Rather it just gets so dirty you can’t easily see it any more.
Charly
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
See responses below ==
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
I bought a 200 foot canyon fire rope a while back and just picked up a 300 foot canyon fire rope while in Zion a couple weeks ago. I decided to get off my butt and mark them.
When measuring the 300 rope I noticed it was a bit long like 12 feet. I assume this is done to account for the inevitable rope shrinkage.
==> It is done to account for the inevitable variance in rope length measurement, both by the cordage house and by me. You got lucky!
>I assume the 200 foot rope was a bit long originally as well but did not measure it then. It now measures in at about 197 feet. Is this a normal amount of shrinkage?
==> It may have shrank only 3 feet, more likely 6 feet, and yes, this is normal.
Tom >
TomJones
See responses below ==>
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
I bought a 200 foot canyon fire rope a while back and just picked up a 300 foot canyon fire rope while in Zion a couple weeks ago. I decided to get off my butt and mark them.
When measuring the 300 rope I noticed it was a bit long like 12 feet. I assume this is done to account for the inevitable rope shrinkage.
==> It is done to account for the inevitable variance in rope length measurement, both by the cordage house and by me. You got lucky!
>I assume the 200 foot rope was a bit long originally as well but did not measure it then. It now measures in at about 197 feet. Is this a normal amount of shrinkage?
==> It may have shrank only 3 feet, more likely 6 feet, and yes, this is normal.
Tom
TomJones
Interesting take on the issues…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Kitta” wrote:
As far as I know ropes shrink around max of 10%. Depending on rope you got – i.e. what it is made of. Anything more than that and I would suspect some problem with the rope, like core separating from the sheath or something equally bad.
==> There is no standard test for rope shrinkage, therefore saying anything technically exact (as above) is very difficult. Ropes shrink – many factors effect how much, including ones that are very unpredictable. More than 10% I hope is rare, but certainly has been seen.
I measured out a 300 foot 8mm Imlay Rope, somewhat used, in prep for a Heaps trip a few years ago, and was surprised to find it come to 270 feet. Oops! Thankfully, that was measured in my back yard, not on the last rap. Before that, I always thought my ropes shrank less than other brands, but now I am very much less certain of this “fact”.
The core “separating from the sheath” is called sheath slippage, and is not “bad” – it is normal. The Sheath and core are not bound together, so how well they stay together in use depends again on a lot of factors, especially tightness of weave. How it is used makes a huge difference. Usually this is noticed by the extra sheath all moving to one end, producing a section of empty sheath (which is NOT rope) that has essentially zero strength. This should be cut off and the end resealed at the earliest opportunity. Like shrinkage, SOME is normal, A LOT is not so much a defect as it is a pain in the patootie. And again like Shrinkage, I thought my ropes had less sheath slippage than other major brands, but now I am less sure.
As for poking holes through the rope, it is true that it is harmless. You can safely saw in some thread into your rope. Rope tests show that even poking holes with crampons don’t harm rope. As long as your method just pushes fibers apart and doesn’t cut them you are fine.
==> To a point. Let’s not get carried away with this…
Tom (Jones) Imlay Canyon Gear Canyoneering USA
TomJones
Given the slightest prompting, I will, as many know, spew forth vast volumes of verbiage…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Bryan” wrote:
Luke, > Maybe shoot Tom Jones a message and see what he thinks since he’s the one who designed your ropes. I purchased a 300ft 9mm rope from Tom and it was about 301ft, maybe your rope happened to come from the end of a run and is why there was the extra length…lucky!
I receive spools that are 610 feet. Which actually means, they are about 605 to 615 feet in length. Without actually measuring them when they come in, I have the feeling they have been very consistent and probably very close to 610 feet of late.
(Fairly obviously,) I get two 300-foot ropes out of a spool. My measuring technique tends to add 12 to 24″ per 100 feet, so the first 300’er off the spool is likely to be 304-1/2 feet long. The second is however long it ends up, as long as it is at least 300 feet. Sometimes it is considerably longer, and if so, I usually put a piece of blue tape on there with the note: ‘actual length 310 feet’ – just so people are not surprised and can cut off the extra ten feet if it is a liability for them (or, more usual I hope, can feel all warm and fuzzy about buying my rope because I gave them an extra ten feet).
When I first got into Canyoneering and bought my first rope, I wanted to mark it so I starting reading up on it. Came across the following statement:
“Sanford, the manufacturer of the Sharpie pens, will apparently not guarantee a consistent product. The ingredients of the pen may vary. There is no “standard” formula for the chemicals that are contained in the markers. The company has also stated that “Sanford will not endorse or in any way recommend use of these markers for rope climbing (sic), and will not accept liabilities, which may arise from its use.”
However, the above quote was taken off of someone’s website, not Sanfords site so it could be a bunch of bunk. With that said, I still have not marked my centers because of that statement though and would really like to find a safe method to do so.
Bryan >
==> Sanford is not in the business of making stuff to mark life-safety equipment, and they really, REALLY do not want to be in that business. Could a Sharpie ruin your rope (and you plummet to your death because of it?) – I suppose it is remotely possible. My main problem with using a Sharpie is that it does not last long on my canyoneering ropes. I use the Beal Rope Markers when I can get them because they REALLY put a lot of ink there and it remains visible for quite a few canyons. This product might be available again in the near future.
Tom
Bryan
Luke, Maybe shoot Tom Jones a message and see what he thinks since he’s the one who designed your ropes. I purchased a 300ft 9mm rope from Tom and it was about 301ft, maybe your rope happened to come from the end of a run and is why there was the extra length…lucky!
When I first got into Canyoneering and bought my first rope, I wanted to mark it so I starting reading up on it. Came across the following statement:
“Sanford, the manufacturer of the Sharpie pens, will apparently not guarantee a consistent product. The ingredients of the pen may vary. There is no “standard” formula for the chemicals that are contained in the markers. The company has also stated that “Sanford will not endorse or in any way recommend use of these markers for rope climbing (sic), and will not accept liabilities, which may arise from its use.”
However, the above quote was taken off of someone’s website, not Sanfords site so it could be a bunch of bunk. With that said, I still have not marked my centers because of that statement though and would really like to find a safe method to do so.
Bryan
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
I bought a 200 foot canyon fire rope a while back and just picked up a 300 > foot canyon fire rope while in Zion a couple weeks ago. I decided to get > off my butt and mark them.
When measuring the 300 rope I noticed it was a bit long like 12 feet. I > assume this is done to account for the inevitable rope shrinkage. I assume > the 300 foot rope was a bit long originally as well but did not measure it > then. It now measures in at about 197 feet. Is this a normal amount of > shrinkage?
Ok now to rope marking. I have used the rope ink and have run out but was > wondering what other options are available for this. A guy at the local > climbing store says that Blue Water Ropes is no longer making a rope marking > pen and are instead recommending to use a sharpie. They say it has to be > the ones made by Stanford and it has to be the non-toxic. Can anyone > confirm this?
The guy at the store said some climbers will mark their ropes by poking > fishing line or dental floss through the rope at the center so the fuzzies > hang out. A physical item sticking out from the rope sounds great so your > mark won’t get lost in the dirt (I hate that). But the idea of poking a > needle through my rope does not sound like such a good idea. The guy > assures me it is no harm to the rope. My head tells me a bit different.
Any of the experienced brains want to comment on this? I would love to hear > any and all thoughts.
Thanks
Luke
>
Tom Kitta
As far as I know ropes shrink around max of 10%. Depending on rope you got – i.e. what it is made of. Anything more than that and I would suspect some problem with the rope, like core separating from the sheath or something equally bad.
As for poking holes through the rope, it is true that it is harmless. You can safely saw in some thread into your rope. Rope tests show that even poking holes with crampons don’t harm rope. As long as your method just pushes fibers apart and doesn’t cut them you are fine.
As for the markers there was some discussion as to what one should do and what harms rope. Some time ago people tried to use special marking pens. Now many including myself use a permanent marker. Even if the marker is weakening fibers it is only effecting the sheath which is not load bearing. Most manufacturers of ropes have their brand of preferred markers. Quick search will tell you all about it.
Tom
K2
From my experience rope shrinkage is directly related to diameter and type (static/dynamic). Manufacturers caution 6% shrinkage is not to be unexpected. I have observed that the majority of the rope shrinkage occurs after the first time it gets wet and dries; as opposed to gradual shrinkage over time; and in some cases no significant shrinkage at all. I personally believe it has more to do with the tightness of the sheath, i.e.tighter the sheath = less shrinkage.
As far as marking goes I have always used a non-toxic permanent marker with no ill effects…other than the soiled issue you raise. Never tried floss or filament line through the core. I agree that it would not damage the core but I’m not convinced that it’s a superior method and wouldn’t have other issues, i.e. pulled out from use, frayed to the point of non-detection. My own preference is to mark (black) the first 100 feet in 50′ increments and then 1 ring (half inch in width and spacing) for every hundred feet thereafter to 500′. After 500 it changes but that’s doubtless of no interest to this sport.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
I bought a 200 foot canyon fire rope a while back and just picked up a 300 > foot canyon fire rope while in Zion a couple weeks ago. I decided to get > off my butt and mark them.
When measuring the 300 rope I noticed it was a bit long like 12 feet. I > assume this is done to account for the inevitable rope shrinkage. I assume > the 300 foot rope was a bit long originally as well but did not measure it > then. It now measures in at about 197 feet. Is this a normal amount of > shrinkage?
Ok now to rope marking. I have used the rope ink and have run out but was > wondering what other options are available for this. A guy at the local > climbing store says that Blue Water Ropes is no longer making a rope marking > pen and are instead recommending to use a sharpie. They say it has to be > the ones made by Stanford and it has to be the non-toxic. Can anyone > confirm this?
The guy at the store said some climbers will mark their ropes by poking > fishing line or dental floss through the rope at the center so the fuzzies > hang out. A physical item sticking out from the rope sounds great so your > mark won’t get lost in the dirt (I hate that). But the idea of poking a > needle through my rope does not sound like such a good idea. The guy > assures me it is no harm to the rope. My head tells me a bit different.
Any of the experienced brains want to comment on this? I would love to hear > any and all thoughts.
Thanks
Luke
>