First I need to vent a little. We placed a rope at the Moki exit of the Mindbender system to assist with the climb out then left to go enjoy Not Mindbender. When we got to the exit our rope was missing. This is extremely disturbing and frankly made more than one of us extremely angry. Who ever took the rope does not have my best wishes. A few days have passed and the anger has subsided so this is a very subdued version of what I felt (still feel) about the situation.
To who ever took the rope WTF!!!! WTF!!!!!
You took a rope set as a safety precaution for a group of people!
Luckily we all got out fine without incident but things could have taken a different course.
Please try and THINK! Before you act!
WTF!!
Ok on to a more productive note (and still a bit of a rant).
Ropes occasionally get left places, rather it be intentional or by mistake. I can completely understand someone finding a rope, trying to figure out if it is lost or there for a reason, then coming to the conclusion the rope was lost and just taking it with them. This happens from time to time. I have seen posts on this very group where gear has been found and the person who found it is trying to get it back to the rightful owner. When a rope is left coiled up or bagged, a note can help keep the rope where you left it. A person can read the note, know why the rope is there and when it was placed. Pretty simple. But stupidity or selfishness can still overcome the best of notes.
Our rope was not just left coiled up and stashed somewhere. Our rope was tied of (un-retrievable from the bottom) to a natural anchor and left hanging over a drop. We did not leave a note. The rope was VERY obviously set there by someone for a specific purpose. A rope set and left hanging at an obvious exit from a large canyon system, obviously has a reason to be there. A note would have been a nice addition to help but “not” needed. This is a very blatant safety issue. There is no need be “taught” any etiquettes in this case, a little common sense should do the trick here. The way the rope was set up was a note in itself!
A note is un-arguably a good idea. However if you take a moment to actually use your head for something besides a hat rack there are times when a note is not needed. If someone is stupid enough or selfish enough to take a rope that is left at a climb out exit I doubt a note would have made much difference anyway.
If you found a rope coiled or bagged in a canyon, how many of you would pick it up and haul it out? I know I would.
If you found a rope at the top or bottom of a drop but still all in one bunch, how many of you would pick it up and haul it out? I know I “might”. I would really think about it first though!
If you found a rope rigged and ready for climbing on at a climb out exit from a canyon, how many of you would un-tie it, pick it up and haul it out? I know I would “not”. I may wonder if it was left by accident. But I could never take that rope out and feel good about who I am and what I might be doing to another person. If a rope was left in this manner and forgotten I could haul it out. But the thought that someone “might” be depending on that rope to climb out would not allow me to take it. Even if I thought the chances were slim, I could never take that rope. If I came back a few months later, the rope looked untouched and beginning to get sun damaged; then I could feel good about cleaning out the trash.
I rarely express opinions strongly as I believe there are many opinions and mine is not always the right one. In fact my views change as I learn more. This post is not my normal style but I am very upset that someone would look at an obviously needed rope and just yank it.
We took close to 2 hours to drive out there, hike out to the Moki exit, place the rope, hike back out then drive to the rest of the group waiting for us at the start of the route. Yeah it bothers me to have wasted the time, but that isn’t too big of a deal.
The rope is missing. Basically the rope was stolen. That bothers me too but is not a big deal either. We just pony up and buy more rope.
I climbed up the exit with no safety rope. It bothers me to have to have done this after going to the effort to set a rope. But the climb up was fun and had its own rewards. All in all not a big deal either.
My issue is knowing that there is someone out there that can look at a situation like that and feel it is ok to take the rope knowing they might be placing someone else in danger. I find it very hard to believe that someone could look at that and not think there is a chance that rope is still needed. I find it extremely disturbing that there are people like that hanging out in the places I like to play.
Luke
mattwilliams212
Yes, I have been in contact with the individual privately and it looks like the story should have a happy ending. It will be nice to get the story over with, who knew what a sh*tstorm this was going to cause?? Next time I know to go about it a little more diplomatically and less judgemental. Another thing I know is that there will be a note on the rope we set in No Kidding this weekend… (Luke- dont forget those tags!)
Matt
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Luke Galyan wrote:
I think getting the rope back will be between Matt (the original owner of the rope) and the guy that contacted him in a private message (the current possesor of the rope). Hopefully it will come home safe and sound and everyone involved can walk away happy with a new view on wilderness.
Time snag some tags from work to keep on hand for rope notes.
Luke
Sent from my phone
Jenny wrote:
>Tom and Ram, thank you for two things; 1) for making efforts to produce facts regarding the supposed enhancement of moqui steps to set the record straight and clear an individual of blame, and 2) for taking personal responsibility for sourcing (potentially) false information.
There is no shame in making mistakes. The loss follows when the “errors” in one’s actions are not rectified. A public apology is a powerful thing. A mess, when cleaned up well, is no longer a mess, in my opinion.
Luke, thanks to you, as well. Your sharing of the Tale of the Missing Rope ignited wonderful conversations with both Bogleydytes and Yahoos. I love a happy ending too. (You will get your rope back, right?)
Jenny
>
Luke Galyan
I think getting the rope back will be between Matt (the original owner of the rope) and the guy that contacted him in a private message (the current possesor of the rope). Hopefully it will come home safe and sound and everyone involved can walk away happy with a new view on wilderness.
Time snag some tags from work to keep on hand for rope notes.
Luke
Sent from my phone
Jenny jenny.carverbc@gmail.com> wrote:
>Tom and Ram, thank you for two things; 1) for making efforts to produce facts regarding the supposed enhancement of moqui steps to set the record straight and clear an individual of blame, and 2) for taking personal responsibility for sourcing (potentially) false information.
There is no shame in making mistakes. The loss follows when the “errors” in one’s actions are not rectified. A public apology is a powerful thing. A mess, when cleaned up well, is no longer a mess, in my opinion.
Luke, thanks to you, as well. Your sharing of the Tale of the Missing Rope ignited wonderful conversations with both Bogleydytes and Yahoos. I love a happy ending too. (You will get your rope back, right?)
Jenny
Jenny
Tom and Ram, thank you for two things; 1) for making efforts to produce facts regarding the supposed enhancement of moqui steps to set the record straight and clear an individual of blame, and 2) for taking personal responsibility for sourcing (potentially) false information.
There is no shame in making mistakes. The loss follows when the “errors” in one’s actions are not rectified. A public apology is a powerful thing. A mess, when cleaned up well, is no longer a mess, in my opinion.
Luke, thanks to you, as well. Your sharing of the Tale of the Missing Rope ignited wonderful conversations with both Bogleydytes and Yahoos. I love a happy ending too. (You will get your rope back, right?)
Jenny
TomJones
Put moi in that blame circle too. I took something he said to me as that he had enhanced the holds there and told many people such, whereas a later conversation clarified that he did not in fact enhance anything there.
Jenny – there are claimed to be real moki steps on the lower slab, but I am of the opinion they are suspect (as possibly natural features). The angle of the slab is low enough that one could slabclimb up it in bare feet. The upper, more vertical part of the exit is on a hueco wall, thus very doable on all-natural holds. At the top, a couple holds are chipped that are in a more-natural (linear) progression and sharper/more-secure – and obviously newish.
The 50-years comes from the antiquities act, but is not law nor so specific. The NPS/BLM or FS and claim antiquity on anything. 50 years is like the 50/50 point. Things older than 50 years are generally significant, therefore protected, but the line is very, very grey.
But, hacking at the rock with a geopick or other enhancer is definitely prohibited.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
I had been told they were his but never confirmed it with Mike himself. I wrote him and asked him. He was there 10 plus years ago before any “enhancements” were evident. He said he saw 2 enlarged finger holds and hasn’t been back since. So it seems I was in error and owe him and all an apology for not checking my facts before publicly stating rumor. Apologies all! > Ram
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “nat_smale” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
> On a different but related note, aren’t these the steps that Kelsey chopped/enhanced? How do people feel about that in the first place? It makes several routes practical as day trips. Is it a cheat? A service? vandalism? necessary? A step on the slippery slope to fixed lines or a via ferreta? 😉
> Hi Ram,
How do you know these steps were made/enhanced by Kelsey? Maybe they are,…I don’t know, but I don’t believe that he has laid claim to that in his books.
Nat
>
Luke
EightTrack:
Thanks for pointing me at the Bogley post.
To who stole the rope – er uh I mean cleaned up the rope:
On the Bogley forum you said there were no signs of people from the time you left your camp at the exit trailhead but that you followed 3 sets of prints. Ever consider the prints could have been from that day or even the previous by one of many parties in the system that weekend? Following 3 prints means very little considering there a lot of routes and multiple parties could have been around. When you got back to your camp and found the vehicle that was not there when you left camp, did you stop and think maybe those in that vehicle came in after you left, set the rope and were not in front of you but rather behind you? A vehicle at your camp area does not absolutely mean that someone set that rope that day, but it certainly indicates it is possible. When you got back to your camp and saw the newly placed vehicle, did it even cross your mind that maybe you took a rope that belonged to those in that vehicle?
We made assumptions about your actions and called it theft. If your intentions were good I apologize for accusing you of stealing. A note in our case would have helped.
Sounds like you made a lot of assumptions that day as well. When you saw the new vehicle at your camp you should have considered the rope “might” belong to those people. Maybe a note on the windshield of that vehicle near your camp would have been a good idea as well.
Guess we both made assumptions. Sounds like a note would have been the right thing to do for both of us. More so for our party but still a good idea for yours considering the situation.
I still feel a little twinge of WTF!!? But oh well.
Ram:
You brought up a valid point I had not thought of and it has caused me to think of this in a different way. I never thought about people intentionally leaving a fixed line behind trying to do good for the community. I agree that this can be dangerous since the rope’s integrity can degrade over time. There would be no way for future parties to know the dependability of the rope. So I can definitely see someone wanting to clean up a rope if they thought that were the case.
In our case it was pretty obvious the rope was in good condition and likely placed very recent (no bleaching of the rope etc). While one could assume the rope was set as a community service I think one could equally assume that maybe the rope was set that day and intended to be used later that day, since this is a popular and well documented exit. So I can see one’s mind going either way on this. Personally if I found that and had those thoughts I would have erred on the side of caution and left it. If someone was coming back then it will be there for them. If someone is not coming back the rope was in good shape and someone can haul it out later. But thanks for opening a new thought for me as it helps rationalize what might have happened and makes me feel a little better about it and emphasizes the idea of needing a note anyway.
Tom:
I think the rope set tied off at a drop and left hanging was a note in itself. I understand you feel differently. No worries there. Good to know there are other opinions out there. I can definitely leave a note in the future as it will help when people with a different view encounter my rope. Pretty simple solve even if I feel it is not needed. Thanks.
But to continue with your comment about us experienced outdoorsmen leaving stuff laying around in the wilderness struck me as odd when you consider where we are talking about. Yes it is far from any major highways, and in an area with no trails, and on land not maintained by park service’s etc; so it could be called wilderness. But we all know this is far from wilderness in practice since the area has a lot of well maintained county roads (even Yarisable at 60mph) and is used by recreational hikers, canyoneers and ranchers. To add to that this is a virtual playground for Canyoneering. There are lots of people camping at the Motel 6 area and when you talk to anyone there the question seems to always come up.. What are you guys doing? You simply name off a route and the other party nods their head. This area is very busy with recreational Canyoneering traffic which kind of nullifies the feeling of wilderness. With Zion’s permit system I get about the same feeling of wilderness in Zion as I do in the Roost. I see tons of people hanging out in the general area (Motel 6 could equal say the visitor center in Zion) and interacting. But I rarely see anyone actually in the canyon. This area could be called wilderness if you want to say it is far away from civilization. But the reality is, this place is a very commonly visited and populated area for outdoor play. Wilderness. not so much. And the exit we were using… pretty well known to those that would have been out there.
Laws are made when considering those with no common sense, or views that are not good for those around them. So are things like notes on a rope. Even if it is obvious a rope is set as a safety and the party will likely return for it soon, a note is a good idea because someone may not take a moment to act on the safer side of possible assumptions. Some will decide to thump their chest and clean up trash as a public service while disregarding any thoughts that their actions may endanger another fellow outdoorsman with a weaker skill set than their own.
All in all everyone will have differing opinions. Got it. A note will be helpful in clarifying things no matter what your personal views of the situation are.
Lesson learned – notes help.
Fire back if anyone feels the need. I will read and maybe learn some stuff. However I am kinda over it and will just let it roll away at this point. Thanks all for letting me vent in a venue where it is healthy to do so. J
Ram to answer the question:
The climb out was not all that difficult. Lots of good holds for both hands and feet. One spot was a little exposed feeling, which gave me pause and had me looking around to consider all the options before committing though. We used the rope to belay others up but no one needed the rope to get up the climb. Everyone in the party was able to climb it without incident but were happy to have the rope there to stay safe.
On another note….
We also went down the East Fork of Blue John. Then we split into two parties where one group went up the Main Fork and the other group went up the West Fork. I was in the group that went up the Main Fork. Wow I was taken back by the trash in these places. Sunflower seeds, cigarette butts, wrappers, orange peels, used toilet paper left scattered…. And the list continues. These routes are mostly non-tech so I assume they attract the new people or those attracted to the 127 hour concept that normally would never be in these places.
Also some rope grooves at the one bolted drop in East Fork. The cure for these rope grooves would have been as simple as literally one or two steps back. Sad that people don’t take the time to just step back a little. And yes I know some of it is lack of knowledge about the impacts of their actions.
Would be nice if there were a way to get this type of message out to people just learning about this incredible sport. When I get these written up I will try to add this thought to the beta as these canyons will likely attract new canyoneers.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of eighttrackjones Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 3:41 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Rope stolen on exit of Mindbender System
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” wrote: > To who ever took the rope > WTF!!!! WTF!!!!!
Mystery solved on page 2 http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62622
eighttrackjones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote: > To who ever took the rope > WTF!!!! WTF!!!!!
Mystery solved on page 2 http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?62622
nat_smale
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
I had been told they were his but never confirmed it with Mike himself. I wrote him and asked him. He was there 10 plus years ago before any “enhancements” were evident. He said he saw 2 enlarged finger holds and hasn’t been back since. So it seems I was in error and owe him and all an apology for not checking my facts before publicly stating rumor. Apologies all! > Ram >
Thanks Ram, for checking on this, and clarifying the situation.
Nat
RAM
I had been told they were his but never confirmed it with Mike himself. I wrote him and asked him. He was there 10 plus years ago before any “enhancements” were evident. He said he saw 2 enlarged finger holds and hasn’t been back since. So it seems I was in error and owe him and all an apology for not checking my facts before publicly stating rumor. Apologies all! Ram
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “nat_smale” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
On a different but related note, aren’t these the steps that Kelsey chopped/enhanced? How do people feel about that in the first place? It makes several routes practical as day trips. Is it a cheat? A service? vandalism? necessary? A step on the slippery slope to fixed lines or a via ferreta? 😉
Hi Ram,
How do you know these steps were made/enhanced by Kelsey? Maybe they are,…I don’t know, but I don’t believe that he has laid claim to that in his books.
Nat >
nat_smale
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
> On a different but related note, aren’t these the steps that Kelsey chopped/enhanced? How do people feel about that in the first place? It makes several routes practical as day trips. Is it a cheat? A service? vandalism? necessary? A step on the slippery slope to fixed lines or a via ferreta? 😉 >
Hi Ram,
How do you know these steps were made/enhanced by Kelsey? Maybe they are,…I don’t know, but I don’t believe that he has laid claim to that in his books.
Nat
Jenny
Are the steps in this thread Moki/Moqui steps or chopped cowboy/Kelsey steps? I’ve climbed out this spot and obviously didn’t pay close enough attention to where I was putting my toes. I absolutely abhor the idea of anyone “enhancing” ancient steps. Isn’t there actually a law against it? Isn’t it true that in many national parks (all?) anything over 50 years old is now considered an artifact and by law must not be removed? I feel that even the old cowboy steps should be respected for their historical relevance and left unaltered. Kelsey steps? Well, I don’t know about that. Old bolts placed 30 years ago? I don’t know about that either.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
> On a different but related note, aren’t these the steps that Kelsey chopped/enhanced? How do people feel about that in the first place? It makes several routes practical as day trips. Is it a cheat? A service? vandalism? necessary? A step on the slippery slope to fixed lines or a via ferreta? ;-)>
RAM
Hi Luke
I enjoyed your passionate rant. While i feel your pain, I think a few suggestions you made mitigate the situation. I think if you left a note, attached to the rope, INCLUDING THE DATE, both top and bottom. Tied off the rope, both top and bottom, included on the rope the purpose, it would never disappear. I may be wrong, but I have never heard of a rope disappearing when those steps are taken.
My reasoning is that more than a few times, fixed ropes have been left by folks who’s intentions are wholly altruistic. Providing, with their resources, a safety line to others in the future. While well meaning, it creates a potentially dangerous situation as the top anchor can’t be inspected and mice can gnaw at anytime. Or weather can undermine. Or it can be set improperly or dangerously. Besides others may feel it is a works of man and thus an intrusion.
Sounds like 2 parties unaware of each other and without the information on the rope, different conclusions and sensibilities may have prevailed. I doubt sinister intent, although I feel your pain. That is a long way time and big drop and climb out, to have your intent thwarted and your resource gone.
personally, I would be more inclined to leave the bundled rope and take the fixed line, thinking the first a mistake, that the group may realize and retrieve. The second as a likely misguided but well intentioned mistake, if no information is provided on the rope.
On a different but related note, aren’t these the steps that Kelsey chopped/enhanced? How do people feel about that in the first place? It makes several routes practical as day trips. Is it a cheat? A service? vandalism? necessary? A step on the slippery slope to fixed lines or a via ferreta? 😉
I am not surprised that it was you ponying up and leading the climb. You have had a splendid spring of fine climbing. The spot is a bit spicy, even with the enhanced steps, is it not? It’s all there, but….. Nice work and condolences on the lost gear. perhaps it will show up still Ram
PS With the increasing of off season canyoneering, it is worth noting that this spot is north facing and often holds snow in the coldest months. It need not be snow either. The lichen can get ‘activated” by cold, damp periods making the exposed climb that more dangerous. Pick your timing for this exit wisely and know the alternatives.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
First I need to vent a little. We placed a rope at the Moki exit of the > Mindbender system to assist with the climb out then left to go enjoy Not > Mindbender. When we got to the exit our rope was missing. This is > extremely disturbing and frankly made more than one of us extremely angry. > Who ever took the rope does not have my best wishes. A few days have passed > and the anger has subsided so this is a very subdued version of what I felt > (still feel) about the situation.
To who ever took the rope > WTF!!!! WTF!!!!!
You took a rope set as a safety precaution for a group of people!
Luckily we all got out fine without incident but things could have taken a > different course.
Please try and THINK! Before you act!
WTF!!
Ok on to a more productive note (and still a bit of a rant).
Ropes occasionally get left places, rather it be intentional or by mistake. > I can completely understand someone finding a rope, trying to figure out if > it is lost or there for a reason, then coming to the conclusion the rope was > lost and just taking it with them. This happens from time to time. I have > seen posts on this very group where gear has been found and the person who > found it is trying to get it back to the rightful owner. When a rope is > left coiled up or bagged, a note can help keep the rope where you left it. > A person can read the note, know why the rope is there and when it was > placed. Pretty simple. But stupidity or selfishness can still overcome the > best of notes.
Our rope was not just left coiled up and stashed somewhere. Our rope was > tied of (un-retrievable from the bottom) to a natural anchor and left > hanging over a drop. We did not leave a note. The rope was VERY obviously > set there by someone for a specific purpose. A rope set and left hanging at > an obvious exit from a large canyon system, obviously has a reason to be > there. A note would have been a nice addition to help but “not” needed. > This is a very blatant safety issue. There is no need be “taught” any > etiquettes in this case, a little common sense should do the trick here. > The way the rope was set up was a note in itself!
A note is un-arguably a good idea. However if you take a moment to actually > use your head for something besides a hat rack there are times when a note > is not needed. If someone is stupid enough or selfish enough to take a rope > that is left at a climb out exit I doubt a note would have made much > difference anyway.
If you found a rope coiled or bagged in a canyon, how many of you would pick > it up and haul it out? I know I would.
If you found a rope at the top or bottom of a drop but still all in one > bunch, how many of you would pick it up and haul it out? I know I “might”. > I would really think about it first though!
If you found a rope rigged and ready for climbing on at a climb out exit > from a canyon, how many of you would un-tie it, pick it up and haul it out? > I know I would “not”. I may wonder if it was left by accident. But I could > never take that rope out and feel good about who I am and what I might be > doing to another person. If a rope was left in this manner and forgotten I > could haul it out. But the thought that someone “might” be depending on > that rope to climb out would not allow me to take it. Even if I thought the > chances were slim, I could never take that rope. If I came back a few > months later, the rope looked untouched and beginning to get sun damaged; > then I could feel good about cleaning out the trash.
I rarely express opinions strongly as I believe there are many opinions and > mine is not always the right one. In fact my views change as I learn more. > This post is not my normal style but I am very upset that someone would look > at an obviously needed rope and just yank it.
We took close to 2 hours to drive out there, hike out to the Moki exit, > place the rope, hike back out then drive to the rest of the group waiting > for us at the start of the route. Yeah it bothers me to have wasted the > time, but that isn’t too big of a deal.
The rope is missing. Basically the rope was stolen. That bothers me too > but is not a big deal either. We just pony up and buy more rope.
I climbed up the exit with no safety rope. It bothers me to have to have > done this after going to the effort to set a rope. But the climb up was fun > and had its own rewards. All in all not a big deal either.
My issue is knowing that there is someone out there that can look at a > situation like that and feel it is ok to take the rope knowing they might be > placing someone else in danger. I find it very hard to believe that someone > could look at that and not think there is a chance that rope is still > needed. I find it extremely disturbing that there are people like that > hanging out in the places I like to play.
Luke
>
TomJones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
First I need to vent a little.
I am equally shocked, and puzzled, that experienced outdoorspersons like yourself and your companions think you can just leave stuff lying around in the wilderness, and expect to find it when you come back hours or days later. And get offended when it is not there.
You left trash in the wild. I salute the people that were unselfish enough to pack up your trash and carry it out.
If you leave trash in the wild in the future, putting a note on it saying especially WHEN you are leaving it and WHEN you will be collecting it will give you a much better chance of it being there in the future.
If you leave stuff on your private front lawn, and someone takes it, that is theft. This was not. This was cleaning up trash.
There are some nuances here, but leaving ropes in canyons or fixed on climbs, especially easy climbs, is bad form.
Tom
Steve Cottle
I was taught as a boy “if it ain’t yours, don’t take it.” A few years ago in the Swell, my own son and I happened on a pack o’ gear and nice Bluewater rope. Not a soul around. When we moved on, it remained as we found it. Nothing quite like being ripped off. Sorry to hear about that.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 26, 2012, at 9:56 PM, “Luke” luke@bluugnome.com> wrote:
> First I need to vent a little. We placed a rope at the Moki exit of the > Mindbender system to assist with the climb out then left to go enjoy Not > Mindbender. When we got to the exit our rope was missing. This is > extremely disturbing and frankly made more than one of us extremely angry. > Who ever took the rope does not have my best wishes. A few days have passed > and the anger has subsided so this is a very subdued version of what I felt > (still feel) about the situation.
To who ever took the rope > WTF!!!! WTF!!!!!
You took a rope set as a safety precaution for a group of people!
Luckily we all got out fine without incident but things could have taken a > different course.
Please try and THINK! Before you act!
WTF!!
Ok on to a more productive note (and still a bit of a rant).
Ropes occasionally get left places, rather it be intentional or by mistake. > I can completely understand someone finding a rope, trying to figure out if > it is lost or there for a reason, then coming to the conclusion the rope was > lost and just taking it with them. This happens from time to time. I have > seen posts on this very group where gear has been found and the person who > found it is trying to get it back to the rightful owner. When a rope is > left coiled up or bagged, a note can help keep the rope where you left it. > A person can read the note, know why the rope is there and when it was > placed. Pretty simple. But stupidity or selfishness can still overcome the > best of notes.
Our rope was not just left coiled up and stashed somewhere. Our rope was > tied of (un-retrievable from the bottom) to a natural anchor and left > hanging over a drop. We did not leave a note. The rope was VERY obviously > set there by someone for a specific purpose. A rope set and left hanging at > an obvious exit from a large canyon system, obviously has a reason to be > there. A note would have been a nice addition to help but “not” needed. > This is a very blatant safety issue. There is no need be “taught” any > etiquettes in this case, a little common sense should do the trick here. > The way the rope was set up was a note in itself!
A note is un-arguably a good idea. However if you take a moment to actually > use your head for something besides a hat rack there are times when a note > is not needed. If someone is stupid enough or selfish enough to take a rope > that is left at a climb out exit I doubt a note would have made much > difference anyway.
If you found a rope coiled or bagged in a canyon, how many of you would pick > it up and haul it out? I know I would.
If you found a rope at the top or bottom of a drop but still all in one > bunch, how many of you would pick it up and haul it out? I know I “might”. > I would really think about it first though!
If you found a rope rigged and ready for climbing on at a climb out exit > from a canyon, how many of you would un-tie it, pick it up and haul it out? > I know I would “not”. I may wonder if it was left by accident. But I could > never take that rope out and feel good about who I am and what I might be > doing to another person. If a rope was left in this manner and forgotten I > could haul it out. But the thought that someone “might” be depending on > that rope to climb out would not allow me to take it. Even if I thought the > chances were slim, I could never take that rope. If I came back a few > months later, the rope looked untouched and beginning to get sun damaged; > then I could feel good about cleaning out the trash.
I rarely express opinions strongly as I believe there are many opinions and > mine is not always the right one. In fact my views change as I learn more. > This post is not my normal style but I am very upset that someone would look > at an obviously needed rope and just yank it.
We took close to 2 hours to drive out there, hike out to the Moki exit, > place the rope, hike back out then drive to the rest of the group waiting > for us at the start of the route. Yeah it bothers me to have wasted the > time, but that isn’t too big of a deal.
The rope is missing. Basically the rope was stolen. That bothers me too > but is not a big deal either. We just pony up and buy more rope.
I climbed up the exit with no safety rope. It bothers me to have to have > done this after going to the effort to set a rope. But the climb up was fun > and had its own rewards. All in all not a big deal either.
My issue is knowing that there is someone out there that can look at a > situation like that and feel it is ok to take the rope knowing they might be > placing someone else in danger. I find it very hard to believe that someone > could look at that and not think there is a chance that rope is still > needed. I find it extremely disturbing that there are people like that > hanging out in the places I like to play.
Luke
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