Good on ya!! Any pictures? I too have done it in…was it 1.5 to two feet and can attest to the fact that traction is excellent when snow is deep. I have also done it with 3 or 4 inches of snow and can report with equal certainty that…..the traction is really, really, REALLY poor…and scary! 😉 R PS my pictures?…. someday when converted from slide to digi world.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Colby Ashcroft wrote:
I’m not sure what angels landing looks like this year, but I hiked the whole thing last year over spring break, the last half mile was covered in over a foot of snow and most of the chains were buried. we went through ripping the chains out of the snow. I found it pretty fun, and in some ways you get really good traction because you have knee high snow offering support.
> ________________________________ > From: Christian Rightler And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save > Changes".
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
I’m not sure what angels landing looks like this year, but I hiked the whole thing last year over spring break, the last half mile was covered in over a foot of snow and most of the chains were buried. we went through ripping the chains out of the snow. I found it pretty fun, and in some ways you get really good traction because you have knee high snow offering support.
________________________________ From: Christian Rightler ChristianRightler@hotmail.com> To: Canyon Group Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 4:14:37 PM Subject: RE: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: cardlaw22@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:40:48 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick. > R
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
… even hackers like me, it only took 3 tries to do the upper part of the trail “no-hands”.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adventure_geek” wrote:
Blown out of proportion and hairy are relative terms. Those that have good balance and that are used to heights can easily make it up to the top without using hands at all…
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, Christian Rightler wrote:
And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> From: cardlaw22@
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:40:48 +0000
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick.
> R
_______________
Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
Thanks for the information. I now know turning around on Angel’s Landing is no an option. You read some of these articles who’s objective is to get Angel’s Landing closed to the public and they have you start believing the place is a death trap where you are up there crawling over open air gaps and making leaps of faith that sometimes you make and soehtimes you don’t. Anyway, I think I will be fine.
In case anyone wondered about the permit situation I called and talked to the Zion Rangers. They said there will be no Permits given out for canyons east of the tunnel walk in or otherwise. They said the traffic through the tunnel will be slow enough, they do not want people hiking around by the roads and possibly in the way of the construction. So anybody like me holding out hope for a permit in May for a canyon such as Pine Creek can start working on different plans because there is no chance.
To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: aj@meet-outdoors.com Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:55:06 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Blown out of proportion and hairy are relative terms. Those that have good balance and that are used to heights can easily make it up to the top without using hands at all…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Christian Rightler wrote:
> And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
Blown out of proportion and hairy are relative terms. Those that have good balance and that are used to heights can easily make it up to the top without using hands at all…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Christian Rightler wrote:
> And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
Christian; Thousands of people hike up Angel’s Landing every year. If you have been doing canyoneering, I don’t thing you will have a problem. We have taken six year old’s up there. It’s important to respect the dangers, and use your best judgment. Can’t help you on the permits, but if it were me I would plan something else for this go around. Does someone know the time sechedule of the work that will be done? Bernell
________________________________ From: Christian Rightler ChristianRightler@hotmail.com> To: Canyon Group Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 4:14:37 PM Subject: RE: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: cardlaw22@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:40:48 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Â
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick. > R
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
RAM, I really appreciate your advice concerning the permit system. Nobody behind the backcountry desk can (or will) explain the system’s quirks.
I agree with you about ZNP. It has become like California…an extraordinarily beautiful place, full of people. Unfortunately, where there are lots of people, XXX.gov stomps in to try to referee players’ behavior and keep the idiots from destroying themselves. It is icky, but it’s the way the game is played.
I would love to bail on ZNP (just like I did on California), but there are still beautiful places there that I want to see. In the meantime, knowing the rules better really helps.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Some good advice. Got an obscure canyon with a private name in Zion? They have a category called “Other” on the permit forms. You tell them that the place doesn’t have a name as far as you know. They will want to know what exit you plan to use. Give it to them. Likely a ranger will be trolling that lot when you finish up. If they ask about the canyon, shrug. Be vague. You are “permitted” to have near zero personality. Back when your getting the permit, they may quiz you about the place. A good answer is….”Map implies biggest rap can be (insert height). We have enough rope. Thanks. Bye.”
So does this mean one can descend Russell Gulch and go back up and out, without a permit? No. It means it could reside in the “other” category. I haven’t been to this Zion place since the spring (and for peaks mostly- Echo snow of course) and it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick. > R
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
The problem is folks start asking for a permit to [insert name here] and the rangers comply by adding [insert name here] to the permit list.
Canyoneers have no one to blame but themselves for getting Das Boot added to the permit list. Das Boot is just a fancy name for a slight variation to The Subway.
Solution…. don’t be a dumbass…. be careful what permit you ask for. Use commonsense when picking up permits for a variation of a common trade route.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
And yet Das Boot is. Go figure. That’s right, its beyond figuring.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote:
Don’t believe Russell Gulch by itself was ever featured as a separate canyon from the Subway on the permits page.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ro2848” wrote:
Russell Gulch is missing from the ZNP permits reservation page. Does anyone have a handle on the reason?
And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: cardlaw22@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:40:48 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick. > R
Some good advice. Got an obscure canyon with a private name in Zion? They have a category called “Other” on the permit forms. You tell them that the place doesn’t have a name as far as you know. They will want to know what exit you plan to use. Give it to them. Likely a ranger will be trolling that lot when you finish up. If they ask about the canyon, shrug. Be vague. You are “permitted” to have near zero personality. Back when your getting the permit, they may quiz you about the place. A good answer is….”Map implies biggest rap can be (insert height). We have enough rope. Thanks. Bye.”
So does this mean one can descend Russell Gulch and go back up and out, without a permit? No. It means it could reside in the “other” category. I haven’t been to this Zion place since the spring (and for peaks mostly- Echo snow of course) and it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick. R
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
The problem is folks start asking for a permit to [insert name here] and the rangers comply by adding [insert name here] to the permit list.
Canyoneers have no one to blame but themselves for getting Das Boot added to the permit list. Das Boot is just a fancy name for a slight variation to The Subway.
Solution…. don’t be a dumbass…. be careful what permit you ask for. Use commonsense when picking up permits for a variation of a common trade route.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote: > And yet Das Boot is. Go figure. That’s right, its beyond figuring.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote: > Don’t believe Russell Gulch by itself was ever featured as a separate canyon from the Subway on the permits page.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ro2848” wrote: > Russell Gulch is missing from the ZNP permits reservation page. Does anyone have a handle on the reason? >
The problem is folks start asking for a permit to [insert name here] and the rangers comply by adding [insert name here] to the permit list.
Canyoneers have no one to blame but themselves for getting Das Boot added to the permit list. Das Boot is just a fancy name for a slight variation to The Subway.
Solution…. don’t be a dumbass…. be careful what permit you ask for. Use commonsense when picking up permits for a variation of a common trade route.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote: And yet Das Boot is. Go figure. That’s right, its beyond figuring.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote: Don’t believe Russell Gulch by itself was ever featured as a separate canyon from the Subway on the permits page.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ro2848” wrote: Russell Gulch is missing from the ZNP permits reservation page. Does anyone have a handle on the reason?
RAM
Good on ya!! Any pictures? I too have done it in…was it 1.5 to two feet and can attest to the fact that traction is excellent when snow is deep. I have also done it with 3 or 4 inches of snow and can report with equal certainty that…..the traction is really, really, REALLY poor…and scary! 😉 R PS my pictures?…. someday when converted from slide to digi world.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Colby Ashcroft wrote:
I’m not sure what angels landing looks like this year, but I hiked the whole thing last year over spring break, the last half mile was covered in over a foot of snow and most of the chains were buried. we went through ripping the chains out of the snow. I found it pretty fun, and in some ways you get really good traction because you have knee high snow offering support.
> ________________________________ > From: Christian Rightler And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
From: cardlaw22@… > Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:40:48 +0000 > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick.
R
_______________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>
—
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save > Changes".
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
> >
Colby Ashcroft
I’m not sure what angels landing looks like this year, but I hiked the whole thing last year over spring break, the last half mile was covered in over a foot of snow and most of the chains were buried. we went through ripping the chains out of the snow. I found it pretty fun, and in some ways you get really good traction because you have knee high snow offering support.
________________________________ From: Christian Rightler ChristianRightler@hotmail.com> To: Canyon Group Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 4:14:37 PM Subject: RE: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: cardlaw22@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:40:48 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick. > R
_______________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
—
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".
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TomJones
… even hackers like me, it only took 3 tries to do the upper part of the trail “no-hands”.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adventure_geek” wrote:
Blown out of proportion and hairy are relative terms. Those that have good balance and that are used to heights can easily make it up to the top without using hands at all…
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, Christian Rightler wrote:
And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> From: cardlaw22@
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:40:48 +0000
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick.
> R
_______________
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http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
>
>
Christian Rightler
Thanks for the information. I now know turning around on Angel’s Landing is no an option. You read some of these articles who’s objective is to get Angel’s Landing closed to the public and they have you start believing the place is a death trap where you are up there crawling over open air gaps and making leaps of faith that sometimes you make and soehtimes you don’t. Anyway, I think I will be fine.
In case anyone wondered about the permit situation I called and talked to the Zion Rangers. They said there will be no Permits given out for canyons east of the tunnel walk in or otherwise. They said the traffic through the tunnel will be slow enough, they do not want people hiking around by the roads and possibly in the way of the construction. So anybody like me holding out hope for a permit in May for a canyon such as Pine Creek can start working on different plans because there is no chance.
To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: aj@meet-outdoors.com Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:55:06 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Blown out of proportion and hairy are relative terms. Those that have good balance and that are used to heights can easily make it up to the top without using hands at all…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Christian Rightler wrote:
> And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
From: cardlaw22@… > Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:40:48 +0000 > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick.
R
________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
> >
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adventure_geek
Blown out of proportion and hairy are relative terms. Those that have good balance and that are used to heights can easily make it up to the top without using hands at all…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Christian Rightler wrote:
> And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
From: cardlaw22@… > Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:40:48 +0000 > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick.
R
_______________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
> >
Bernell Warner
Christian; Thousands of people hike up Angel’s Landing every year. If you have been doing canyoneering, I don’t thing you will have a problem. We have taken six year old’s up there. It’s important to respect the dangers, and use your best judgment. Can’t help you on the permits, but if it were me I would plan something else for this go around. Does someone know the time sechedule of the work that will be done? Bernell
________________________________ From: Christian Rightler ChristianRightler@hotmail.com> To: Canyon Group Sent: Wed, April 7, 2010 4:14:37 PM Subject: RE: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: cardlaw22@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:40:48 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Â
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick. > R
                 _______________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2
—
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
ro2848
RAM, I really appreciate your advice concerning the permit system. Nobody behind the backcountry desk can (or will) explain the system’s quirks.
I agree with you about ZNP. It has become like California…an extraordinarily beautiful place, full of people. Unfortunately, where there are lots of people, XXX.gov stomps in to try to referee players’ behavior and keep the idiots from destroying themselves. It is icky, but it’s the way the game is played.
I would love to bail on ZNP (just like I did on California), but there are still beautiful places there that I want to see. In the meantime, knowing the rules better really helps.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
Some good advice. Got an obscure canyon with a private name in Zion? They have a category called “Other” on the permit forms. You tell them that the place doesn’t have a name as far as you know. They will want to know what exit you plan to use. Give it to them. Likely a ranger will be trolling that lot when you finish up. If they ask about the canyon, shrug. Be vague. You are “permitted” to have near zero personality. Back when your getting the permit, they may quiz you about the place. A good answer is….”Map implies biggest rap can be (insert height). We have enough rope. Thanks. Bye.”
So does this mean one can descend Russell Gulch and go back up and out, without a permit? No. It means it could reside in the “other” category. I haven’t been to this Zion place since the spring (and for peaks mostly- Echo snow of course) and it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick. > R
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
The problem is folks start asking for a permit to [insert name here] and the rangers comply by adding [insert name here] to the permit list.
Canyoneers have no one to blame but themselves for getting Das Boot added to the permit list. Das Boot is just a fancy name for a slight variation to The Subway.
Solution…. don’t be a dumbass…. be careful what permit you ask for. Use commonsense when picking up permits for a variation of a common trade route.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
And yet Das Boot is. Go figure. That’s right, its beyond figuring.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote:
Don’t believe Russell Gulch by itself was ever featured as a separate canyon from the Subway on the permits page.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ro2848” wrote:
Russell Gulch is missing from the ZNP permits reservation page. Does anyone have a handle on the reason?
>
Christian Rightler
And for canyons like Pine Creek and Keyhole, are they going to give out Walk In permits during May (mainly curious about Memorial Day weekend) or are they just simply closed? Also, how bad is that last half mile of Angel’s Landing? Is it as hairy as everyone says or is a little bit blown out of proportion by hikers that might not be as used to heights as us canyoneers are? Do people ever wear harnesses and clip into the chain that runs up there or is that just unnecessary?
To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: cardlaw22@yahoo.com Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:40:48 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Russell Gulch Missing From ZNP Permit Reservations Page
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick. > R
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cardlaw22
Ain’t that the truth…. Zion permit system… humbug…
Scott Card
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick. > R
RAM
Some good advice. Got an obscure canyon with a private name in Zion? They have a category called “Other” on the permit forms. You tell them that the place doesn’t have a name as far as you know. They will want to know what exit you plan to use. Give it to them. Likely a ranger will be trolling that lot when you finish up. If they ask about the canyon, shrug. Be vague. You are “permitted” to have near zero personality. Back when your getting the permit, they may quiz you about the place. A good answer is….”Map implies biggest rap can be (insert height). We have enough rope. Thanks. Bye.”
So does this mean one can descend Russell Gulch and go back up and out, without a permit? No. It means it could reside in the “other” category. I haven’t been to this Zion place since the spring (and for peaks mostly- Echo snow of course) and it feels frustrating just talking about the place. Ick. R
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
The problem is folks start asking for a permit to [insert name here] and the rangers comply by adding [insert name here] to the permit list.
Canyoneers have no one to blame but themselves for getting Das Boot added to the permit list. Das Boot is just a fancy name for a slight variation to The Subway.
Solution…. don’t be a dumbass…. be careful what permit you ask for. Use commonsense when picking up permits for a variation of a common trade route.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote: > And yet Das Boot is. Go figure. That’s right, its beyond figuring.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote: > Don’t believe Russell Gulch by itself was ever featured as a separate canyon from the Subway on the permits page.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ro2848” wrote: > Russell Gulch is missing from the ZNP permits reservation page. Does anyone have a handle on the reason? >
Ice
The problem is folks start asking for a permit to [insert name here] and the rangers comply by adding [insert name here] to the permit list.
Canyoneers have no one to blame but themselves for getting Das Boot added to the permit list. Das Boot is just a fancy name for a slight variation to The Subway.
Solution…. don’t be a dumbass…. be careful what permit you ask for. Use commonsense when picking up permits for a variation of a common trade route.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote: And yet Das Boot is. Go figure. That’s right, its beyond figuring.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote: Don’t believe Russell Gulch by itself was ever featured as a separate canyon from the Subway on the permits page.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ro2848” wrote: Russell Gulch is missing from the ZNP permits reservation page. Does anyone have a handle on the reason?
RAM
And yet Das Boot is. Go figure. That’s right, its beyond figuring.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote:
> Don’t believe Russell Gulch by itself was ever featured as a separate > canyon from the Subway on the permits page.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ro2848” wrote:
Russell Gulch is missing from the ZNP permits reservation page. Does > anyone have a handle on the reason?
> >
Shaun
Don’t believe Russell Gulch by itself was ever featured as a separate canyon from the Subway on the permits page.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ro2848” wrote:
Russell Gulch is missing from the ZNP permits reservation page. Does anyone have a handle on the reason? >