You said a mouth full there! Looks simple when you write it down in one sentence.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Steve Newcomb”
As Tom says the problems are specific and manageable, but the solution > requires a change in the current mindset of the park’s managers.
Steve > Tucson, AZ
neil wilkinson
For the record: Qualified, competent guides who have taken the time to learn what the heck they are doing are an asset to our community of backcountry enthusiasts and a conduit for enjoyment to people who would know it no other way. Not to mention a great learning resource for the budding ‘do it yourself’ers’.
My stance, simply no guides in the National Park system.
Neil
restrac2000 Happyfeet00@Hotmail.com> wrote: So I ask this objectively, why are folks so vehemently against guiding? Is it strictly Zion? How closely related to one NP’s(GC) fiasco is this or has a similar fiasco happened many other places?
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neil wilkinson
It’s all about the deaths in Kolob and all the money they lost and bad press. The permit system IMO is all about covering their legal backsides and has little or nothing to do with anything else. The warm fuzzy justifications came out of a need to ‘MANAGE’ the parks liability exposure. It certainly was not created because they had nothing better to do. There are specific factors that is going to make it almost impossible to turn the pages backwards. IMO.
Neil
Steve Newcomb sanewcomb@yahoo.com> wrote: I am not of the faith that the permit system was created because some bureaucrat had nothing better to do. It came about as a response to something (I believe it was a large scouts jamboree taking hundreds through subway, and perhaps modified later by the Kolob incident), and increased use of the canyons will keep it in place.
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neil wilkinson
There is kind of a simplistic common sense to this approach. I’m tempted to agree.
beadysee beadysee@yahoo.com> wrote: Lets completely ditch the canyoneering permit system in Zion. We know the impacts from canyoneers. We know what canyons will be popular on weekends in prime season. We know we have to be responsible for our own safety. It just doesn’t serve any useful purpose.
-Brian in SLC
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Dave Pimental
The only conclusion that I come to, we defend what we believe to be uniquely “ours”. That which is “ours” is subjective and rarely finite. That which is “ours” is affected by the environment, its management(or lack there of), its surrounding industry(REI, guides, mags, guidebooks and their authors, outdoor programs) and most commonly, ourselves.
One Confused “Youth”
right there,in the last paragraph,you put your finger right on the problem with guides and guiding in PUBLIC places/IMO when a guide service is given the PRIVILEGE to do business on one of our natural resources,they soon begin to feel that they”own”the place and think that they possess some kind of right that is beyond the average citizen because they make their living off the permits they have been awarded/they then become firmly entrenched in the bureaucracy of the park and the government administrators feel that they must maintain the rules and regs. to cater to these commercial groups(government agencies seem to think that if it’s guided then there is less chance of litigation)/no offence,but these places were put aside for all of us to enjoy(without preferential treatment as to who can go where)/
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “bsutteer” wrote: > Be careful that you don’t wander into justification for guides in > the park… >
* Pretty fair access to the canyons by all
* Prevention of huge groups/numbers (in the 100s) in the canyons
* Reality check for unprepared visitors, weather advisory
* Keeping people out of canyons when conditions don’t warrent it >
The park should do something to restrict/inform unprepared people > who want
to go into the canyons, to the limit that they can.
Closing the canyons is necessary at times, ’cause some people just > don’t
get it. And the more of them that die, the less access for the > rest of us.
This is particularly true for canyoneering. A few deaths can > impact
everyone else because the community is so small, the sport so new > and
policies being written that will be in effect for years to come.
Some people seem to think if they just issued all the permits > ahead of
time over the internet, most the problems solved. Well, I think if > they
did this, all of you would find the canyons booked solid > throughout the
summer months in advance, maybe years. Maybe not this year, but > within a
few.
I am not of the faith that the permit system was created because > some bureaucrat had nothing better to do. It came about as a > response > to something (I believe it was a large scouts jamboree taking > hundreds through subway, and perhaps modified later by the Kolob > incident), and increased use of the canyons will keep it in place.
~tanya
Guiding outside the National Parks I have no problem with at all!
Leave the parks for the people to enjoy without the hassles. For me its not just guiding in the parks.. its helicopters noisy and flying so low in the parks, motor boats, groups of people with a guide, etc…
Grand Canyon is a disaster in my humble opinion. The North Rim is heaven compared to the commercialized disney land on the south side. Zion however is awesome! No guiding. Horses and mules kept to just the Sand Bench Trail. There are no helicopters unless they are SAR or in rare instances. etc…..
I suppose its that many of us want to go and enjoy our parks as they were meant to be and not deal with all the commercial stuff. As someone said.. commercialize Springdale but please leave Zion alone.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote: > I will foward this with the fact I am a certified ACA Guide.
After almost 10 years exploring the american landscape I have noticed > one overwhelming trend, the distaste and at moments vilification of > commercial guiding. It happens from the East Coast to West Coast, > mountain, rivers and canyons. Its a dichotomy that splits private > recreationalists from “tourists” in many eyes. And I am left with an > overwhelming why? I have fallen into both camps at seperate moments > in my adventuring.
So I ask this objectively, why are folks so vehemently against > guiding? Is it strictly Zion? How closely related to one NP’s(GC) > fiasco is this or has a similar fiasco happened many other places?
My observations and experiences lead me to the opinion that guiding > is a rewarding and positive experience for many. It can have a > positive and low impact relationship with the environment it > utilizes. All as subjective as private adventuring; river, mountain > or canyon. I look to the current change on the Salmon River. My > experiences locally in Moab. I am left wandering what qualifies > private trips to be more acceptable than commercial? If more > acceptable, where is the consistency with guidebooks and beta that > don’t have either direct financial benefit to the landscape or direct > and immediate control over impact? The consistency that holds these > and multitude of other forums and techniques vilified for their > impact on each and every one of our experiences? I am sincerely > curious, I fall into a multitude of categories and have held several > opionions; guide, private recreator that used guides and guidebooks, > private recreator that despised guidebooks and guides for the secret > places they revealed.
After ten years of experiences across the country I am often > mistified by my opinion and others regarding the outdoors, its > management(or lack there of) and its surrounding industry(REI, > guides, mags, guidebooks and their authors, outdoor programs). The > only conclusion that I come to, we defend what we believe to be > uniquely “ours”. That which is “ours” is subjective and rarely > finite. That which is “ours” is affected by the environment, its > management(or lack there of), its surrounding industry(REI, guides, > mags, guidebooks and their authors, outdoor programs) and most > commonly, ourselves.
One Confused “Youth”
restrac2000
I will foward this with the fact I am a certified ACA Guide.
After almost 10 years exploring the american landscape I have noticed one overwhelming trend, the distaste and at moments vilification of commercial guiding. It happens from the East Coast to West Coast, mountain, rivers and canyons. Its a dichotomy that splits private recreationalists from “tourists” in many eyes. And I am left with an overwhelming why? I have fallen into both camps at seperate moments in my adventuring.
So I ask this objectively, why are folks so vehemently against guiding? Is it strictly Zion? How closely related to one NP’s(GC) fiasco is this or has a similar fiasco happened many other places?
My observations and experiences lead me to the opinion that guiding is a rewarding and positive experience for many. It can have a positive and low impact relationship with the environment it utilizes. All as subjective as private adventuring; river, mountain or canyon. I look to the current change on the Salmon River. My experiences locally in Moab. I am left wandering what qualifies private trips to be more acceptable than commercial? If more acceptable, where is the consistency with guidebooks and beta that don’t have either direct financial benefit to the landscape or direct and immediate control over impact? The consistency that holds these and multitude of other forums and techniques vilified for their impact on each and every one of our experiences? I am sincerely curious, I fall into a multitude of categories and have held several opionions; guide, private recreator that used guides and guidebooks, private recreator that despised guidebooks and guides for the secret places they revealed.
After ten years of experiences across the country I am often mistified by my opinion and others regarding the outdoors, its management(or lack there of) and its surrounding industry(REI, guides, mags, guidebooks and their authors, outdoor programs). The only conclusion that I come to, we defend what we believe to be uniquely “ours”. That which is “ours” is subjective and rarely finite. That which is “ours” is affected by the environment, its management(or lack there of), its surrounding industry(REI, guides, mags, guidebooks and their authors, outdoor programs) and most commonly, ourselves.
One Confused “Youth”
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “bsutteer” wrote: > Be careful that you don’t wander into justification for guides in > the park…
> * Pretty fair access to the canyons by all
* Prevention of huge groups/numbers (in the 100s) in the canyons
* Reality check for unprepared visitors, weather advisory
* Keeping people out of canyons when conditions don’t warrent it
> The park should do something to restrict/inform unprepared people > who want
to go into the canyons, to the limit that they can.
Closing the canyons is necessary at times, ’cause some people just > don’t
get it. And the more of them that die, the less access for the > rest of us.
This is particularly true for canyoneering. A few deaths can > impact
everyone else because the community is so small, the sport so new > and
policies being written that will be in effect for years to come.
Some people seem to think if they just issued all the permits > ahead of
time over the internet, most the problems solved. Well, I think if > they
did this, all of you would find the canyons booked solid > throughout the
summer months in advance, maybe years. Maybe not this year, but > within a
few.
I am not of the faith that the permit system was created because > some bureaucrat had nothing better to do. It came about as a > response > to something (I believe it was a large scouts jamboree taking > hundreds through subway, and perhaps modified later by the Kolob > incident), and increased use of the canyons will keep it in place.
bsutteer
Be careful that you don’t wander into justification for guides in the park…
> * Pretty fair access to the canyons by all > * Prevention of huge groups/numbers (in the 100s) in the canyons > * Reality check for unprepared visitors, weather advisory > * Keeping people out of canyons when conditions don’t warrent it
> The park should do something to restrict/inform unprepared people who want > to go into the canyons, to the limit that they can.
Closing the canyons is necessary at times, ’cause some people just don’t > get it. And the more of them that die, the less access for the rest of us. > This is particularly true for canyoneering. A few deaths can impact > everyone else because the community is so small, the sport so new and > policies being written that will be in effect for years to come.
Some people seem to think if they just issued all the permits ahead of > time over the internet, most the problems solved. Well, I think if they > did this, all of you would find the canyons booked solid throughout the > summer months in advance, maybe years. Maybe not this year, but within a > few.
I am not of the faith that the permit system was created because some bureaucrat had nothing better to do. It came about as a response to something (I believe it was a large scouts jamboree taking hundreds through subway, and perhaps modified later by the Kolob incident), and increased use of the canyons will keep it in place.
Steve Newcomb
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote: > — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Wade Christensen” wrote:
I agree. Four groups of 12 in Pine Creek all with a single rope on a
Saturday morning is about as smart as making all the backcountry > users stand in that God-for-saken permit line at the Backcountry Desk > every morning. The current state of affairs with backcountry > management is ridiculous.
And as I think we all know, the current system does absolutely nothing > about the above scenario.
Tom
Except prevent 8 or more groups of 12 people on single rope……
Although I agree the current system could use improvement, some of the factors it does address in a positive way have not been brought up much
* Pretty fair access to the canyons by all * Prevention of huge groups/numbers (in the 100s) in the canyons * Reality check for unprepared visitors, weather advisory * Keeping people out of canyons when conditions don’t warrent it
By reserving at least 40% of the permits to walkups the day before, this system keeps many of the slots used because the permits go to people actually in the park. It’s basically first come, first serve. I would like a higher percentage, like 70% , until there are significant numbers of walkups turned away. Then move more towards a lottery.
The park should do something to restrict/inform unprepared people who want to go into the canyons, to the limit that they can.
Closing the canyons is necessary at times, ’cause some people just don’t get it. And the more of them that die, the less access for the rest of us. This is particularly true for canyoneering. A few deaths can impact everyone else because the community is so small, the sport so new and policies being written that will be in effect for years to come.
Some people seem to think if they just issued all the permits ahead of time over the internet, most the problems solved. Well, I think if they did this, all of you would find the canyons booked solid throughout the summer months in advance, maybe years. Maybe not this year, but within a few.
I am not of the faith that the permit system was created because some bureaucrat had nothing better to do. It came about as a response to something (I believe it was a large scouts jamboree taking hundreds through subway, and perhaps modified later by the Kolob incident), and increased use of the canyons will keep it in place.
A lot of people don’t understand the backcountry permit system at the Grand Canyon. It’s such a large place – why can’t they just let everyone do what they want to do?! But before they started restricting who could go in, up to 1000 people would end up at Indian Gardens trying to clear some flat space to put down their sleeping bag. Obviously the area could not sustain that amount of use. That was in the 70’s.
Steve Tucson, AZ
scott c.
Double amen to the below statements. This is my ironic experience of waiting, I was assisting leading a group through Mystery and my group of -yes I am hesitant to say but — 12 waited behind some wannabe guide with three other people at EVERY rap station. (this particular trip was pre-canyon limit) This nut was tying knots to take pressure off knots. He had two very long ropes that required perfection in coiling at each rap etc etc. He would never let us pass. Sounds odd to let a larger group play through but by the big rap station at Mystery Spring, the three in this guy’s group were very apologetic for their guide. Hope they weren’t paying him.
adkramoo adkramoo@aol.com> wrote:
Why isn’t there a “play thru” ethic, like in golf? Are we not civilized??
However, the thought that you need to regulate Bulloch Gulch in the same way is madness.
Or dozens of other canyons. Amen Ram
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
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Josh Gubler
i think, over all, we are pretty civilized. i’ve always had groups let me play through, usually rapelling thier line. and i’ve always let the speed demons pass me with the same consideration.
— adkramoo adkramoo@aol.com> wrote:
> Why isn’t there a “play thru” ethic, like in golf? > Are we not civilized??
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Josh Gubler
time it right and you could jug another groups rope at the cathedral and potshot your way up the last 2 raps. could be a lot of fun.
— Wade Christensen wade@canyonquest.com> wrote:
> Speaking of Pine Creek, I believe it can done from > the bottom all the > way to the Cathedral without rope in its current > condition (bypassing > the last 2 raps on the south side). I think maybe > I’ll hike that this > weekend and when the Ranger asks me for my permit > I’ll give him the > bird.
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— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ionsmuse” wrote: > PS > My own most vehement and terrifing experience with crowding was > waiting for a guided group to get off the rap station down the Owen- > Spalding on the Grand, watching lightning strikes march closer and > closer. Funny that Zion has made safety and issue, and as of yet the Tetons have not (even given the rash of lightning fatalities).
Tetons used to require everyone get a permit for climbing, even day climbs. Then they came to their senses. Even survived a lawsuit or two.
I personally wouldn’t wait for a guided group. I’d have either used the alternate rap line to climber’s right, or, downclimbed the O-S, or insisted to play through (and, most guides are pretty good about that).
But, usually not an issue if you get an early enough start to avoid the pm t-showers…
Was re-reading a few ol’ Ascent magazines from back in the day (late 60’s, early 70’s). Pretty amazing to hear folks talk about park service regulations, the park shouldn’t be our mommies with regard to safety, the park shouldn’t be involved in SAR (something that volunteer or paid climbers do in other places). Some issues just don’t go away…
Crowding, permits, guides, bolts…all issues back then, all issues now.
I really enjoy going to the Tetons to climb. No permit. Don’t want one, don’t need one. Sure, I’ll call JLRS to get up to date info (always with a grain of salt). But, a permit just serves me nada. And, burdens the park with havin’ to keep some sort of track. Pain in the arse and a waste of limited resourses. I get there late, sometime don’t even enter the park the night prior. Up early, on the trail, gettin’ the job done. Havin’ to wait for a permit would kill a whole day that I could have used to do an early approach and/or climb. I just don’t want to waste that kind of free time.
Lets completely ditch the canyoneering permit system in Zion. We know the impacts from canyoneers. We know what canyons will be popular on weekends in prime season. We know we have to be responsible for our own safety. It just doesn’t serve any useful purpose.
-Brian in SLC
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Wade Christensen” wrote: > I agree. Four groups of 12 in Pine Creek all with a single rope on a > Saturday morning is about as smart as making all the backcountry users stand in that God-for-saken permit line at the Backcountry Desk every morning. The current state of affairs with backcountry management is ridiculous. >
And as I think we all know, the current system does absolutely nothing about the above scenario.
Tom
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson wrote: > we need an appropriate balance, the thought of Pine Creek with no group limit is a bit scary. Getting caught behind a group of 10 giggling teenagers from rap station to rap station can be fun enough w/out it being a free 4 all.
Why isn’t there a “play thru” ethic, like in golf? Are we not civilized??
However, the thought that you need to regulate Bulloch Gulch in the same way is madness.
Or dozens of other canyons. Amen Ram
Wade Christensen
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson wrote: > Funny Wade, you made me laugh. In case you’re serious. I think Ram is saying we need an appropriate balance, the thought of Pine Creek with no group limit is a bit scary. Getting caught behind a group of 10 giggling teenagers from rap station to rap station can be fun enough w/out it being a free 4 all.
I agree. Four groups of 12 in Pine Creek all with a single rope on a Saturday morning is about as smart as making all the backcountry users stand in that God-for-saken permit line at the Backcountry Desk every morning. The current state of affairs with backcountry management is ridiculous.
Speaking of Pine Creek, I believe it can done from the bottom all the way to the Cathedral without rope in its current condition (bypassing the last 2 raps on the south side). I think maybe I’ll hike that this weekend and when the Ranger asks me for my permit I’ll give him the bird.
neil wilkinson
Funny Wade, you made me laugh. In case you’re serious. I think Ram is saying we need an appropriate balance, the thought of Pine Creek with no group limit is a bit scary. Getting caught behind a group of 10 giggling teenagers from rap station to rap station can be fun enough w/out it being a free 4 all. However, the thought that you need to regulate Bulloch Gulch in the same way is madness.
Neil
Wade Christensen wade@canyonquest.com> wrote: — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ionsmuse” wrote: > The third time was in high summer, and my wife > and I took my parents and sister down even though we couldn’t get a > permit. … > That said, it seems to me that some kind of permit system is > appropriate
So you support the permit system as long as it doesn’t apply to you? Talk about a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a burrito pack. You don’t happen to work for the NPS do you? I guess I can kinda see your point. “I support limited access so I will encounter less people in the canyons I poach.”
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
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Wade Christensen
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ionsmuse” wrote: > The third time was in high summer, and my wife > and I took my parents and sister down even though we couldn’t get a > permit. … > That said, it seems to me that some kind of permit system is > appropriate
So you support the permit system as long as it doesn’t apply to you? Talk about a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a burrito pack. You don’t happen to work for the NPS do you? I guess I can kinda see your point. “I support limited access so I will encounter less people in the canyons I poach.”
ionsmuse
I was wondering if anyone had an idea of how > to do it slightly more scientifically?
And let’s talk Subway, first.
It seems to me that their are two different questions here: one having to do with safety (backing up on rap stations), the other to do with aesthetics (how many people is just too many)?
I think it will always be arbitrary, and aside from a compromise based on several people with lots of experience with the given route I don’t see any particularly effective way to look at the issue.
For instance, I’ve been down the Subway three times. Once, we did the normal Subway, got an early start, and only saw people after the last falls when we stopped to eat lunch and play in the water. The next time we did Das Boot, and barely got a permit. We got logjammed behind some Czechs at the “boy scout” boulder, and saw maybe a dozen others further down. The third time was in high summer, and my wife and I took my parents and sister down even though we couldn’t get a permit. Had to explain to a group how to deal with the boulder (again), and waited a good 20 minutes at Keyhole while a guy lowered a slew of kids down with a length of Walmart rope. What got to me was less the wait (it was a gorgeous day), but thinking how much it was going to suck having to help evac the one kid to fall out of the loop of rope they were sitting in and got a head injury.
That said, it seems to me that some kind of permit system is appropriate (and yes I feel somewhat bad about going without that time). An excess of people it seems to me does have a minor effect on safety, and a major effect on one’s “wilderness experience” (though if you want that just go in November). If nothing else having to get a permit forces (most) people to come into contact with a ranger, which hopefully filters out some of the less prepared.
Maybe having an unlimited number of permits, and $5 a piece, with all groups limited to 8 or less would be appropriate. The cash could fund trail maintanence and rescue, and the filtration effect would hopefully do something, and the hordes of 10 kid, 2 adult groups would be forced to be more prudent. Those wanting a more rarified experience can visit in the off-season, or get an alpine start.
Off course, the ultimate would be to close the Kolob road to vehicles and make everyone bike to the trailhead.
PS My own most vehement and terrifing experience with crowding was waiting for a guided group to get off the rap station down the Owen- Spalding on the Grand, watching lightning strikes march closer and closer. Funny that Zion has made safety and issue, and as of yet the Tetons have not (even given the rash of lightning fatalities).
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Steve Newcomb” wrote: > Our impacts may be small now, but will only grow as the sport continues to > grow and expand into the seldom used canyon areas. If all the erosion at > the Mystery entrance is caused by less than 13 people walking through each > day, then it’s clear a small number of people can cause a lot of erosion.
They can indeed. The good news is that the rest of the plateau is not Zion. Zion is a much more vertical world than most of the rest of the plateau. Steep Carmel approach gullies are not the rule elsewhere. What will be a concern is reducing muliple access trails in the more horizontal regions, but managing those resourses should be easier, if we as a community get involved. Poison Springs area, to Slidenide Canyon needs this now. Ram