Stopping rope grooves….was illusions update

I think a lot of people don’t know about the courtesy meat anchor on tough rappel starts. In general, most people in most groups don’t think to offer or choose not to take help when it is offered. Its not part of their canyoneering culture or experience. Sometimes it feels like I am with a group of people bouldering. ;-) Team canyoneering is more fun IMO and safer, but that is another topic. I know that we forget to offer a courtesy rap at times. If it becomes the mentality of a group that only one person need take a higher risk, then these safety measures take hold and become standard thinking. What often gets overlooked is how much time is spent on an awkward rappel. Times it by the size of your group and it bogs you down. Save the time. Help each other.

I think a lot of groups don’t lengthen to the edge because of time. Sometimes folks are cold….or late….or impatient…..or because nobody is watching. That is a form of not caring about rope grooves enough as opposed to not caring at all. R

— In Yahoo Canyons Group, rging@… wrote:
“Maybe we could focus some of our efforts on teaching new people. For a > simple example I see lots of people say to extend an anchor over the lip to > keep rope grooves to a minimum. Some drops are situated such that this > feels VERY unsafe to a new canyoneer.”
That would be a top belay (courtesy belay) off a meat anchor or similar just until you are tight on the rope and situated. Anyone that is skilled enough to build a safe anchor should know this so the problem must lie elsewhere. Maybe some people don’t care about rope grooves?
—– Original Message —– > From: Luke To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Sent: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 00:18:49 -0400 (EDT) > Subject: RE: [from Canyons Group] Re: illusions update

I have glanced at this thread just a little only because it seems to have a
> common thread running in it as the Undisclosed Canyons thread running now as
> well. Ok aside from all the name calling and trash talking which I tend to
> ignore.

I am curious is there still a secret canyon theme running in AZ? I don’t
> mean are there a few secret canyons out there. What I mean is, is there
> still an active set of people who propagate beta in the middle ground
> between sharing and secret keeping like “show don’t tell” or pics and
> stories with no location, or only share with close friends etc. Or has that
> mostly calmed down after a large amount of beta has been spewed? Just
> curious.

Seems to me if we share this stuff openly and avoid all the high school “in
> crowd” or cloak and dagger who do I trust BS, then a lot of the drama dies
> off. It’s just an open canyoneering world where we all go play in cool
> places. Since we humans seem to have an affinity for finding something to
> hate and gang up to attack it, maybe we could focus that aggressive energy
> into tracking down those with bad ethics and work to police the canyons.

Maybe we could focus some of our efforts on teaching new people. For a
> simple example I see lots of people say to extend an anchor over the lip to
> keep rope grooves to a minimum. Some drops are situated such that this
> feels VERY unsafe to a new canyoneer. I haven’t found a good source (online
> or book) that helps explain how to do this safely in a way that a noob will
> be ok with and actually take the time to do. Ok I haven’t looked that hard
> for it but it does seem we could focus our energy on policing the numb nuts
> out there and trying to educate the new canyoneers who may not yet know
> better.

That seems to be a lot more productive use of energy than playing cloak and
> dagger, secret canyon, elitist games.

I have no knowledge of the illusions beta outlet or the trashing of canyons
> etc. I also have no intent of even trying to get into it. Way too much
> drama there. But I am genuinely curious if the middle ground drama club
> scene has ramped down after a lot of canyons were ousted?

Luke

From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of
> vapormanb
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 8:20 PM
> To: Yahoo Canyons Group

Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: illusions update

If you’re going to rant and insult others, at least get the facts
> straight…

Leifer didn’t remove those PVC monstrosities because I know who did and it
> wasn’t Leifer. As of a month ago, the one in Insomnia is still there until
> my friend goes back and removes it. =p The crew who had the accident in
> Insomnia had plenty of beta from my postings on hikearizona.com and the
> accident had NOTHING to do with lack of beta. I’ve since become good friends
> with some of that group and have done a few tough canyons with them. So it
> pains me to see them thrown under the bus all in the name of ‘proving’ some
> juvenile point…

When I first was getting interested in canyoneering, it was very tough to
> get started in AZ because there were only a few beta’d canyons out there.
> But thankfully Todd soon released his book and the field was blown wide
> open. There were still secret canyons out there in the Anchas, Mazzies, West
> Fork, and the Grand Canyon but those would be saved for when I was
> experienced enough to go looking for them. Got confirmation that my guesses
> on the West Fork canyons were accurate in exchange that I’d post beta & pics
> on HAZ. I continued finding more secret canyons in the Anchas & Mazzies and
> posted those on HAZ as well so that other newer canyoneers could enjoy them
> just like my friends and I were able to enjoy them. Do I regret sharing
> others discoveries without there permission? Not one bit! Only beta I got
> from them was their very revealing photos posted online. I’ve found a few of
> my own canyon discoveries and have openly shared those online as well. Grand
> Can! yon book came out a bit after than and again blew open the AZ canyon
> scene. Kind of nice to have all these loads of canyons available for us down
> here in AZ to enjoy with most of the AZ canyon drama being in the past… It
> seems ridiculous for you to rock the boat again, stir up old conflicts, and
> insult Leifer over some bolts placed most likely by guiding companies who
> wanted to make the canyon ‘safer’ for their clients. =(

Brian

— In Yahoo Canyons Group ,
> “JosephD/Sara” wrote:

Actually I DID place canyon registers in all canyons kept secret at the
> time, similar to a cave register with all important beta, just in case some
> one found it, they could make an educated decision about proceeding down the
> canyon OR coming back later and bringing the right gear.

Tyler Williams did Insomnia with a 200′ rope even though it stated in the
> register “315′ free hanging rap” and thus the bright pink webbing and
> additional bolt station that was NOT needed at all.

Mr. Eric Liefer decided to take these out of Insomnia AND Illusions on his
> own accord.

Thus someone in Insomnia almost died on the big rap and almost killed
> rescue crews trying to get to the injured person. Nice.

Does this clarify it for you?

I agree with Tom, the secrecy is not perfect but pretty darn good.

-Joe

> >