Sonny Lawrence broke some Rapides I sent him. These are the 1/4″ size that I buy at Bolt and Nut Supply, Salt Lake City, and resell on Canyoneering USA.
Here are the results:
Screw link “China” 5.7X2.6 cm, 6 mm diameter, 10 each:
broke at 19.8 kN, 21 kN, 16.1 kN, 13 kN, 16.6 kN, 16.4 kN, 16.8 kN, 11.1 kN, 21.4 kN, 9 kN
Comments about source: I buy these from the same place, and they come in the same box, but they are always a little bit different. Sometimes they come stamped with “SWL 1250 lbs” meaning that the Safe Working Load is 1250 lbs, sometimes not. These kind of rapid links are not intended for human safety. They are sometimes called “Pacific Rim” – meaning they are made in any of 1000 factories around the Pacific Rim, now mostly in China.
Comments about the Results:
a Kilonewton is the MKS unit of force, and is equivalent to about 225 lbs in the normal, street use of the unit pound.
So: Ten samples, strongest 4725 lbs, weakest 2025 lbs, many in the middle around 16 kN (3600 lbs).
What does this mean: engineers may disagree, but this data is ***SCAAAAARY***! Data all over the place. Two weak values is very scary. It means the quality control is very, very bad; most likely some of the dimensions are out of control and thus the strength varies widely.
(If this kind of data showed up at Black Diamond, the product would be shut down, the process examined until the blunder found. Actually, BD would never find itself with such scary data – the bell gets rung and production stopped by any problem about 1/10th the size of this one).
Comments: Brian Cabe had earlier expressed concerns about the crappy Quality control on these things, and now I see why! This is pretty whacked.
Backpedaling: of course, we don’t know what standard the links were built to, nor if they were all built to the same standard. Probably not.
Conclusion: Tom should find a more reliable source for this product.
Tom
Hank Moon
>>>Unfortunately, in English units, the 1/4″ are “too small” and the 5/16″ are “too big” (too heavy). Wish there was a size inbetween.
*** There is: No. 7 Maillon Rapide
>>>The Aluminum ones are only good for about 9 kN when new.
SMC claims MBS of 16.6 kN (3 sigma) for theirs…
http://www.smcgear.net/products.asp?cat=5&pid=44
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James Schnepel
Rings are difficult to add to existing webbing.
>> but I bought a few thick, heavy steal ones for top- roping and I love them. If I had to pick, I’d choose these bomber rings over a 1/4″ quick link any day. -Joe
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Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JoeB” wrote: > A few naive questions about rapid links:
Are the 5/16″‘s in more common use than the 1/4″‘s? Just eye-balling a > 1/4, I’d have a hard time trying to convince myself to trust my life > to one of those little things.
Unfortunately, in English units, the 1/4″ are “too small” and the 5/16″ are “too big” (too heavy). Wish there was a size inbetween. Report on the 5/16″ soon.
Would doubled up/reversed rapid links be prudent? Any rope pull > problems? > They could. Since the two do not lie well together (like rap rings do), there is the possibility they would jam. Given the weight, it would seem better to use a single, large rapide.
> Are rap rings really out of favor? I know aluminum ones don’t age very gracefully, but I bought a few thick, heavy steal ones for top- roping and I love them. If I had to pick, I’d choose these bomber rings over a 1/4″ quick link any day. -Joe
The Aluminum ones are only good for about 9 kN when new. The QC on them is probably a lot better. They get chewed up real fast by wet sandy ropes.
Steel? Heavy.
Tom
Tom Jones
I submitted 10 5/16″ “hardware store” rapid links to Sonny also. He only broke two in the first session – hopefully he will get back to them sometime soon.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson wrote: > 5/16″ is my stand by. Pulling anything but 8mm rope through 1/4″ can be a pain. IMO, 1/4″ links belong in the obscure spots you need to leave them.
Those steel rings are nice but kinda beefy to haul around. However, you don’t seem phased by lugging around a big pack.
Neil
JoeB wrote: > A few naive questions about rapid links:
Are the 5/16″‘s in more common use than the 1/4″‘s? Just eye- balling a > 1/4, I’d have a hard time trying to convince myself to trust my life > to one of those little things.
Would doubled up/reversed rapid links be prudent? Any rope pull > problems?
Are rap rings really out of favor? I know aluminum ones don’t age very > gracefully, but I bought a few thick, heavy steal ones for top- roping > and I love them. If I had to pick, I’d choose these bomber rings over > a 1/4″ quick link any day. -Joe
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neil wilkinson
5/16″ is my stand by. Pulling anything but 8mm rope through 1/4″ can be a pain. IMO, 1/4″ links belong in the obscure spots you need to leave them.
Those steel rings are nice but kinda beefy to haul around. However, you don’t seem phased by lugging around a big pack.
Neil
JoeB joe@citrusmilo.com> wrote: A few naive questions about rapid links:
Are the 5/16″‘s in more common use than the 1/4″‘s? Just eye-balling a 1/4, I’d have a hard time trying to convince myself to trust my life to one of those little things.
Would doubled up/reversed rapid links be prudent? Any rope pull problems?
Are rap rings really out of favor? I know aluminum ones don’t age very gracefully, but I bought a few thick, heavy steal ones for top-roping and I love them. If I had to pick, I’d choose these bomber rings over a 1/4″ quick link any day. -Joe
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
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JoeB
A few naive questions about rapid links:
Are the 5/16″‘s in more common use than the 1/4″‘s? Just eye-balling a 1/4, I’d have a hard time trying to convince myself to trust my life to one of those little things.
Would doubled up/reversed rapid links be prudent? Any rope pull problems?
Are rap rings really out of favor? I know aluminum ones don’t age very gracefully, but I bought a few thick, heavy steal ones for top-roping and I love them. If I had to pick, I’d choose these bomber rings over a 1/4″ quick link any day. -Joe
Charly Oliver
They’re a little more expensive($5.00 US) but 25kN long axis, 10kN short.
http://tinyurl.com/cwxsz
Available at your local climbing store.
Charly
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson wrote: > From my experience Super Wal Mart carries ISO 400 Mallion Rapids. Less than $3 too. I’m not endorsing this as the best source but they are better than the crap at Home Depot/Lowes and each link is working load stamped.
Neil
Koen wrote: > Probably not the same price as the Chinese ones but tested & > reliable http://www.peguet.fr/peguet/default.html
> Just handling them the quality difference is obvious between > these and ordinary heardware store ones.
Koen
> When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save > Changes".
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.
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neil wilkinson
From my experience Super Wal Mart carries ISO 400 Mallion Rapids. Less than $3 too. I’m not endorsing this as the best source but they are better than the crap at Home Depot/Lowes and each link is working load stamped.
Neil
Koen pocoloco@skynet.be> wrote: Probably not the same price as the Chinese ones but tested & reliable http://www.peguet.fr/peguet/default.html
Just handling them the quality difference is obvious between these and ordinary heardware store ones.
Koen
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".
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Koen
Comments: Brian Cabe had earlier expressed concerns about the > crappy Quality control on these things, and now I see why! This is > pretty whacked.
Backpedaling: of course, we don’t know what standard the links were > built to, nor if they were all built to the same standard. Probably > not.
Conclusion: Tom should find a more reliable source for this product. >
Probably not the same price as the Chinese ones but tested & reliable http://www.peguet.fr/peguet/default.html
Just handling them the quality difference is obvious between these and ordinary heardware store ones.
Koen
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, steve mestdagh wrote: > Maybe the link see’s an order of magnitude increase of force, leading > to 2000 lbs force.
True, but any sane company breaking that same sample set would use some statistics (lets say 3 sigma). With a standard deviation that large – they would rate more like 860lbs. That is 97.XX % would break above that number (if I remember correctly). And that is a sample size of 10!
-t-
steve mestdagh
Quality Engineering is smart and the manufacturer you buy from needs one. Let me play the devil’s advocate though.
I weigh 145 lbs. Let’s say I took my pack and ropes for a swim and now weigh 200 lbs. This is well below your weakest link (pun intended). Now I blow the rap somewhat and dynamically load the bombproof anchor. Maybe the link see’s an order of magnitude increase of force, leading to 2000 lbs force. This is a problem but what are the odds?
In any case, good point. I’m going to start buying the stronger ones at my local hardware store. Thanks Tom. -steve
— Tom Jones ratagoni@xmission.com> wrote:
> Sonny Lawrence broke some Rapides I sent him. These are the 1/4″ > size that I buy at Bolt and Nut Supply, Salt Lake City, and resell > on Canyoneering USA.
Here are the results:
Screw link “China” 5.7X2.6 cm, 6 mm diameter, 10 each:
broke at 19.8 kN, 21 kN, 16.1 kN, 13 kN, 16.6 kN, 16.4 kN, 16.8 kN, > 11.1 kN, 21.4 kN, 9 kN
Comments about source: I buy these from the same place, and they > come in the same box, but they are always a little bit different. > Sometimes they come stamped with “SWL 1250 lbs” meaning that the > Safe Working Load is 1250 lbs, sometimes not. These kind of rapid > links are not intended for human safety. They are sometimes > called “Pacific Rim” – meaning they are made in any of 1000 > factories around the Pacific Rim, now mostly in China.
Comments about the Results:
a Kilonewton is the MKS unit of force, and is equivalent to about > 225 lbs in the normal, street use of the unit pound.
So: Ten samples, strongest 4725 lbs, weakest 2025 lbs, many in the > middle around 16 kN (3600 lbs).
What does this mean: engineers may disagree, but this data is > ***SCAAAAARY***! Data all over the place. Two weak values is very > scary. It means the quality control is very, very bad; most likely > some of the dimensions are out of control and thus the strength > varies widely.
(If this kind of data showed up at Black Diamond, the product would > be shut down, the process examined until the blunder found. > Actually, BD would never find itself with such scary data – the bell > gets rung and production stopped by any problem about 1/10th the > size of this one).
Comments: Brian Cabe had earlier expressed concerns about the > crappy Quality control on these things, and now I see why! This is > pretty whacked.
Backpedaling: of course, we don’t know what standard the links were > built to, nor if they were all built to the same standard. Probably > not.
Conclusion: Tom should find a more reliable source for this product.
Tom
>