Yes, I am going to have to check the markings on my Maillon Rapides tonight when I get home.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones”
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “David Campen”
Thanks, I knew I had seen the Peguet Maillon Rapide site in English.
> http://www.peguet.fr/us/peguet-entreprise.html
Interesting reading. While they offer rapides that meet the > Mountaineering PPE standard EN 12275, the ones they sell me do not. > Might have to look into this.
Tom >
desertres
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
50-60’s? Nope, 80’s for Phil. Maybe your thinking of Deming. > Nonsense? I’m aghast! Fad? Tell the auto industry in the U.S. > that “quality” is a fad…
Define quality then. What’s all new school, O guru of quality? >
You want the math or the lecture ;-)? The better question is not what it is, but how to measure it…since it really is a bunch of math (believe me, the picture rarely helps) The first aspect of any measurement is dimension…for example…is a boat really good quality if it floats and is made out of expensive wood? Or is it the dimension of the boat which takes in account its stability(
David Campen
Last night I checked my stash of Maillons Rapide. They all have the “CE” mark but not the “EN 362” or “EN 12275” marks. http://www.peguet.fr/us/peguet-qualite-securite.html#
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
> When I buy the stuff from Maillons Rapide, I can be very, very sure > of what I am getting, even if they are not the CE stamped ones.
Tom >
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “desertres” wrote: > that definition is reguritated old-school from the 1950-60s..aka TQM fad nonsense.
50-60’s? Nope, 80’s for Phil. Maybe your thinking of Deming. Nonsense? I’m aghast! Fad? Tell the auto industry in the U.S. that “quality” is a fad…
Define quality then. What’s all new school, O guru of quality?
Methinks someone didn’t take the soup…
> Anyways, what I was saying was its improper to say a steel ring has an > inferior quality just because its used for mooring yachts.
Sure, different requirements. Quality being the conformance to those requirements.
> If I have it right, at one time canyoneering used to be to combine > different activities..it wasnt about reinventing every item. Seems > nowadays theres a canyoneering brand image that has to be lived up to > for everything and the buzzword is usually “quality”….
Yep. Some might percieve a conflict of interest… Which is why I always try to push on what folks mean when they say, “I only by quality rapides made in France and not the junk made in China”. Other than the label, really, what are the differences? I suspect the main difference is that folks on lunch break in China eat rice with a bit of fish sauce on it, and, the folks in France eat a bit of fromage on a baguette or un petit sandwich.
Quality is free. Hee hee.
-Brian in SLC
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
Still remember when Tom busted a couple of the teeny 1/4″ ones > (eastern rim hardware store models). Pretty consistant results. > What, Tom, north of 6000 lbs each, and they busted within 100 pounds > of each other?
-Brian in SLC > First batch, yeah, pretty good.
Second Batch! totally different story.
Bought the ‘same item’ at the same reputable place (Bolt and Nut Supply) and they were clearly from a different vendor. Threads barely meshed. Sonny broke some from the new purchase and some from the old purchase. The new ones had a fairly tight SD, but at around 3000 lbs (as I remember), while the old ones were still up around 6k. Needless to say, the SD on the combined batch was terrible.
Which is why I cringe when people say the rapides they have are good. yes, maybe they are, but ‘hardware store rapid links’ is a very, very loose definition, and some of that will be quite good, and some of it may be quite bad. Even worse if you buy it on “Ebay”. Ebay is a vast, worldwide flea market, and buying this kind of a thing is a total crap shoot.
When I buy the stuff from Maillons Rapide, I can be very, very sure of what I am getting, even if they are not the CE stamped ones.
Tom
desertres
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “gajslk” wrote:
Unfortunately, this leads to a definition of quality so variable as to
be completely useless, since everyone has their own set of
expectations. If you’re going to discuss something rationally, you
need a well-defined, common set of definitions. If the goal is to
avoid rationality at all costs(think politics), you need the
individualistic, fuzzy non-definition.
Quality guru Phil (Quality is Free, Quality without Tears) says quality > has to be defined as “conformance to requirements” and not “goodness”. >
that definition is reguritated old-school from the 1950-60s..aka TQM fad nonsense. Throw in words like standard deviation to complete. Try though to apply that to the quality of a website for example…..
Anyways, what I was saying was its improper to say a steel ring has an inferior quality just because its used for mooring yachts. Digging further, the statement really was it was inferior because of QC, that they didnt test a human load. Well, they dont need to test a human load. Nor do they need to ensure that each one is exactly X.XX in length. Those arent the expectations. If these rings were in fact not for use in canyoneering, they wouldnt be sold right now as if they cant hold a human, there would be massive failures in holding heavy boats.
If I have it right, at one time canyoneering used to be to combine different activities..it wasnt about reinventing every item. Seems nowadays theres a canyoneering brand image that has to be lived up to for everything and the buzzword is usually “quality”….
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000″ wrote: > Is there any documentation of rapide failure in the field?
Not seen or heard of it. Seen them so corroded that they couldn’t be removed. And, have seem them almost completely grooved out from rope pulling.
Still remember when Tom busted a couple of the teeny 1/4” ones (eastern rim hardware store models). Pretty consistant results. What, Tom, north of 6000 lbs each, and they busted within 100 pounds of each other?
-Brian in SLC
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “gajslk” wrote: > Unfortunately, this leads to a definition of quality so variable as to > be completely useless, since everyone has their own set of > expectations. If you’re going to discuss something rationally, you > need a well-defined, common set of definitions. If the goal is to > avoid rationality at all costs(think politics), you need the > individualistic, fuzzy non-definition.
Quality guru Phil (Quality is Free, Quality without Tears) says quality has to be defined as “conformance to requirements” and not “goodness”.
“Genuine Maillons Rapides from France – actual quality control, good workmanship!”
Chuckle…
-Brian in SLC
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
Last summer, someone went to an awful lot of trouble to install > new
bolts in Mystery Canyon. Glue ins, two per station, with a groove
cut in the rock to seat the base of the ‘ring’ in. Personally, I
think they chose exactly “where” a little oddly, but…
Is there any documentation of rapide failure in the field?
Phillip
gajslk
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “desertres” wrote:
Quality is not the same as all this QC talk. Quality is measured in > expectation.
Unfortunately, this leads to a definition of quality so variable as to be completely useless, since everyone has their own set of expectations. If you’re going to discuss something rationally, you need a well-defined, common set of definitions. If the goal is to avoid rationality at all costs(think politics), you need the individualistic, fuzzy non-definition.
Gordon
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote: > Last summer, someone went to an awful lot of trouble to install new > bolts in Mystery Canyon. Glue ins, two per station, with a groove > cut in the rock to seat the base of the ‘ring’ in. Personally, I > think they chose exactly “where” a little oddly, but…
What make were the glue ins? Them Petzl rigs are spendy. Wonder what glue they used. Stainless?
Yeah, its pretty easy to be critical of someone’s work, especially placement of fixed anchors. Its hard to get the position correct for everyone. I always try to cut folks some slack, seeing an effort expended for the community, rather than a poor job in position, but, its hard not to be critical (especially ’cause we’re so darn perfect! Ha ha).
> Connecting those sophisticated, labor intensive, fabulously strong > glue-in bolts to the really strong 1″ tubular webbing were the > crudest chinese-made rapid links I have ever seen. Big though.
Wonder if the webbing was added later by another party?
Yeah. Strange stuff out there. I liked the rerigged chain anchors in Employee/Lodge Canyon where someone added a bunch of webbing to back up the chain. Etc.
Ran into one of your ol’ co-workers anchors in Tuolumne a few years ago (Dale). 5mm perlon knotted and placed in a construction. Hairball. I guess when you only weigh a buck nuttin’ you might get away with that…
Then there’s folks who bury packs in the dirt and rap off them…
Really like the Fixe and Faders anchors that have a bolt hanger on top, chain, down to anchor hanger, chain and lower hanger connected to a fat ring. But, I’m sure some folks won’t like a single fat ring, though. Bomber rig, compact, vertically oriented. Not much freedom but that can be an advantage in soft rock too (no groove out from the swinging anchor). Wouldn’t be hard to replace if the ring gets worn, either.
I worry about those glue-ins, when folks drag their ropes directly through them, and groove them out, they aren’t easy to field maintain. Glue-in to a rapide to a fat ring would be sweet. But, then you might have folks rippin’ the rapide and rings off, and rapping directly off the glue in. Oh well.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
What’s funny is what folks will attach these spendy rapides to. > Hardware store bolts? A worn out harness? Yee haa.
-Brian in SLC > Or…
Last summer, someone went to an awful lot of trouble to install new bolts in Mystery Canyon. Glue ins, two per station, with a groove cut in the rock to seat the base of the ‘ring’ in. Personally, I think they chose exactly “where” a little oddly, but…
They must have read somewhere that the bolt hangers are really sharp, and the expert rigger puts a rapid link on the bolt hanger, THEN goes to webbing. I conjecture that they did not understand this very well, because of course, those forged, Petzl glue-in bolts have a very rounded surface. And the rapid links used ???
Connecting those sophisticated, labor intensive, fabulously strong glue-in bolts to the really strong 1″ tubular webbing were the crudest chinese-made rapid links I have ever seen. Big though.
Tom
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “David Campen” wrote: > I completely disagree. Where the raw material comes from is irrelevant. What matters is the quality control of the finished product. And, I don’t consider the $5.00 cost of a PPE rated, French made, Maillon Rapide to be “much more expensive” than the $2.00 I would pay for a piece of home supply store junk – not when I am on the rope. They also have some nylon rope at these home supply stores, you could probably save a few dollars there too.
Raw material made into bar stock. The bar stock used for production of any end product would be pretty important. If it ain’t up to snuff, that label you get on your stuff is meaningless, its just a hang tag.
What are you really getting for your extra money? You get a rapide stamped with a label. Are they individually load tested? Probably not (unless you buy the PPE ones, I suspect). You get some inspection. What is that inspection? Visual? I can do that. Function of the screw lock? I can do that too. You get any non destructive type inspection, ala x-ray, UT, looking for internal defects? Probably not on finished product. How ’bout hardness testing to verify proper material and/or heat treat? Probably not either.
I just don’t think you get that much for your money. What specifically do you think your getting with this “quality control”? You think they break 10% (or any percent) of the lot of finished product to verify that the load capability of the rapides are “in family”? I’ll bet not. See BD’s 3-sigma stuff on how they rate carabiners for instance.
My bet is they take rod stock, cut to length, smash in threads on one side, swage on a threaded collar on the other, bend it into a the rapide geometry, and, voila, finished product. Probably all done at high rate on a machine. Rod stock needs to be perfect-o.
Bottom line? We need a field trip to France to walk through their process. Holy Haute-Savoie batman. Geez, I seem to recall an international canyon and caving confernce somewhere over there this end of August…hmmm…
Then go to China to watch the “junk” being made (hey, Chinese junks?). My bet is that you wouldn’t notice much difference in their processing, and, not a significant difference in their approach to QC. My bet also is that a guy working in France makes a ton more money than that factory worker in China. Break down where the cost comes from. Raw material. Tooling. Man power. Middle men. Easy to see where the higher price comes from. Plus, product shipped for industrial use versus product shipped to niche outdoor industry. Surprised the rapides aren’t even more expensive.
Actually, on Tom’s site, they’re pretty darn affordable. 10 pack of the 8mm rigs is only 22.50. Probably cheaper than Wallmart. But, still more spendy than the dollar store…(!).
Seriously, though, at that price, why buy ’em from the hardware store?
“Genuine Maillons Rapides from France – actual quality control, good workmanship!”
Ok, take one from Home Depot, made on the pacific rim, and compare it to a french link. Difference in workmanship? I don’t see much of any. They both look, “good” to me. “Actual” versus, what, unknown? I wonder how the “actual workmanship” of the Imlay stuff made on the pacific rim is? Probably wouldn’t be indicative of other items made over there…after all, those are completely separate and special folks making one product and the other. Har har.
Wonder how much I could get a pile of stainless rapides for…
Tom, you got a price on 8mm and 10mm stainless from them Frenchies? Don’t bother asking Wichard…
Anyhoo…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote: > I realize that Brian works in an industry (Rocket Science) where > individual testing is the norm.
Not on finished product, holmes. We’re way into process control here. We do TONS of batch testing, lot testing, etc etc. Bread and butter.
I mean, the only way to show that a rocket works is to light ‘er up. We can’t test that individually.
> Given the choice of running ‘biner’s through the Carabiner Test > Machine or doing batch tests, I’d pick batch tests everytime.
I would too for the process control aspect of keeping defects low, etc. But, not for the ultimate test to verify the product will perform.
> The Carabiner Test Machine almost entirely tests for defects that I can identify by careful visual inspection, whereas the batch test tests for problems that I cannot identify myself except by breaking them on a test frame – with the intelligent conjecture that the batch tests can be extended to the entire batch because the processes are within stringent controls.
Sure, for a carabiner. A bit more complex item than a rapide. And, a bit more tricky to visually inspect.
> Short version: process control is good.
Yeah, its that “almost” that gets me. For any PPE, or, load bearing stuff in industry, there are load tests. Most climbers I know are pretty psyched on the individual testing done on each carabiner to weed out the gross defects. Sure, some you “might” have have “almost” seen. But, I hear that every blue moon they pop one by surprise too. I don’t wanna be the guy that has a biner like that. There’s too many times when its me and the ground, separated by a single carabiner. I can’t afford a gross defect in any carabiner. Seeing that load testing dent is HUGE piece of mind.
If I was using a rapide on my harness, or, a parapente rig, where a single point failure would be catastrophic and the rapide was something I used every time (say a harness anchor, or, to attach ascenders, etc), then I’d think hard about ponying up the cabbage to get a PPE certified rapide (which you don’t sell) because my bet is that they do this individual testing, and, for good reason (not just marketing hype).
What’s funny is what folks will attach these spendy rapides to. Hardware store bolts? A worn out harness? Yee haa.
All in fun. But, if anyone can shed some light on these french links, testing done, process, etc, that’d be super.
Blah blah blah. Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
desertres
Perhaps the rings you got were good. What kind of stainless steel? > Did you check the hardness or the metallurgy? X-Ray it for the > quality of the forging? HOW do you know that the ring is high- > strength stainless steel, rather than low-strength zinc alloy?
Tom >
Quality is not the same as all this QC talk. Quality is measured in expectation. For just for the record those were listed as 316 stainless steel, which probably is from China. They arent as thick as a mans fist, true. But they are used for load critical apps in the marine industry.
One thing about eBay that you pointed out though, is that most of the stuff sold on there has low working loads. Wouldnt want to expect 1/4′ rapides used in a bird cage to support human weight.
scott patterson
Thanks.
David Campen dcampen@earthlink.net> wrote: You can see examples of the desired markings here: http://www.peguet.fr/us/peguet-qualite-securite.html#
I just look to see that it says “Maillon Rapide” and “France”.
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David Campen
You can see examples of the desired markings here: http://www.peguet.fr/us/peguet-qualite-securite.html#
I just look to see that it says “Maillon Rapide” and “France”.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson wrote:
… Or are the “good ones” marked somehow? If not, then I don’t > see how they can ever be used more than once and have the next person > know that they are good. >
scott patterson
“You can buy French-made Maillons Rapides a the Canyoneering USA store. These are manufactured under a quality control regimen appropriate for human-life-safety equipment, and cost only a small amount more than the cheap stuff.”
Sounds like a good idea. I wasn’t aware that Canyoneering USA sold them (I see them on the website). I still have plenty of rap rings (see below), but if buy those RL, I’ll buy them there (as long as you didn’t just peel off the warning label, hee hee).
“That’s kind of the bass-ackwards question. Let me rephrase your question: “these crappy, low-quality-control, roll-the-dice rapid links – how big or strong should they be that even with crappy QC I can feel good about trusting my life to them?”
Thanks; I knew you could answer it. Actually Tom, that’s why I brought it up. I’m actually still using the Omega Pacific rap rings that everyone seems to hate.(Some claim that these rapid links are stronger and cheaper, but every RL I see in the stores (and I know people do use the hardware store ones-I don’t even see them in the climbing stores around here) says “do not support human weight” with them. If you do fairly popular canyons, you always find these RL in them and no one has any idea where they came from. That’s why I brought up the working loads vs breaking strength and wondered about it. It seems strange to me that these come with the warning “do not support human weight” with even the big ones (3000 lb) and they are not rated for breaking strength.
Even so, since you see these RL’s the canyons, you can’t tell where they were purchased from. Even if the webbing is new, judging from what you are saying above, I take it that at every anchor RL’s should always be replaced with new ones (unless those Canyoneering USA ones are marked) even if nice and thick and little used and backed up. Or are the “good ones” marked somehow? If not, then I don’t see how they can ever be used more than once and have the next person know that they are good.
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