This little tale was send to me and is posted here with permission, with the purpose of generating discussion on the “why’s” and the “how to” on solving the dilemma. Comments welcome
Had an interesting thing happen on rappel during my recent canyons trip. So was looking for comments.
I ended up stuck on rope. There was no way the rope was going to pass thru the rappel device. I could not even shove it thru! Further descent was impossible without some type of intervention. It could have been a serious problem. As much as I like to hang on a rope and look around one this was not my idea of fun.
The Particulars of Rappel
Spry Canyon 9/23/07 After a heavy rain.
Rappel , Sorry cannot say which rappel, but was 4th or 5th. Anchor is the pine tree. About 60′ drop. You start walking down the wall on a bias and then end up in a free hanging for about 35-40′
9 mm Imlay rope
Rope doubled thru rappel device
Black Diamond ATC XP rappel device and single Petzl AmD Screwgate Locking biner.
XP was in the high friction. Not my preferred way I usually go double 9 mm on low friction. But I had connected it that way. You would have though this was the safest way.
Rope was wet and very sandy, but not unduly so just what could be expected from the rope at that point in the trip.
I was the last to rappel and the fifth in the group.
I weight 170 lbs
Event The person before me had some trouble moving over the lip and on the walking portion of the rappel. Very sticky rappelling. They completed the rappel without further difficulty.
I went and had much less difficulty on the walking portion of the rappel. In fact that went fairly well. Then transition to the free hang went easily. Then about 20′ from the bottom the rope stuck in the ATC. I had not stopped, it stopped me.
Lifting the running ends of rope parallel the anchored lines and releasing the tension did not free it. Bouncing and pushing on the rope into ATC would not start progress again. I asked my friend to go on belay and I tried to push a loose loop through. No impact (in starting again or me free falling as the belay caught me). I simply was not starting again. I had not even crept down the rope through all this.
Ropes were not crossed or did they look out of line in the ATC/Biner combination. Running ends outside the ATC were separated and hanging loose. The ropes passing thru the rappel device were lying flat, side by side and on the biner. No twists or funny lay. Only thing I notice ropes appeared a little more tightly pressed together in the curve at the end of the biner. Where the round shape naturally forces them together.
Fortunate for me I have been stuck on rope before intentionally and unintentionally. SRT with a shirt, webbing or other thing caught in the rappel or climbing device. Also know how to execute change overs from rappel to climb or vice versa. The novelty for me was I have never been on double rope set for a pull down while doing this. Cannot simple transfer load to just one rope above the jammed device. Then clean the unloaded rappel device like I was use to.
Just needed to solve this new twist in the game. BUT I was concerned.
I had some tools to use. Had webbing foot loops connected to a biner and Tibloc, my emergency device. Also a Prussic loops.
We first made me into a pendulum. Trying to reach a wall and find something to stand up on. Nope I could not get a hold of the wall let alone find a place to step up.
So our next trick to get unstuck. I asked my friend on belay to release one of the ropes and to belay only a single line. I attached the Tibloc to the line not being held by the belayer. Then stood up on the foot loops. This unweighted one line. My attempt to shift the ropes in the ATC. I then sat back down an allowed the ATC and both ropes again carry my weight.
I then tried to rappel again, with a small pop I was again on my way down. Yep I left my Tibloc and foot loop still connected to the rope. I should have really removed the Tibloc before trying to start repelling. I just did not think that I had really done anything useful. But I was on the move and not going to stop! Also knew my buddy on belay had another Tibloc and webbing. So I could repeat the load shifting if needed.
Made it to the bottom, only 15 minutes later than expected . Pulled the ropes and retrieved the Tibloc. Then relaxed!
We did the next rappel and I went low fiction on the ATC. Still a very sticky ride not much different
Then for the next rappel we first washed the rope deliberately rubbing the outside it to clean loose sand. The next rappel went much better. Hey sand in rope is normal it was a sandstone canyon, This is not the culprit in and of itself.
Questions What happened? Action to prevent ahead of time? What should have been done to clear the jam? Yea the above worked. But always looking for a better way more fool proof way. I think I got lucky. Where can I read/learn how to ascend the doubled ropes. Lazy would rather someone tell me, not hang from a rope till I figuring it out or really hurt myself? Do most canyoneers learn how to change over from rappel to ascend while hanging on the rope? Should they have a basic idea how to ( You know my vote now)? Did I experience something that is common, Just I did not know about it? If rare would a posting to the canyon group be of use to others? Would either of you critique before posting?
My preventative action I have solved my problem and prevented it from ever occurring again. I bought a Parana from Tom yesterday.
miq_wrx
Good stuff Koen! Thanks,
-MIKE
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
> Anybody have a picture of a valdotain?
http://www.treebuzz.com/pdf/climbing_hitches.pdf
bruce silliman
No not that one Tom. I think back a couple of raps. Oh, Oh, the one with the small arch just to the left of the anchor, that’s it.
bruce from bryce
To: canyons@yahoogroups.comFrom: ratagonia@gmail.comDate: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:11:12 +0000Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Stuck on a Rope Problem
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, bruce silliman wrote:>
I think this rappel is after the one with the difficult entry off of > the stuck tree and then into the short swimmer. You climb up right > and then walk down to the pine tree (not large at all). It is a > right turn from the rap above then a short step down into a left > turn.> In the narrow slot? Much easier as a downclimb. A fairly easy chimney 6 feet off the water and a small jump at the end keeps one dry.Tom
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beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > In Europe, they’ve started advocating the use of a sewn dyneema sling > instead of the tampered-rope valdo.
As “standard” gear on my climbing harness (and canyon harness I suspect, if I ever did canyons…ha ha), I carry a double length shoulder length sewn dyneema sling and a home made rabbit runner out of Titan cord. Money.
Really like especially how rabbit runners work as a valdotain. Especially the sewn bluewater ones.
Seems like even on short craggin’ routes, I toss on a couple of them Bluewater rabbit runners. Handy critters. Good for extending gear, tying into an anchor (short little power point) and slick as a valdotain if you need to descend a loaded rope, or, instead of a mariner hitch to release a load (ie, escaping a belay). Fast.
-Brian in SLC
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
tad?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
Water course prettier, a better rap, less impact on vegetation, if > a
tad colder.
OK, a lot colder! 😉 Coldest spot in the canyon. We want folks in the course, right? 😉
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, bruce silliman wrote:
> I think this rappel is after the one with the difficult entry off of > the stuck tree and then into the short swimmer. You climb up right > and then walk down to the pine tree (not large at all). It is a > right turn from the rap above then a short step down into a left > turn. >
In the narrow slot? Much easier as a downclimb. A fairly easy chimney 6 feet off the water and a small jump at the end keeps one dry.
Tom
Tom Jones
tad?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
> Spry Canyon 9/23/07 After a heavy rain.
Rappel , Sorry cannot say which rappel, but was 4th or 5th. Anchor is
the pine tree. About 60′ drop. You start walking down the wall on a
bias and then end up in a free hanging for about 35-40′
The big pine tree? After the 95 foot rap with all the rope grooves? If > so, the standard now is to rap the chockstone in the drainage, just as > the water course turns right, before climbing up to the tree. This rap > drops into a swimmer before making a sharp left looking down canyon. > Water course prettier, a better rap, less impact on vegatation, if a > tad colder. > R >
Koen
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “hank moon” wrote:
In the doc linked below, “Valdôtain tresse” is used to refer to the > hitch I know simply as “Valdotain” – and I think the “tresse” is the > version taught by the ACA. >
In Europe, they’ve started advocating the use of a sewn dyneema sling instead of the tampered-rope valdo. It’s kind of risky to teach people how to remove a number of core strands in order to make the rope more supple/have the valdo work better…
The dyneema slings work for some, are a pain to others. Find out which works for you, it’s very personal.
This company makes ready-made valdotains, in rope and with the two eyes nicely sewn. They’ve got them for treeclimbers in 12 mm (too thick for our use) and in 10 mm – which works very good in canyons, I had one during the last few years. I can’t find it on their website but they have/had them:
http://www.millerfallprotection.com/front-page/front-page/miller-fall-protection
hank moon
In the doc linked below, “Valdôtain tresse” is used to refer to the hitch I know simply as “Valdotain” – and I think the “tresse” is the version taught by the ACA.
On 10/16/07, Koen koen@mtb.be> wrote:
Anybody have a picture of a valdotain?
http://www.treebuzz.com/pdf/climbing_hitches.pdf
Koen
Anybody have a picture of a valdotain? >
http://www.treebuzz.com/pdf/climbing_hitches.pdf
Arhart, Roger
Anybody have a picture of a valdotain?
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote: > I went and had much less difficulty on the walking portion of the > rappel. In fact that went fairly well. Then transition to the free > hang went easily. Then about 20′ from the bottom the rope stuck in the > ATC. I had not stopped, it stopped me. > Questions > What happened? > Action to prevent ahead of time? > What should have been done to clear the jam?
My bet is that the wire on your ATC got pinched and in combo with the ropes cinched down. I’ve had this happen numerous times. I “clear” this jam by trying to unweight the ATC, then grabbing (hand around main part of the body of the ATC) and pulling it up to set the max distance the wire allows when on the biner. This seems to sorta clear the wire from the rope, and, usually, with a little shifting around at the start of the rappel (weighting and unweighting and brake handing and releasing) sort of positions the wire and ropes to allow a normal rappel.
I usually “see” this at the start of a rappel. More than normal friction when I initially weight an ATC.
Curious: how far was the transition from walking to free before the ATC locked up?
I’ve sucked the wire from an ATC into the rappel before, to the point where the rubber coating on the wire got worn off. This was common on the older ATC’s with the thinner keeper wires. They increased the thickness of the wire to make it stiffer, methinks, to avoid this problem. But, I still see it from time to time. Usually pretty avoidable if you take the time at the anchor to make sure your ATC is running smoothly.
This keeper wire issue isn’t just an ATC thing. I ruined the rubber coating on a Trango B52 the first time I used it, and, my main gym belay device, a Wild Country variable controller, has bare wire showing through for around 1/3 of its surface area (thick gym ropes). I’ve seen folks punch the wires out and go to a single cord on some of these types of belay devices (which is how the keeper cord worked on the older sticht plates I seem to recall).
Anyhoo…ATC and ATC XP still seem to be the best device for me when it comes to belaying and rappelling.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
gajslk
We were there in June and someone had removed the anchor from the chockstone and a path ran off through the brush downcanyon. Nasty looking, and all to avoid possibly the most fun and pretty rap in the canyon. Maybe someone doesn’t like getting wet. I’m not sure why you would pull the anchor, though, unless you’re really broke and want a used quicklink. We put a new anchor on the chockstone, but didn’t bother to thrash through the brush to remove the (presumed) other anchor.
Gordon
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
> Spry Canyon 9/23/07 After a heavy rain.
Rappel , Sorry cannot say which rappel, but was 4th or 5th. Anchor is
the pine tree. About 60′ drop. You start walking down the wall on a
bias and then end up in a free hanging for about 35-40′
The big pine tree? After the 95 foot rap with all the rope grooves? If > so, the standard now is to rap the chockstone in the drainage, just as > the water course turns right, before climbing up to the tree. This rap > drops into a swimmer before making a sharp left looking down canyon. > Water course prettier, a better rap, less impact on vegatation, if a > tad colder. > R >
bruce silliman
I think this rappel is after the one with the difficult entry off of the stuck tree and then into the short swimmer. You climb up right and then walk down to the pine tree (not large at all). It is a right turn from the rap above then a short step down into a left turn.
Question for the Poster: Did you notice any tilting of the device to the right with the wire device to the left of the biner? If so I assisted the rope in going through by gripping the wire and pushing it to the right. Then brought brake hand up to 300 o’clock position where I was then able to descend.
I posted this on ACA under Technical Canyoneering, Thick Rope Pinching ATC-XP Closed.
Was also in Spry with a little water and lots of sand.
bruce from bryce
To: canyons@yahoogroups.comFrom: adkramoo@aol.comDate: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 22:40:39 +0000Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Stuck on a Rope Problem
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:> Spry Canyon 9/23/07 After a heavy rain. > Rappel , Sorry cannot say which rappel, but was 4th or 5th. Anchor is> the pine tree. About 60′ drop. You start walking down the wall on a> bias and then end up in a free hanging for about 35-40’The big pine tree? After the 95 foot rap with all the rope grooves? Ifso, the standard now is to rap the chockstone in the drainage, just asthe water course turns right, before climbing up to the tree. This rapdrops into a swimmer before making a sharp left looking down canyon.Water course prettier, a better rap, less impact on vegatation, if atad colder.R
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adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
> Spry Canyon 9/23/07 After a heavy rain. > Rappel , Sorry cannot say which rappel, but was 4th or 5th. Anchor is > the pine tree. About 60′ drop. You start walking down the wall on a > bias and then end up in a free hanging for about 35-40′
The big pine tree? After the 95 foot rap with all the rope grooves? If so, the standard now is to rap the chockstone in the drainage, just as the water course turns right, before climbing up to the tree. This rap drops into a swimmer before making a sharp left looking down canyon. Water course prettier, a better rap, less impact on vegatation, if a tad colder. R
Chris Reeves
Thanks for the info. They are already pretty tough to break on a dry rope, especially when I would wrap the prussik 3 times, now I only wrap the foot loops twice and the waist 3 times and it works a lot better but at times is still pretty tough especially when I bounce a little on them but then I just wiggle the knot a little to help loosen it and then slide it up. I’ll bet it’s even tougher to break on a double strand.(??) I need to get into a canyon and practice using them.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
> My only question is if a prusiks will grab onto a wet rope very
> well. I’ve never actually used them in a canyon on a wet rope,
> only when I go out and practice rappelling, etc.
They work better, wet (rope) grabs better than dry.
Koen
> They grab better on wet ropes. This might be better, or make them > more difficult to use, as they are also more difficult to ‘break’.
Tom >
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
My only question is if a prusiks will grab onto a wet rope very
well. I’ve never actually used them in a canyon on a wet rope,
only when I go out and practice rappelling, etc.
They work better, wet (rope) grabs better than dry.
Koen > They grab better on wet ropes. This might be better, or make them more difficult to use, as they are also more difficult to ‘break’.
Tom
Koen
> My only question is if a prusiks will grab onto a wet rope very > well. I’ve never actually used them in a canyon on a wet rope, only > when I go out and practice rappelling, etc.
They work better, wet (rope) grabs better than dry.
Koen
Koen
Questions > What happened?
You got stuck on rope, probably due to a dirty and certain type of rope, maybe a slightly worn ATC and/or the shape of the biner .
> Action to prevent ahead of time?
You already took it by buying something else than an ATC.
> What should have been done to clear the jam? Yea the above worked. > But always looking for a better way more fool proof way. I think I > got lucky. > Where can I read/learn how to ascend the doubled ropes. Lazy would > rather someone tell me, not hang from a rope till I figuring it out or > really hurt myself?
You had everything with you to ascend double ropes, prussiks work just fine. Although I prefer a valdotain: when you’re done ascending you just grab the top and take it down with you. It’ll even act as a “benign” self belay (meaning that you can get unstuck without having to unweigh it). If you really want to switch from ascending to descending and back fast, you should have bought a fig 8 instead of a Pirana. That works too but takes more of an effort.
> Do most canyoneers learn how to change over from rappel to ascend > while hanging on the rope? Should they have a basic idea how to ( You > know my vote now)?
They should !
> Did I experience something that is common, Just I did not know about it? > If rare would a posting to the canyon group be of use to others? Would > either of you critique before posting?
No, it’s not very common that you just “stop” without anything getting stuck in your descender. But I think you handled it great. But practice, you need to get those times (and yourself) down. You won’t have 15 minutes when you’re under a waterfall.
If you’re really in a hurry, desperate and without any gear, try the following: after getting stuck clip a carabiner on a self belay line or quick draw if you haven’t a short self belay line (you should have two !!). Make a munter hitch on that carabiner, using the rope below your stuck descender. Lift a leg and wrap the rope a few times around your foot. Stand up in that loop and unclip your stuck descender from your harness. All while holding the loose rope end (that went around your foot) in your upper hand.
If all goes well you should clip yourself/your harness into the munter/carabiner now. If you run out of steam you can lower yourself on the selfbelay, which is ofcourse clipped into the carabiner with the munter. That’ll turn you upside down, but hey, who cares at this point . A few awkward moments to loosen the loops around your foot and down you go, leaving behind the stuck descender.
Don’t try this at home, try this over real deep water !
Koen
Chris Reeves
I am pretty new to canyoneering, therefore don’t have a whole lot of experience and information on getting out of situations such as being stuck on a rope, but one thing I do when I canyoneer is carry my purcell’s prusiks in my pocket and I am always practicing using them. Just this weekend I rappelled down about a 80 ft. cliff and then tied my purcells onto my rope and climbed right back up the cliff. That’s the first thing that comes to mind, and would come to mind if I were stuck on a rope. They can be used to ascend and descend double and single strand ropes. You can easily set them up while hanging on your rope. My only question is if a prusiks will grab onto a wet rope very well. I’ve never actually used them in a canyon on a wet rope, only when I go out and practice rappelling, etc.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
This little tale was send to me and is posted here with permission, > with the purpose of generating discussion on the “why’s” and the “how > to” on solving the dilemma. Comments welcome
Had an interesting thing happen on rappel during my recent canyons > trip. So was looking for comments.
> I ended up stuck on rope. There was no way the rope was going to pass > thru the rappel device. I could not even shove it thru! Further > descent was impossible without some type of intervention. It could > have been a serious problem. As much as I like to hang on a rope and > look around one this was not my idea of fun.
> The Particulars of Rappel
Spry Canyon 9/23/07 After a heavy rain.
Rappel , Sorry cannot say which rappel, but was 4th or 5th. Anchor is > the pine tree. About 60′ drop. You start walking down the wall on a > bias and then end up in a free hanging for about 35-40′
9 mm Imlay rope
Rope doubled thru rappel device
Black Diamond ATC XP rappel device and single Petzl AmD Screwgate > Locking biner.
XP was in the high friction. Not my preferred way I usually go double > 9 mm on low friction. But I had connected it that way. You would > have though this was the safest way.
Rope was wet and very sandy, but not unduly so just what could be > expected from the rope at that point in the trip.
I was the last to rappel and the fifth in the group.
I weight 170 lbs
Event > The person before me had some trouble moving over the lip and on the > walking portion of the rappel. Very sticky rappelling. They > completed the rappel without further difficulty.
I went and had much less difficulty on the walking portion of the > rappel. In fact that went fairly well. Then transition to the free > hang went easily. Then about 20′ from the bottom the rope stuck in the > ATC. I had not stopped, it stopped me.
Lifting the running ends of rope parallel the anchored lines and > releasing the tension did not free it. Bouncing and pushing on the > rope into ATC would not start progress again. I asked my friend to go > on belay and I tried to push a loose loop through. No impact (in > starting again or me free falling as the belay caught me). I simply > was not starting again. I had not even crept down the rope through all > this.
Ropes were not crossed or did they look out of line in the ATC/Biner > combination. Running ends outside the ATC were separated and hanging > loose. The ropes passing thru the rappel device were lying flat, side > by side and on the biner. No twists or funny lay. Only thing I notice > ropes appeared a little more tightly pressed together in the curve at > the end of the biner. Where the round shape naturally forces them > together.
Fortunate for me I have been stuck on rope before intentionally and > unintentionally. SRT with a shirt, webbing or other thing caught in > the rappel or climbing device. Also know how to execute change overs > from rappel to climb or vice versa. The novelty for me was I have > never been on double rope set for a pull down while doing this. > Cannot simple transfer load to just one rope above the jammed device. > Then clean the unloaded rappel device like I was use to.
Just needed to solve this new twist in the game. BUT I was concerned.
I had some tools to use. Had webbing foot loops connected to a > biner and Tibloc, my emergency device. Also a Prussic loops.
We first made me into a pendulum. Trying to reach a wall and > find something to stand up on. Nope I could not get a hold of the > wall let alone find a place to step up.
So our next trick to get unstuck. I asked my friend on belay to > release one of the ropes and to belay only a single line. I attached > the Tibloc to the line not being held by the belayer. Then stood up on > the foot loops. This unweighted one line. My attempt to shift the > ropes in the ATC. I then sat back down an allowed the ATC and both > ropes again carry my weight.
I then tried to rappel again, with a small pop I was again on my way > down. Yep I left my Tibloc and foot loop still connected to the > rope. I should have really removed the Tibloc before trying to start > repelling. I just did not think that I had really done anything > useful. But I was on the move and not going to stop! Also knew my > buddy on belay had another Tibloc and webbing. So I could repeat the > load shifting if needed.
Made it to the bottom, only 15 minutes later than expected . Pulled > the ropes and retrieved the Tibloc. Then relaxed!
We did the next rappel and I went low fiction on the ATC. Still a > very sticky ride not much different
Then for the next rappel we first washed the rope deliberately rubbing > the outside it to clean loose sand. The next rappel went much better. > Hey sand in rope is normal it was a sandstone canyon, This is not the > culprit in and of itself.
Questions > What happened? > Action to prevent ahead of time? > What should have been done to clear the jam? Yea the above worked. > But always looking for a better way more fool proof way. I think I > got lucky. > Where can I read/learn how to ascend the doubled ropes. Lazy would > rather someone tell me, not hang from a rope till I figuring it out or > really hurt myself? > Do most canyoneers learn how to change over from rappel to ascend > while hanging on the rope? Should they have a basic idea how to ( You > know my vote now)? > Did I experience something that is common, Just I did not know about it? > If rare would a posting to the canyon group be of use to others? Would > either of you critique before posting?
My preventative action > I have solved my problem and prevented it from ever occurring again. > I bought a Parana from Tom yesterday. >