— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “davewyo1”
Those crack do like kinda good. I’d probably opt for leaving a regular stopper.
> Why do you need a “natural anchor” Brian? Isn’t it good enough that > the rock pile doesn’t alter the canyon permanently?
I don’t “need” a “natural anchor” myself. And, I’m under no illusions that contructing a big pile of rocks is “natural”. The rock pile does alter the canyon permanently, but, probably not as noticeable because its “natural looking”. A bolted anchor would limit the impact to a finite thing. Constantly building and rebuilding these constructed non-natural anchors would have a much higher impact in the long run, IMHO.
> Why dismantle the anchor after use?
Because it fits into the “natural anchor” game if part of the reason for using these natural material anchors is to maintain some type of more “natural” environment, then it makes sense to return the canyon to a more natural looking state following the descent.
> Do you remove the bolts you place after putting up a route?
Not typically. Impact is visually limited. Viewshed impact is limited. For high traffic type stuff its a better solution, in some cases, I think.
I’m both struggling to understand the “ethic” with these large unnatural and heavy handed constructed anchors, and, trying to see if there’s some common sense with regard to fixed anchors. Some folks don’t like their canyons, “all bolted up”. I’m not in that camp. I just don’t see that impact as offensive or intrusive to my canyon experience. Big piles of rocks, folks digging in potholes, miles of sling material draped all over the place, that is offensive. When simpler and less impact solutions are available. And, if permanence is the issue, then, remove the rock stacks…
> As you know, placing bolts does not > eliminate the need to evaluate the anchors.
Very true.
-Brian in SLC
evanojenkins
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
> “it doesn’t have to be fun, to be fun”.
One of my favourite outdoors quotes! It’s from Mark Twight
That’s one source. Many folks attribute it to Barry Blanchar, who I > heard say it with regard to a speech and show he presented at Snowbird > in early 2002. Was in a story he penned for the Alpine Club of Canada > journal from the prior year, methinks. He attributes the quote to a > friend of his (I can’t recall the name).
Twight’s book came out in 1999, so, hard to say who coined the phrase > first, although I’d tend to believe Blanchard’s version that it came > from a friend of his…
Hey, Evan, you going to France end of August??
-Brian in SLC >
Good knowledge Brian! I’ll re-attribute it!
I think I will go to France! Just need to confirm some details, but very likely!
Evan
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Brando” wrote:
Dont forget the webbing color is not environmentally ‘friendly’.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
> Tom
Thanks to all who played. Some good discussion, I think.
My version:
What’s wrong with this anchor?
Nothing, really. Although…
1. When in an area other than my home area, I consider it polite to go with the local flow, assuming it is safe. So there are some points of style, such that they do things differently than I would in my home territory, but they are minor points of style, rather than “safety issues”.
2. Lots of boulders and rocks available for building cairns in DV. The boulders are usually denser and more solid than the sandstone chunks we might use in Utah. They build BIG cairns in DV. In Utah, with less material available, we tend to build them quite a bit smaller – kind of “just big enough to be convincing”. My aesthetic is that I like smaller cairns that are less of “taint” on the natural landscape. In DV, they build BIG cairns. Maybe its home- court prejudice; but I found the DV canyons kinda “industrial” – lots of big piles of rubble – and of a BIG scale, thus the big cairns do not really seem as out of place as they would in a Utah canyon. My estimate is that the cairn in question is good for about 3000 lbs.
3. They don’t extend their anchors over the edge, there in DV. And it works! On most rappels, the rock going over the edge is very, very smooth and very low friction, therefore extending the rappel sling over the edge is not necessary. The rock is also very, very hard such that pulling the rope does not create rope grooves.
In Styx, I thought this was foolish and extended some of the anchors over the edge. I stopped doing this when I mis-judged the length and extended one 5 feet over the edge, and had to do a hand-over- hand start down that five feet. My apologies to the DV Canyoneers – the anchors were find not-extended.
(Warning to DV-only Canyoneers: not extending the anchor ONLY works when the rock is really smooth).
4. If you are not going to extend the anchor to the edge, it is probably better to have the sling be short. A long strand of sling “in the air” tends to twist easily, and can cooperate with twists in the rope to make the rope hard to pull. A short stub of a sling minimizes this problem. (We had no problem with pulls in DV, so this may be more of a theoretical problem, rather than a “real” problem).
5. The knot-block way of tying off the pin probably worked, but I retied it with a more-conventional knot. Since my evaluation of the cairn is that it is REALLY STOUT, the backup pin is likely unnecessary. But if it’s there (from an early ascent?) we might as well tie it into the system.
6. Color of the sling? yes, I like muted, naturalistic colors as much as possible. Some DV anchors were set up with double lines of 1″ tubular, and I generally removed the brighter color of the two when these were in place.
7. High-volume canyons??? High volume in DV means maybe 5-10 descents a year, I think. The DV season is pretty short.
8. Erosion / Flood Rates: it is really, really, really dry there. Which is why you can have a massive, steep, loose, rubbly escarpment, and not much of it is moving down to the canyon floor below (which is why the bottom of that canyon floor is at -280 feet in elevation). I suspect the canyons flow only once every 5-20 years. So flow in the canyons can be considered a rare event. Which means the anchors are likely to be unaffected for 5-20 years at a time.
9. Back from the edge: in DV, many of the anchors were quite a ways back from the edge. Given the very low friction going over the edge, this is not a problem there. As stated above, it would be nice if the slings were shorter.
10. did I miss anything???
Tom
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “evanojenkins” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
Anyhoo, its all in the name of recreation and fun. And, to quote
someone, “it doesn’t have to be fun, to be fun”.
One of my favourite outdoors quotes! It’s from Mark Twight – the final > words in his book ‘Extreme Alpinism: Climbing Light, High, and Fast’
That’s one source. Many folks attribute it to Barry Blanchar, who I heard say it with regard to a speech and show he presented at Snowbird in early 2002. Was in a story he penned for the Alpine Club of Canada journal from the prior year, methinks. He attributes the quote to a friend of his (I can’t recall the name).
Twight’s book came out in 1999, so, hard to say who coined the phrase first, although I’d tend to believe Blanchard’s version that it came from a friend of his…
Hey, Evan, you going to France end of August??
-Brian in SLC
evanojenkins
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
Anyhoo, its all in the name of recreation and fun. And, to quote > someone, “it doesn’t have to be fun, to be fun”.
One of my favourite outdoors quotes! It’s from Mark Twight – the final words in his book ‘Extreme Alpinism: Climbing Light, High, and Fast’
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
Indeed. 8 folks. Division of labor. By the time the anchor was > built,
often just 5 minutes, half the group was down, heading for the > next drop
So, wait a second. Now you have 20 man minutes at every drop.
Me not being clear again…big surprise. 😉 Get to the drop. That evaluation of options thing happens right away. Say its a rap. 2 guys go to shifting some rocks. One goes to measuring out and cutting webbing. 2 take ropes out and lower them and set themselves up as a meat anchor. 3 remaining folks, hopefully with ropes and webbing, rap off of their partners. By the time 2 or 3 are down, the building crew is available to rap off of people. One person threads one of the ropes thru the real anchor. Party continues to rap off of two stations, one meat, one anchor, until the meat anchor guy is left. He drops the rope, hopefully not on velcro bush and raps the anchor. Total time? I think most went under 10 minutes….by which time the advance crew is likely setting the next anchor and folks are starting down off meat there. We had 6 ropes on one exploration and 7 ropes the other time, I think.
I would enjoy listening to either you or Koen discuss the how’s,
when’s etc.
http://www.vercors2008.eu
Thanx
> Are you coming to France end of August? There ya go.
Alas, my boy and I for 12 days in the Sierra Nevada for a dose of moderate knife edge ridges
Never seen an easier spot. It was nice to watch the evaluators look
for other options before the rock piles. As often the case, > creative
genius can get applied
And, that is the game, eh? Probably a significant part of it.
Its a part. Every day has its charms and there are lots of charms to choose from. A group of 8 in an unknown canyon, with 5,000 feet to drop and 12 hours of daylight to do it in. In this case, working out the ideas and then applying them efficiently, with essentially 3 different groups, who haven’t worked together, comprising the group. Very satisfying. It was fun watching the different groups pick up on the good ideas of the others too. Very fun. Great way toi make new friends.
> Anyhoo, its all in the name of recreation and fun. And, to quote > someone, “it doesn’t have to be fun, to be fun”.
LOL! Spot on! R
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
Love to hear it. Roger?? Out skiing?
Probably. Quite good right now. I seem to recall he posted it > here, or, its in the files somewhere?
Gist of it seems to explore why evidence of someone else’s passing, > in his “special” places, really bothered him. Er something. > On Beauty and Adventure by Roger Arhart
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/group/beauty.htm
Tom
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote: > Love to hear it. Roger?? Out skiing?
Probably. Quite good right now. I seem to recall he posted it here, or, its in the files somewhere?
Gist of it seems to explore why evidence of someone else’s passing, in his “special” places, really bothered him. Er something.
> Indeed. 8 folks. Division of labor. By the time the anchor was built, > often just 5 minutes, half the group was down, heading for the next drop
So, wait a second. Now you have 20 man minutes at every drop.
> I would enjoy listening to either you or Koen discuss the how’s, > when’s etc.
http://www.vercors2008.eu
Are you coming to France end of August? There ya go.
Its funny. I see the end product of a ton of bolting jobs out there. Its not a skill done easily by some, to be sure. Some super experienced folks can really FUBAR it. And, its also something, since bolts are pretty permanent (argueable, since a number of them could be removed if need be), that is easy to be critical of.
> Never seen an easier spot. It was nice to watch the evaluators look > for other options before the rock piles. As often the case, creative > genius can get applied
And, that is the game, eh? Probably a significant part of it.
Anyhoo, its all in the name of recreation and fun. And, to quote someone, “it doesn’t have to be fun, to be fun”.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
Brando
Dont forget the webbing color is not environmentally ‘friendly’.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
> Tom >
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
> Same with cairns in more remote area that don’t have > established/maintained trails. Seem to recall a Roger Arhart thesis > of sorts on these cairns…
Love to hear it. Roger?? Out skiing?
> On our two explorations, we build over 30 anchors.
That’s a whole lot o’ buildin’ goin’ on. Busy beavers.
Indeed. 8 folks. Division of labor. By the time the anchor was built, often just 5 minutes, half the group was down, heading for the next drop
> Depends on a lot of factors. Rock type, stance available, geometry > and placement, to be sure. I’ve spent over an hour pondering how to > place a single bolt anchor, just in hopes to “get it right”. Some > folks don’t, and, its hard to “get it right”, to be sure.
I would enjoy listening to either you or Koen discuss the how’s, when’s etc.
One of the unique characteristics of the area is the pace of > erosion.
These are canyons. It happens. It happens from floods.
Seems like really erosive. Tough anchoring.
Never seen an easier spot. It was nice to watch the evaluators look for other options before the rock piles. As often the case, creative genius can get applied
> But, most of these “canyons”, are just wide open gorges, eh? I > mean, you could just walk around these “stunt drops”. Hardly > canyoneering or canyoning in the classic sense.
Can’t really say most yet. Done 9 days. 7 Distinct canyons. Seems that there are 100’s of possibilities, most with horrific logistics. What fertile ground for the motivated. Of the ones we did, some were open gorges. They had big drops and lots of poor rock. Of the other type, several had long entrenched sections, covering most of the canyons. True canyons in every way.
Bypasses were often a topic of discussion. Here is how that went. About 1/3 of the raps had ways around them. 2/3 did not. Of the 1/3 that offered bypass alternatives, about 2/3 of them were awful and dangerous gullies. The other 1/3 were safe and these were always taken. That 1 in 9 drops? So we would come to a drop and this is the process. Is it a rap? Can a member or all of us downclimb it safely in the water course? If not, we check for a bypass. If there is one, is it safe? If so, we go around. If not and it is climbable, for our guns, then we rap off of meat and spot the last guy. If all this isn’t applicable, anchor is built and then all rap Ram
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote: > I think what happens is what Dave suggested. People add rocks as time > moves on.
Same with cairns in more remote area that don’t have established/maintained trails. Seem to recall a Roger Arhart thesis of sorts on these cairns…
> On our two explorations, we build over 30 anchors.
That’s a whole lot o’ buildin’ goin’ on. Busy beavers.
> Assembly of a 5 rock cairn that is safe takes a group of 2, 3 minutes maybe? distinct rock types? Half of them layers total crap? I hear you are > the fasted bolt gun in the west. Still, how long would that take you?
Depends on a lot of factors. Rock type, stance available, geometry and placement, to be sure. I’ve spent over an hour pondering how to place a single bolt anchor, just in hopes to “get it right”. Some folks don’t, and, its hard to “get it right”, to be sure.
And, really, I’m pretty ok at figuring out these non-natural type anchors and if I’m exploring, will usually opt for the fastest method. Especially if I’d have to hand drill.
> One of the unique characteristics of the area is the pace of erosion. > These are canyons. It happens. It happens from floods.
Seems like really erosive. Tough anchoring.
But, most of these “canyons”, are just wide open gorges, eh? I mean, you could just walk around these “stunt drops”. Hardly canyoneering or canyoning in the classic sense.
Ha ha.
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
davewyo1
Okay, I see what you’re getting at. If we build these rock piles then we are doing so because of the impacts to the canyon, the canyon experience and the prevailing ethic of the area. I would say that one of my biggest objections to hammering in a bolt is that few folks are experienced in the proper placement of bolts. I stay away from it myself because I don’t want to make a somewhat permanent and impactful decision which can’t be easily reversed. Most skill in bolt placement comes from rock climbing at this time and is carried over to the canyoneering venue I would think. Extensive rock climbing experience isn’t usually considered a requirement and is probably not the norm in canyoning. So, in general I would agree that bolts may be safer than constructed anchors and in many instances could be visually less offensive. Constructed anchors that are well back from a drop obviously leave more trash and probably cause more cases of rope pull and rope groove issues. It’s a very good point that rebuilding is an impact. No question, digging up new rocks for reconstruction after floods is going to hurt all the critters that are living there. At the same time, the average canyoneer (or rock climber) isn’t qualified to perform, nor delighted to begin, the task of bolting. I understand that if bolting were the norm, then the job would only have to be done correctly every once in a while rather than after every flood. I doubt that the job will get done right the first time and, of course, we can pick apart a perfectly serviceable anchor and very often develop something to find fault with. It appears that bolts in canyons last for less time than on rock faces in the crags, so the first two bolt’s impact are a finite thing, and then the next two… Personally, I react to the presence of bolts, deadmen , knot chocks, and all manner of possible anchoring systems with the same level of outrage and then go ahead and use it. The amount of webbing doesn’t amp up that reaction as long as it’s necessary webbing. As for cairns in the outback; I discourage the building of them and often kick over the ones that I think of as overkill. On the other hand, a well-placed rock pile, on a trail or in a canyon, can sometimes be the most welcomed sight of the day. Also it’s a good way to keep people from busting all the crust in the desert. I have made some effort to learn the correct way to put in a bolt by hand, so that when I do carry an emergency bolt kit to the canyons, I will have a decent chance of putting in something that I could hang my life on. I would even go so far as to replace an existing bolt that was no longer usable. Otherwise, I use the natural materials in the canyon to get the job done. I would also point out that placing bolts with a hand drill is considerably more difficult and time consuming than using a drill..It’s much quicker to loop some webbing and be done with it. I would guess that most of us would follow any local ethics we were aware of, so it’s not necessary to take up that point beyond discussing who decided upon that ethic and if that decision was a good one. I fall on the side that if the ethic tends to preserve the area and eliminates conflicts and arguments, then it was a good decision. Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “davewyo1” wrote:
How about eliminating the cairn and using a knot-chock in one of > those
cracks on the right side(LDC)?
Those crack do like kinda good. I’d probably opt for leaving a > regular stopper.
> Why do you need a “natural anchor” Brian? Isn’t it good enough that
the rock pile doesn’t alter the canyon permanently?
I don’t “need” a “natural anchor” myself. And, I’m under no > illusions that contructing a big pile of rocks is “natural”. The > rock pile does alter the canyon permanently, but, probably not as > noticeable because its “natural looking”. A bolted anchor would > limit the impact to a finite thing. Constantly building and > rebuilding these constructed non-natural anchors would have a much > higher impact in the long run, IMHO.
> Why dismantle the anchor after use?
Because it fits into the “natural anchor” game if part of the reason > for using these natural material anchors is to maintain some type of > more “natural” environment, then it makes sense to return the canyon > to a more natural looking state following the descent.
> Do you remove the bolts you place after putting up a route?
Not typically. Impact is visually limited. Viewshed impact is > limited. For high traffic type stuff its a better solution, in some > cases, I think.
I’m both struggling to understand the “ethic” with these large > unnatural and heavy handed constructed anchors, and, trying to see > if there’s some common sense with regard to fixed anchors. Some > folks don’t like their canyons, “all bolted up”. I’m not in that > camp. I just don’t see that impact as offensive or intrusive to my > canyon experience. Big piles of rocks, folks digging in potholes, > miles of sling material draped all over the place, that is > offensive. When simpler and less impact solutions are available. > And, if permanence is the issue, then, remove the rock stacks…
> As you know, placing bolts does not
eliminate the need to evaluate the anchors.
Very true.
-Brian in SLC >
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “davewyo1” wrote:
How about eliminating the cairn and using a knot-chock in one of > those
cracks on the right side(LDC)?
Those crack do like kinda good. I’d probably opt for leaving a > regular stopper.
We did encounter some hexes in Hades
> I don’t “need” a “natural anchor” myself. And, I’m under no > illusions that contructing a big pile of rocks is “natural”.
I think what happens is what Dave suggested. People add rocks as time moves on. On our two explorations, we build over 30 anchors. None of them looked like that one in Styx. Its not necessary to create these behemoths and indeed it makes it more difficult to inspect
The > rock pile does alter the canyon permanently, but, probably not as > noticeable because its “natural looking”. A bolted anchor would > limit the impact to a finite thing.
Using the place and our explorations as an example. 2 canyons. 30 anchors….How many were horns, slung boulders, knot chocks and the like? Say 15. Leaves 15 cairns. There was no digging in potholes, no classic deadmen. No digging at all in fact. All drops have walking areas above and below them. Big walking areas. There are tons of large rocks around. No scavenging necessary. These flat areas aren’t exactly flat. They are those 20 foot wide gravel conveyor belts of debris, large and small at about 20 degree angles. Assembly of a 5 rock cairn that is safe takes a group of 2, 3 minutes maybe? Total distance of stuff moved? 30 feet total adding up the distance from each of the 5 rocks? Often less. The rocks even the big ones move easily over the ball bearings of pebbles and the like to an exposed semi constriction. Cake, I tell ya, cake. Alternative? 15 bolts? In 15 different and distinct rock types? Half of them layers total crap? I hear you are the fasted bolt gun in the west. Still, how long would that take you? No hilti jokes allowed. ;-)Some of that areas up high in the canyons. Thank goodness for the solid rocks that came down the conveyor belt to those spots. Many of these walls….sugar in harder! These arguments you make have merit and I believe they have application in certain environs. Maybe many. Maybe most. Here? Probably not. I’ll expound further with your points below
Constantly building and > rebuilding these constructed non-natural anchors would have a much > higher impact in the long run, IMHO.
One of the unique characteristics of the area is the pace of erosion. These are canyons. It happens. It happens from floods. It happens at a pace that seems 1/10 (Number out of my butt) or less of what I have seen in Utah. These gravel bars. Some of them look like they see motion and likely just a little, in the time frames of years, perhaps many years. Still the thing is a conveyor belt at a 20 degree angle. So big rocks, little rocks, pebbles are all on the belt for the ride, covering eons of time, top to bottom. My guess is these cairns will last decades between events and even when the event occurs the impact would never be less than in this place. Say the big one comes. Everything moves down the belt. Might be some buried webbing somewhere. No other evidence. This is what these drainages do. Or so it seems to my eye. Do these unique factors answer all of your arguments and concerns philosophically? No. Do those arguments have way less weight in this specific venue. Probably so. Certainly less than anywhere else I’ve been. Good discussion though, especially applied to other venues. R