How about eliminating the cairn and using a knot-chock in one of those cracks on the right side(LDC)? That would shorten up the webbing considerably. Why do you need a “natural anchor” Brian? Isn’t it good enough that the rock pile doesn’t alter the canyon permanently? Sure the ecology will be impacted if you build rock piles, but the ecology is altered as soon as you place a foot in the canyon. Why dismantle the anchor after use? Do you remove the bolts you place after putting up a route? Not many folks today are espousing complete “no trace” canyoneering. At least there’s very little trace of anyone using those techniques;-) Unfortunately “ghosting” isn’t a word I’ve heard applied to canyoneering very much these days. Also, it’s fun and necessary to ponder these rock piles and all other anchors when descending canyons. As you know, placing bolts does not eliminate the need to evaluate the anchors. Dave PS In these rock-pile instances, you mark your turf by adding another unnecessary rock to the pile;-)
> Nothin’ that a couple of well placed bolts wouldn’t cure…
I like how they didn’t resort to digging into and disturbing the > pothole ecology, although, a big stack of rocks like that is hardly > a “natural anchor”.
Next flash flood that stack of rocks will alter the watercourse?
Anytime you have to construct a large anchor like that, and leave > that much webbing, one has to wonder about the impact of that versus > a much better and longer term community anchor. Especially in a > canyon that gets that much action.
Leave no trace would require folks fixing ropes then jugging back up > and dismantling these large unnatural piles of rocks with webbing > sticking out of them. I think if you’re really into the “natural” > type descent thing, and anchor building like this is part of the > game, then maybe deconstructing them at the end of the gig is more > appropriate than leaving them for other parties to ponder.
Nothin’ that a couple of well placed bolts wouldn’t cure…
I like how they didn’t resort to digging into and disturbing the pothole ecology, although, a big stack of rocks like that is hardly a “natural anchor”.
Next flash flood that stack of rocks will alter the watercourse?
Anytime you have to construct a large anchor like that, and leave that much webbing, one has to wonder about the impact of that versus a much better and longer term community anchor. Especially in a canyon that gets that much action.
Leave no trace would require folks fixing ropes then jugging back up and dismantling these large unnatural piles of rocks with webbing sticking out of them. I think if you’re really into the “natural” type descent thing, and anchor building like this is part of the game, then maybe deconstructing them at the end of the gig is more appropriate than leaving them for other parties to ponder.
Hey this is my first post here (active @ bogley as trackrunner ACA as
mountain man).
Welcome to the Forum.
Have you been down Little Santa Anita Canyon in SoCal recently? I ask > because I found a baseball cap style hat in there a couple of weeks > ago, and the words, “Mountain Man”, are embroidered in red on the > front. It’s good quality and specifically sized as well.
Was wodering if it’s yours. > Never have been to those canyons, hope to hit someday. So no it is not my cap. The mountain man username is one that I don’t like. I went back to an older user name, trackrunner, instead.
Okay, I will show some inexperience here and say that we left this anchor just as it was in the group ahead of Tom & co… we left it for two reasons, we knew the rock was very smooth and had experienced really good pull… and we were flat out fascinated by the geometry of this thing!
Now that I’m posting this though, and going there this weekend to “view the wildflowers at peak” please do let me know if we need to change this anchor for safety or should we just leave it for future puzzlemasters! LOL! I think we have the same photos somewhere.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson wrote: > If extending it to the lip would make it visible to tourist below, it probably shouldn’t be extended all the way to the lip, but could be closer.
It was maybe rappel 8 of 14. Very much out of view of those in the land of the living.
I assume rope burns aren’t a concern on polished limestone, but having it closer would make an easier pull.
I did over 130 raps in the 9 days. Man, the hips were sore by weeks end and the alpine bod finally caught up with me comfort wise…..I did not see one sign of a rope pull damaging any spot. Not one. The polished rock is durable and makes the pull easy. Only a half dozen took any effort at all. Good call on that. Also their was often easy horizontal walking available from each of the drops so getting better angles were super easy. The velcro, though…ah, that’s another story R
Quite frankly, I don’t really see much wrong with the anchor. Sure, the piton looks a bit funky, but the cairn looks pretty bomb proof. Whether it’s close to the edge or not doesn’t seem that big of an issue to me. Perhaps the one criticism that I would agree with others on is that the sling doesn’t go over the lip; I am always paranoid about sticking ropes. On the other hand, the photo that shows the anchor weighted also shows the rope pulled up off of the ground, which to me indicates that the pull probably isn’t too bad.
If extending it to the lip would make it visible to tourist below, it probably shouldn’t be extended all the way to the lip, but could be closer. I assume rope burns aren’t a concern on polished limestone, but having it closer would make an easier pull.
Anyway, the attachment to the piton doesn’t look very good.
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “trackrunner83” wrote: > Hey this is my first post here (active @ bogley as trackrunner ACA as > mountain man).
Welcome to the Forum.
Have you been down Little Santa Anita Canyon in SoCal recently? I ask because I found a baseball cap style hat in there a couple of weeks ago, and the words, “Mountain Man”, are embroidered in red on the front. It’s good quality and specifically sized as well.
Hey this is my first post here (active @ bogley as trackrunner ACA as mountain man). It has to be the green webbing, not natural enough. Stick with natural colors, tan. Also might help to build the dead man like everyone else said.
Looks to me like others have found the deficiencies I would point out.
1) deadman would be much better lower 2) webbing not extended to lip 3) piton knot looks funky in picture – but may be fine
I do not consider the lazy dog in the background to be slacking. Hell, if that anchor can’t hold Ryan then Ram can’t either and why lose two at a time? Might as well save him for the next time you need to test something.
When you post, please change the Subject > appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. > You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = > Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner > and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical > Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = > Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the > abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such > as:
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I actually really like the piton settup, there is a huge amount of friction on the webbing reducing the load on the piton a lot. I think Tom put the piton pic in the mix to throw our eyes off. The knot would be better than any knot chaulk.(well some) If there is an overhand at the end of the webbing(rapide attachment) it would be redundant. o.k. really done now. —– Original Message —– From: davewyo1 To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:20 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
Direction of pull on the piton is in line with the forces that would be applied during a shock. Nasty knot attachment to piton. Not enough tail. Why not add a rapid and a new knot like a water knot etc.? Looks like your anchor isn’t extended to the lip for easy rope pull. Looks like there is some tan webbing in there. I would wonder what its function is. Keeping the deadman out of the dirt makes it more inspectable but it will certainly be swept away at the next flood(and maybe pull out the piton). Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote: > > new anchor quiz, for those who want to play: > > http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/ > > Tom >
————
Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam: Spam Not spam Forget previous vote
One last thing and I’ll be done—- If you put the deadman in the hole, the existing webbing would almost reach the lip(length may be deceiving) Would be a little concerned about rope pull. —– Original Message —– From: Kurt To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
If really questionable Ram could add a meat backup for those ahead and then be LAMAR. But the anchor looks like it could easily be made bomber by moving the deadman into the hole. Can’t see the webbing well enough but first glance seems o.k. —– Original Message —– From: Tom Jones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:49 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
Direction of pull on the piton is in line with the forces that would be applied during a shock. Nasty knot attachment to piton. Not enough tail. Why not add a rapid and a new knot like a water knot etc.? Looks like your anchor isn’t extended to the lip for easy rope pull. Looks like there is some tan webbing in there. I would wonder what its function is. Keeping the deadman out of the dirt makes it more inspectable but it will certainly be swept away at the next flood(and maybe pull out the piton). Dave
If really questionable Ram could add a meat backup for those ahead and then be LAMAR. But the anchor looks like it could easily be made bomber by moving the deadman into the hole. Can’t see the webbing well enough but first glance seems o.k. —– Original Message —– From: Tom Jones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:49 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
You knew I’d play, > I would clean out the pothole ahead of the deadman and build the deadman in it. Then the weight of the deadman would have to overcome gravity to come out of said hole. > Where it sits incorporates some friction but not as good as in the hole.(still studying but thought this was a timed event) > —– Original Message —– > From: Tom Jones > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:49 PM > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
You knew I’d play, I would clean out the pothole ahead of the deadman and build the deadman in it. Then the weight of the deadman would have to overcome gravity to come out of said hole. Where it sits incorporates some friction but not as good as in the hole.(still studying but thought this was a timed event) —– Original Message —– From: Tom Jones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:49 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
davewyo1
How about eliminating the cairn and using a knot-chock in one of those cracks on the right side(LDC)? That would shorten up the webbing considerably. Why do you need a “natural anchor” Brian? Isn’t it good enough that the rock pile doesn’t alter the canyon permanently? Sure the ecology will be impacted if you build rock piles, but the ecology is altered as soon as you place a foot in the canyon. Why dismantle the anchor after use? Do you remove the bolts you place after putting up a route? Not many folks today are espousing complete “no trace” canyoneering. At least there’s very little trace of anyone using those techniques;-) Unfortunately “ghosting” isn’t a word I’ve heard applied to canyoneering very much these days. Also, it’s fun and necessary to ponder these rock piles and all other anchors when descending canyons. As you know, placing bolts does not eliminate the need to evaluate the anchors. Dave PS In these rock-pile instances, you mark your turf by adding another unnecessary rock to the pile;-)
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
> Nothin’ that a couple of well placed bolts wouldn’t cure…
I like how they didn’t resort to digging into and disturbing the > pothole ecology, although, a big stack of rocks like that is hardly > a “natural anchor”.
Next flash flood that stack of rocks will alter the watercourse?
Anytime you have to construct a large anchor like that, and leave > that much webbing, one has to wonder about the impact of that versus > a much better and longer term community anchor. Especially in a > canyon that gets that much action.
Leave no trace would require folks fixing ropes then jugging back up > and dismantling these large unnatural piles of rocks with webbing > sticking out of them. I think if you’re really into the “natural” > type descent thing, and anchor building like this is part of the > game, then maybe deconstructing them at the end of the gig is more > appropriate than leaving them for other parties to ponder.
Or is this how certain dogs mark their turf?
Har har…
-Brian in SLC >
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
Nothin’ that a couple of well placed bolts wouldn’t cure…
I like how they didn’t resort to digging into and disturbing the pothole ecology, although, a big stack of rocks like that is hardly a “natural anchor”.
Next flash flood that stack of rocks will alter the watercourse?
Anytime you have to construct a large anchor like that, and leave that much webbing, one has to wonder about the impact of that versus a much better and longer term community anchor. Especially in a canyon that gets that much action.
Leave no trace would require folks fixing ropes then jugging back up and dismantling these large unnatural piles of rocks with webbing sticking out of them. I think if you’re really into the “natural” type descent thing, and anchor building like this is part of the game, then maybe deconstructing them at the end of the gig is more appropriate than leaving them for other parties to ponder.
Or is this how certain dogs mark their turf?
Har har…
-Brian in SLC
Lee Eismann
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “trackrunner83” wrote:
The mountain man username is one that I don’t like.
I’ll bet if you asked him nice and groveled some, Rich could/would change your ACA Forum username to something you prefer.
bruce silliman
If backup pin is released then Ram possibly is a dead man.
bruce from bryce
To: canyons@yahoogroups.comFrom: ratagonia@gmail.comDate: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 23:49:07 +0000Subject: [from Canyons Group] Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/Tom
_______________ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan
trackrunner83
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Lee Eismann” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “trackrunner83” wrote:
Hey this is my first post here (active @ bogley as trackrunner ACA as
mountain man).
Welcome to the Forum.
Have you been down Little Santa Anita Canyon in SoCal recently? I ask > because I found a baseball cap style hat in there a couple of weeks > ago, and the words, “Mountain Man”, are embroidered in red on the > front. It’s good quality and specifically sized as well.
Was wodering if it’s yours. > Never have been to those canyons, hope to hit someday. So no it is not my cap. The mountain man username is one that I don’t like. I went back to an older user name, trackrunner, instead.
Lori
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
> Tom >
Okay, I will show some inexperience here and say that we left this anchor just as it was in the group ahead of Tom & co… we left it for two reasons, we knew the rock was very smooth and had experienced really good pull… and we were flat out fascinated by the geometry of this thing!
Now that I’m posting this though, and going there this weekend to “view the wildflowers at peak” please do let me know if we need to change this anchor for safety or should we just leave it for future puzzlemasters! LOL! I think we have the same photos somewhere.
Lori from Las Vegas
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, scott patterson wrote: > If extending it to the lip would make it visible to tourist below, it probably shouldn’t be extended all the way to the lip, but could be closer.
It was maybe rappel 8 of 14. Very much out of view of those in the land of the living.
I assume rope burns aren’t a concern on polished limestone, but having it closer would make an easier pull.
I did over 130 raps in the 9 days. Man, the hips were sore by weeks end and the alpine bod finally caught up with me comfort wise…..I did not see one sign of a rope pull damaging any spot. Not one. The polished rock is durable and makes the pull easy. Only a half dozen took any effort at all. Good call on that. Also their was often easy horizontal walking available from each of the drops so getting better angles were super easy. The velcro, though…ah, that’s another story R
nat_smale
Quite frankly, I don’t really see much wrong with the anchor. Sure, the piton looks a bit funky, but the cairn looks pretty bomb proof. Whether it’s close to the edge or not doesn’t seem that big of an issue to me. Perhaps the one criticism that I would agree with others on is that the sling doesn’t go over the lip; I am always paranoid about sticking ropes. On the other hand, the photo that shows the anchor weighted also shows the rope pulled up off of the ground, which to me indicates that the pull probably isn’t too bad.
Nat
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
> Tom >
scott patterson
“2) webbing not extended to lip”
If extending it to the lip would make it visible to tourist below, it probably shouldn’t be extended all the way to the lip, but could be closer. I assume rope burns aren’t a concern on polished limestone, but having it closer would make an easier pull.
Anyway, the attachment to the piton doesn’t look very good.
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.
Lee Eismann
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “trackrunner83” wrote: > Hey this is my first post here (active @ bogley as trackrunner ACA as > mountain man).
Welcome to the Forum.
Have you been down Little Santa Anita Canyon in SoCal recently? I ask because I found a baseball cap style hat in there a couple of weeks ago, and the words, “Mountain Man”, are embroidered in red on the front. It’s good quality and specifically sized as well.
Was wodering if it’s yours.
trackrunner83
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
> Tom >
Hey this is my first post here (active @ bogley as trackrunner ACA as mountain man). It has to be the green webbing, not natural enough. Stick with natural colors, tan. Also might help to build the dead man like everyone else said.
Tim Hoover
Looks to me like others have found the deficiencies I would point out.
1) deadman would be much better lower 2) webbing not extended to lip 3) piton knot looks funky in picture – but may be fine
I do not consider the lazy dog in the background to be slacking. Hell, if that anchor can’t hold Ryan then Ram can’t either and why lose two at a time? Might as well save him for the next time you need to test something.
Tim
— Tom Jones ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:
> new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
> Tom
When you post, please change the Subject > appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. > You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = > Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner > and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical > Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = > Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the > abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such > as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons > Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the > "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your > delivery option. Press "Save > Changes".
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages. > Groups Links
>
__________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Kurt
I actually really like the piton settup, there is a huge amount of friction on the webbing reducing the load on the piton a lot. I think Tom put the piton pic in the mix to throw our eyes off. The knot would be better than any knot chaulk.(well some) If there is an overhand at the end of the webbing(rapide attachment) it would be redundant. o.k. really done now. —– Original Message —– From: davewyo1 To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:20 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
Direction of pull on the piton is in line with the forces that would be applied during a shock. Nasty knot attachment to piton. Not enough tail. Why not add a rapid and a new knot like a water knot etc.? Looks like your anchor isn’t extended to the lip for easy rope pull. Looks like there is some tan webbing in there. I would wonder what its function is. Keeping the deadman out of the dirt makes it more inspectable but it will certainly be swept away at the next flood(and maybe pull out the piton). Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote: > > new anchor quiz, for those who want to play: > > http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/ > > Tom >
————
Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam: Spam Not spam Forget previous vote
Kurt
One last thing and I’ll be done—- If you put the deadman in the hole, the existing webbing would almost reach the lip(length may be deceiving) Would be a little concerned about rope pull. —– Original Message —– From: Kurt To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
If really questionable Ram could add a meat backup for those ahead and then be LAMAR. But the anchor looks like it could easily be made bomber by moving the deadman into the hole. Can’t see the webbing well enough but first glance seems o.k. —– Original Message —– From: Tom Jones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:49 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
Tom
————————-
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————
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Matt Maxon
* There’s available meat not being used * the rock pile could have been moved forward and down * The webbing should have a knot to equalize
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
> Tom >
davewyo1
Direction of pull on the piton is in line with the forces that would be applied during a shock. Nasty knot attachment to piton. Not enough tail. Why not add a rapid and a new knot like a water knot etc.? Looks like your anchor isn’t extended to the lip for easy rope pull. Looks like there is some tan webbing in there. I would wonder what its function is. Keeping the deadman out of the dirt makes it more inspectable but it will certainly be swept away at the next flood(and maybe pull out the piton). Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
> Tom >
Kurt
If really questionable Ram could add a meat backup for those ahead and then be LAMAR. But the anchor looks like it could easily be made bomber by moving the deadman into the hole. Can’t see the webbing well enough but first glance seems o.k. —– Original Message —– From: Tom Jones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:49 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
Tom
————
Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam: Spam Not spam Forget previous vote
Tom Jones
Knew I could count on you, Kurt.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Kurt” wrote:
You knew I’d play, > I would clean out the pothole ahead of the deadman and build the deadman in it. Then the weight of the deadman would have to overcome gravity to come out of said hole. > Where it sits incorporates some friction but not as good as in the hole.(still studying but thought this was a timed event) > —– Original Message —– > From: Tom Jones > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:49 PM > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
> new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
> Tom
– ———–
Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam: > Spam > Not spam > Forget previous vote
> >
Kurt
You knew I’d play, I would clean out the pothole ahead of the deadman and build the deadman in it. Then the weight of the deadman would have to overcome gravity to come out of said hole. Where it sits incorporates some friction but not as good as in the hole.(still studying but thought this was a timed event) —– Original Message —– From: Tom Jones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 4:49 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Styx Canyon – Anchor Quiz – What’s wrong with this picture???
new anchor quiz, for those who want to play:
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/
Tom
————
Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam: Spam Not spam Forget previous vote