Hello canyoneers,
I have a jumar, a clog (misplaced the second one), two gibbs and numerous prussic cords, but I have never used or carried them on canyoneering trips that I can recall.
So, I am curious about what situations ascenders are used while descending canyons.
Paul Martzen Fresno, CA
On 13-Nov-02, rcwildone wrote: > Howdy Teuns,
I always carry a Shunt plus one additional > ascender. The Shunt is incredibly versatile if > you know how to use it.
My additional ascender has changed from Petzl > Basic to Wild Country RopeMan to Tiblock and > now, back to RopeMan. Tiblocks are nice, but > require you to carry more than one kind of > carabiner in case you use more than one diameter > rope. I’ve found the RopeMan to be more > versatile and smoother to operate.
Rich
P.S. Is it kloofing season in South Africa?
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> When you post, please change the Subject > appropriately, to make reading and searching > easier. You can use the following abbreviations: > TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER > = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = > Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group > Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a > Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you > are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a > limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer > Group for a truly un-moderated forum. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
> To change your delivery options, go to the > Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on > the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your > delivery option. Press "Save > Changes".
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.
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> Regards — Paul Martzen Fresno, Ca
Koen
If you’re unsure if a canyon goes (given the amount of rope or if > your trying to push thru “clean” and not leave any evidence), you > might be leaving ropes fixed to reascend as the escape route. >
I get kinda nervous reading about “casual” rope ascending in canyons… rope almost always rubs in “canyon mode” – and there’s a very good reason why cavers go to great lenghts to avoid rub of any kind: they have to jug up again and this is reeaaally bad on ropes, even with the smallest of rubs. Personally, I wouldn’t jug up a single rope if there’s anything but smooth polished rock rubbing against it over a large surface. And setting up a rope with no rub usually means putting in bolts – a lot of bolts !
In choosing your ascenders you have to ask yourself a few questions. a) in what kind of situation will I use them ? If it’s for emergency situations, forget single rope ascenders ! Why ? Because if a rope is rigged single strand it means you’ve got the rappel set up as a contigency anchor – no use going up, the problem can be lowered down. And the rub, remember ? Carrying 2 x 2 ascenders for going up double rope is overkill – so best choose ascenders that work on single AND on double rope. b) do I want to jug up a heavily loaded single strand of rope that is probably rubbing over a ledge ?
For everything else and emergency situations a figure of 8, a valdotain, some prussiks, a few carabiners without screw… all work perfectly well on double rope, weigh next to nothing or are hanging right on your belt anyway. Less is more !
If you rig a lot of tyrolean traverses or guided rappels, a jumar- type rope clamp with a handle is worth the effort taking along.
Personally, I don’t like a shunt: it’s bulky, heavy, expensive, works only well on double rope if the ropes are absolutely identical (same brand, same type, same diameter !), does all kinds of nasty things if the lever rubs against rock… for short: only suited for use in a very limited range of situations.
Taking all kinds of specific gear along for very specific purposes serves little purpose – maybe it’ll give you a false sense of security… think about it… Better acquire the skills and thus the confidence that you’re ready for any rope situation with a set of simple tools that are really versatile and are no bother taking along. That means you’ll have them on/with you the moment you need them, not left behind in the car because you didn’t figure on encountering a problem in that really easy canyon
Koen
beadysee
— In canyons@y…, Paul Martzen wrote: > It is a little hard for me to imagine a canyon > that requires aid climbing just to get to the > start, but I will take your word for it.
This will help:
Spearhead Canyon. Still would like to know who left the SMC hangers and green 1″ webbing in a point and notch style out the snout of the canyon (comes out climber’s right of Behunin and is behind the Spearhead). Looked late 70’s vintage (or early eighties).
Hook Canyon in Zion.
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/zion/foolz.htm
See also the 2001 AAJ.
When Middendorf did the FA of Abraham, he also bagged probably the first descent of “Isaac Canyon” on the backside. Great story:
http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/Abe.html
Also, when Middendorf climbed Issac he descended via the canyon on the back side and into “Jacob Canyon”. Interesting story here:
http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/Issac.html
Next thing ya know, ol’ John is hosting a canyoneering show in Zion on The Outdoor Network…(2 episodes).
Jeff Lowe, I think, did the first descent of “Jacob” canyon after either climbing Jacob or Isaac. At least the hardware there sorta fits the timeframe of his ascent/descent (old pins, stardryvin bolts). I chatted to him about his trip down the canyon and wondered why he didn’t just rap off Jacob and hike down the Lady Mountain trail. He said, “could we have done that?” Kinda funny.
But, might have been on Isaac. His old article, the classic “East of the Valley, West of the Gunks” in the 1972 Ascent had some errors.
Nuttin’ better than havin’ to work for a canyon descent…kind of a built in “gumby screen”…har har…keeps out the riff raff (and canyon bolt police…z-z-z-z-zing! Just kiddin’, fellers).
> As a side note, when ascending long vertical > drops, I still love the old “ropewalker” system, > with one gibbs at the foot, one at the knee, and a > jumar or similar spring loaded device connected > between my sit harness and my chest harness. It > is a very fast system of climbing a single rope.
Caver!
I’d like to try the ropewalker technique some day…
Fun stuff…
Brian in SLC
Tom Jones
Here’s a few more examples of using the jugs:
1. Exploratory. Descending canyon, rappel off big ledge. Can’t see the bottom, or the end of the rope. Rappel about 50′ to where I can see deeper into the canyon – nope, the bottom’s a long way down, and the rope ain’t touching anything. Guess we’ll try a different place… Jug back up.
2. More: Again, rappel down – huh, no ledge. Clip jugs onto rope and rappel to near the end. Adjust position. Construct anchor in the middle of a blank wall. Using jugs rather than just rappelling against a knot allows for more flexibility in positioning.
3. Sometimes the rope gets stuck. If you still have both ends (or pretty close) you can jug up the rope to re-rig the rappel. Sometimes having the jugs just lets you pull *really hard* on the rope, and it comes down anyway. I’ve done this 6 times in the last year, including on two different pulls in Employee Canyon (careful of that one).
Tom
— In canyons@y…, Paul Martzen wrote: > Hello beadysee
Thank you for the serious reply to my question. > Each of your examples makes sense and such > examples was what I was interested in.
Clearly, if one is using ascenders, one has a > fixed rope to ascend. One is either retreating > up ropes fixed on the descent or someone has > climbed up a section and fixed rope for those who > are following.
The “combo platter” idea sounds like fun. It also > makes sense that there are some canyons where it > is more fun to descend an interesting sections and > then ascend back out rather than hike a long ways > at the bottom.
It is a little hard for me to imagine a canyon > that requires aid climbing just to get to the > start, but I will take your word for it.
I have had to haul someone out from the start of a > canyon trip once, and ascenders might have helped > a bit, but we just dealt with it. It was only > about a 40 foot haul, so we rigged a team hauling > system.
It is just interesting that around here we/I have > not been in the habit of carrying ascenders when > canyoneering, though I have often used them for other > activities.
As a side note, when ascending long vertical > drops, I still love the old “ropewalker” system, > with one gibbs at the foot, one at the knee, and a > jumar or similar spring loaded device connected > between my sit harness and my chest harness. It > is a very fast system of climbing a single rope.
Best regards,
Paul Martzen > Fresno, CA
On 14-Nov-02, beadysee wrote:
— In canyons@y…, Paul Martzen
wrote:
> So, I am curious about what situations
> ascenders are used while descending canyons.
Especially useful for a “combo platter”.
Split into two groups. Each group descends a
fork of a canyon leaving all drops fixed. Meet
in the middle, exchange car keys, then jug up
fixed ropes and out. Two canyons for the price
of one! Efficient, fun, something to do…
Also, very useful if just gettin’ to a canyon
involves any aid climbing shenanigans.
And, if a rope gets stuck, pretty handy for
reascending to “unstuck”.
If you’re unsure if a canyon goes (given the
amount of rope or if your trying to push thru
“clean” and not leave any evidence), you might
be leaving ropes fixed to reascend as the escape
route. Or, as a convenience if the hike out the
bottom is really really long…
Or, say your partner gets hurt on the first
drop. Easiest option for self rescue may be to
reascend and having the means to do it quickly,
and maybe even rig a haul system, might be purty
handy.
Brian in SLC
beadysee
— In canyons@y…, Paul Martzen wrote: > So, I am curious about what situations ascenders > are used while descending canyons.
Especially useful for a “combo platter”.
Split into two groups. Each group descends a fork of a canyon leaving all drops fixed. Meet in the middle, exchange car keys, then jug up fixed ropes and out. Two canyons for the price of one! Efficient, fun, something to do…
Also, very useful if just gettin’ to a canyon involves any aid climbing shenanigans.
And, if a rope gets stuck, pretty handy for reascending to “unstuck”.
If you’re unsure if a canyon goes (given the amount of rope or if your trying to push thru “clean” and not leave any evidence), you might be leaving ropes fixed to reascend as the escape route. Or, as a convenience if the hike out the bottom is really really long…
Or, say your partner gets hurt on the first drop. Easiest option for self rescue may be to reascend and having the means to do it quickly, and maybe even rig a haul system, might be purty handy.
Brian in SLC
Stefan Hofmann
Hi,
I uploaded two pitures of another possibility to use the TBloc (for Hank ;-). The new system works much better (even when it is not yet perfect).
In very vertical canyons I am always carrying jumars (climbing up 40 m with TBloc and/or Shunt is not good for old men like me 😉
For most of the other canyons TBloc and Shunt works very good. I used Wild Country RopeMan a few years ago and it was very rusty at the end of the season (I couldn’t move any part of the RopMan – everything was blocked). So I was very happy when the TBloc came out and I am still using TBloc (even when its teeth look so dangerous …).
There are a lot of situations to climb back to the top in a canyon – especially in professional guiding. So carry that stuff for day ‘X’.
Stefan
Shane Burrows
>>Sometimes ya gotta go up to go down…
hmoon@petzl.com
Sometimes ya gotta go up to go down…
Paul Martzen pamartzen@cvip.n To: Yahoo Canyons Group et> cc: Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: TECH – Ascenders used 01/05/1978 01:43 AM Please respond to canyons
Hello canyoneers,
I have a jumar, a clog (misplaced the second one), two gibbs and numerous prussic cords, but I have never used or carried them on canyoneering trips that I can recall.
So, I am curious about what situations ascenders are used while descending canyons.
Paul Martzen Fresno, CA
On 13-Nov-02, rcwildone wrote: > Howdy Teuns,
I always carry a Shunt plus one additional > ascender. The Shunt is incredibly versatile if > you know how to use it.
My additional ascender has changed from Petzl > Basic to Wild Country RopeMan to Tiblock and > now, back to RopeMan. Tiblocks are nice, but > require you to carry more than one kind of > carabiner in case you use more than one diameter > rope. I’ve found the RopeMan to be more > versatile and smoother to operate.
Rich
P.S. Is it kloofing season in South Africa?
> ———————— Groups Sponsor > ———————~–> Sell a Home with Ease! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/ASSHAA/R2TolB/TM
—~-
> When you post, please change the Subject > appropriately, to make reading and searching > easier. You can use the following abbreviations: > TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER > = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = > Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group > Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a > Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you > are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a > limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer > Group for a truly un-moderated forum. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
> To change your delivery options, go to the > Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on > the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your > delivery option. Press "Save > Changes".
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.
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> Regards — Paul Martzen Fresno, Ca
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
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canyonz
I used a Tibloc and a Shunt, but (even with Stefan’s way of rigging it) the Tibloc slips down when not tensioned, which is a real pain at times. I now use Ropeman 2 and Shunt. What I don’t like about the Shunt is the bulky cam that doesn’t like going over edges.
A mate of mine has ust started using an USHBA ascender (made of recycled soviet planes! so I’ keen to get his impression on it. Looksa bit like a shunt, very light (titanium) and very smooth, but he has only been using it it an industrial rappelling context. Any USHBA canyoners out there?
Julien Senamaud —– CANYONZ info@canyonz.co.nz http://www.canyonz.co.nz NZ Freephone 0800 4 CANYONZ 0800 422 696 Phone: +64 9 630 2776 Fax: +64 9 630 2779 PO Box 68057, Newton Auckland, New Zealand
—– Original Message —– From: “Teuns Kok” Teuns.Kok@capetown.gov.za> To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 12:56 AM Subject: [from Canyons Group] TECH – Ascenders used
> Hi
The most general mechanical ascenders available in SA is the Petzl > Shunt and standard Petzl Ascenders and the Petzl Basic. Any comment > regarding the Shunt and Basic? (The Basic also has those nasty looking > teeth like the Tiblocks!). What would you recommend? What ascenders do > you guys carry with?
Thanks for the info.
Teuns > o > ~() > // >
> When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
> To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save > Changes".
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages.
> Your use of Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
beadysee
— In canyons@y…, “Tom Jones” wrote: > Like Brian, if I plan to use them, I bring my Clog handled ascenders.
Most of the little things are almost impossible to force over an > edge.
The other beauty of a handled ascender, is for short up climbs. You can fix a rope and hang a handled ascender and folks don’t have to stuggle with a “one move wonder” upclimb. Just grab into the handle on the ascender, and step up. Makes for fast travel in a group. Beats hangin’ off a webbing strap on a micro ascender. And, much easier to push up a rope.
Brian in SLC
Tom Jones
I HAVE been using and promoting the Wild Country Ropeman 1, and it has worked well for me on ropes as small as 6mm. However, after two years of carrying them and using occasionally, they are clogged with sand and the springs are shot. They are not particularly durable. So I’m getting 1 Petzl Basic to use on the top, and will continue with the WC Ropeman I on the bottom until it fails.
Like Brian, if I plan to use them, I bring my Clog handled ascenders.
Most of the little things are almost impossible to force over an edge. Seems like, when using the little things, it is almost required to have a third ascender of some kind at hand, in case you have to cross and edge. So you’ll probably find a Tibloc hanging off the back of my harness also.
Tom
— In canyons@y…, “Teuns Kok” wrote: > Hi
The most general mechanical ascenders available in SA is the Petzl > Shunt and standard Petzl Ascenders and the Petzl Basic. Any comment > regarding the Shunt and Basic? (The Basic also has those nasty looking > teeth like the Tiblocks!). What would you recommend? What ascenders do > you guys carry with?
Thanks for the info.
Teuns > o > ~() > // >
hmoon@petzl.com
Useage notes on RopeMan: it is made for use only on 10-11 mm rope, according to Wild Country. The RopeMan MKII is for 8.5-11 mm rope. On slabby terrain, make sure you don’t load the devie with the cam against the rock – I once stood up in one and zipped down the rope a foot or two before it grabbed – scary, but no damage done to me or rope. Great little device, and has no teeth to snag the rope sheath.
Useage notes on Tibloc: There is no real need to take different carabiners for different ropes, but it might make sense to reduce friction if you are carrying a wide range of rope diameters, say, 8 – 11 mm. An Attache works great on 8 mm, but provides quite a bit of friction on 11 mm. The device has no spring and must be pre-positioned before loading to help prevent possible rope damage. For this reason, a lot of people have gravitated toward the RM. Stefan promotes a slightly different rigging of the Tibloc to mitigate the rope damage issue. A picture of the rig used to be up on the CEC website, but don’t see it now. Stefan? You got a pic to post of your alternate rig?
Useage notes on other ascenders: the pointy teeth on Petzl ascenders are there to help grip the the rope better, especially in muddy or icy conditions. The tradeoff (“no advantage w/o disadvantage” says a friend of mine) is that it can sometimes be tricky to downclimb or release the cam (when cleaning traversing aid pitch, for example). In other words, it takes some practice to get good at downclimbing with Petzl jugs. If your ascenders are primarily for going up a rope, Petzl’s are fine. If you expect to be doing a lot of lateral maneuvering on them, might consider a less pointy brand (CMI, Jumar, SRT, Yates).
hank
“rcwildone” cc: Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] TECH – Ascenders used 11/13/2002 07:05 AM Please respond to canyons
Howdy Teuns,
I always carry a Shunt plus one additional ascender. The Shunt is incredibly versatile if you know how to use it.
My additional ascender has changed from Petzl Basic to Wild Country RopeMan to Tiblock and now, back to RopeMan. Tiblocks are nice, but require you to carry more than one kind of carabiner in case you use more than one diameter rope. I’ve found the RopeMan to be more versatile and smoother to operate.
Rich
P.S. Is it kloofing season in South Africa?
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
Bombastic Bolt Debates are allowed to only a limited extent. Folks should go to the Canyoneer Group for a truly un-moderated forum. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyoneer
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages.
Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms of Service.
beadysee
— In canyons@y…, “Teuns Kok” wrote: > Hi
The most general mechanical ascenders available in SA is the Petzl > Shunt and standard Petzl Ascenders and the Petzl Basic. Any comment > regarding the Shunt and Basic? (The Basic also has those nasty looking > teeth like the Tiblocks!). What would you recommend? What ascenders do > you guys carry with?
Prussic cord.
If I know I’m going to be ascending (especially any distance), then a pair of handled Petzl Ascenders. I rig the distance to the top one with an adjustable daisy (Pika or Yates). Nice to have a handle. And, the Petzl model is lightweight.
If I know I’m going to be ascending AND traversing, then a pair of Jumars (easiest to take on and off the rope to pass horizontal fixed gear, etc).
Wild Country Ropeman is nice (the original, with no teeth).
No Tibloc for me (or on my ropes!).
Am going to try a USHBA basic ascender. Lightweight, no teeth and “might” hold on the rope from either direction, if need be (cam action toggles back and forth).
Nice thing about prussics, you can use them on a single, double or triple strand.
Brian in SLC
rcwildone
Howdy Teuns,
I always carry a Shunt plus one additional ascender. The Shunt is incredibly versatile if you know how to use it.
My additional ascender has changed from Petzl Basic to Wild Country RopeMan to Tiblock and now, back to RopeMan. Tiblocks are nice, but require you to carry more than one kind of carabiner in case you use more than one diameter rope. I’ve found the RopeMan to be more versatile and smoother to operate.
Rich
P.S. Is it kloofing season in South Africa?
Teuns Kok
Hi
The most general mechanical ascenders available in SA is the Petzl Shunt and standard Petzl Ascenders and the Petzl Basic. Any comment regarding the Shunt and Basic? (The Basic also has those nasty looking teeth like the Tiblocks!). What would you recommend? What ascenders do you guys carry with?
Thanks for the info.
Teuns o ~() //
Paul Martzen
Hello beadysee
Thank you for the serious reply to my question. Each of your examples makes sense and such examples was what I was interested in.
Clearly, if one is using ascenders, one has a fixed rope to ascend. One is either retreating up ropes fixed on the descent or someone has climbed up a section and fixed rope for those who are following.
The “combo platter” idea sounds like fun. It also makes sense that there are some canyons where it is more fun to descend an interesting sections and then ascend back out rather than hike a long ways at the bottom.
It is a little hard for me to imagine a canyon that requires aid climbing just to get to the start, but I will take your word for it.
I have had to haul someone out from the start of a canyon trip once, and ascenders might have helped a bit, but we just dealt with it. It was only about a 40 foot haul, so we rigged a team hauling system.
It is just interesting that around here we/I have not been in the habit of carrying ascenders when canyoneering, though I have often used them for other activities.
As a side note, when ascending long vertical drops, I still love the old “ropewalker” system, with one gibbs at the foot, one at the knee, and a jumar or similar spring loaded device connected between my sit harness and my chest harness. It is a very fast system of climbing a single rope.
Best regards,
Paul Martzen Fresno, CA
On 14-Nov-02, beadysee wrote: > — In canyons@y…, Paul Martzen > wrote: >> So, I am curious about what situations >> ascenders are used while descending canyons.
Especially useful for a “combo platter”.
Split into two groups. Each group descends a > fork of a canyon leaving all drops fixed. Meet > in the middle, exchange car keys, then jug up > fixed ropes and out. Two canyons for the price > of one! Efficient, fun, something to do…
Also, very useful if just gettin’ to a canyon > involves any aid climbing shenanigans.
And, if a rope gets stuck, pretty handy for > reascending to “unstuck”.
If you’re unsure if a canyon goes (given the > amount of rope or if your trying to push thru > “clean” and not leave any evidence), you might > be leaving ropes fixed to reascend as the escape > route. Or, as a convenience if the hike out the > bottom is really really long…
Or, say your partner gets hurt on the first > drop. Easiest option for self rescue may be to > reascend and having the means to do it quickly, > and maybe even rig a haul system, might be purty > handy.
Brian in SLC