Earlier this spring I was a guest at a cavers practice session. I was in awe of the equipment and their techniques. The experience was enlightening and informative. They do have a lot of gear.
Felicia
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 29, 2012, at 10:33 AM, “TomJones” ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:
> If one is attempting to perfect the craft of climbing a rope, a day or two training with cavers would be time well spent.
A story:
Roger was very enthusiastic ascending ropes, and figured out a good system for himself and his family — essentially a caver’s rig. Roger was also hard of hearing, a condition exasperated by the background noise of a wet and flowing canyon.
We were in a canyon, a flowing water canyon, and completed a 30′ rappel which for some reason did not pull, so someone had to go back up. I don’t remember it being risky, so it was not a question of risk. Roger saw his opportunity to contribute, spoke up, and started digging his ascending kit out of his pack, and setting it up on his harness and body to be ready to climb the rope. As he completed preparations he turned around… to find me pulling over the top of the rope climb.
Now, the point of this story is NOT that I am such an a** for robbing Roger of a chance to shine; but that the rare rope climb required in a canyoneering environment can be dealt with expeditiously by simple, lightweight tools and knowing how to use them.
We have quite a few people that come to canyoneering from caving. You can reveal this bit of their background by lifting their pack – for the first year or two, cavers tend to bring their 3-4 lb ascending kit with them in canyons “just in case”. At some point they realize there is very little point in carrying heavy, expensive and bulky tools for a task that can be achieved just slightly less efficiently by light, not expensive and tiny tools — and that hopefully only need happen on very rare occasions.
Therefore, may I suggest that those seeking to perfect the craft of climbing ropes follow the good advice offered by our caving friends here. For canyoneers, a much, much, much simpler rig is in order, and practice. Steady practice, until the motions are learned and one can set up on rope without having to figure it out each time.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “kuenn_k2”
Certainly the NSS has a plethora of experience in this area and observing the different climbing systems can help one decide which one might be right for them. If a local grotto doesn’t offer the expertise there are other sources, not the least of which is Allen Padgett and Bruce Smith’s book “On Rope”. However, as has already been stated multiple times in this discussion (and here goes another) you’ve gotta spend time doing this stuff in a controlled environment to determine the best fit for you…and setting up this enviro can be as easy as your backyard.
When prepping for a long climb or training I use a setup in my horse barn (could be a tree, garage, basketball goal or even your great room; and yes I’ve seen such setups in each of these venues… but I digress), basically what you need is about 10 feet clearance. My barn setup consists of a pulley at top and a belay device at floor level. Thread in your longest rope, have someone belay and “voila” start practice climbing (tie a figure eight knot in the end of the rope in case your belay partner gets distracted). You’re basically climbing in place, i.e. “treadmill” climbing. And with a slight variation you can accomplish this without a belay partner. My wife and daughter tired quickly of coming to the barn in the wee-morning hours so my treadmill now incorporates a self-belay system which offers zero interference to the practice climb.
In response to Lee’s acute observation:
“I have watched canyoneers in workshops try in vain to ascend with all sorts of systems. They are too top heavy or not strong enough for the system they created.”
In my experience this embodies the most over-looked element of a “proper” climbing system. The upper torso has to be attached to the rope via some sort of chest-harness apparatus to reduce and even eliminate (yes, this is possible with some systems) the need for upper body strength.
There are 4 basic climbing systems that NSS members utilize: Frog, Mitchell, Texas and Rope-Walker. There are many subtle refinements in each of these four systems but I’ve yet to see a climbing system that eventually didn’t tie back to one of them. From my experience Frog is the least weighty and Rope-walker is “hands-down” the most efficient – the draw-back is it’s weightier. My back wont hold up to frogging so I personally prefer the rope-walker; will gladly sacrifice the extra pound or two for efficiency…i.e. climbing 100 feet in under a minute… and I’m over 50 around 190 (again I digress/boast)
flutedwalls
Wow, someone took a slight poke at Roger, and he’s not around to respond. I hear an echo, go to bat for the fellow, he’d like to preserve that clean rocket scientist rand canyon reputation.
I might have some, little or no experience in the ascending a rope arena? Or yes, I was for part of a decade one that joined Roger/Jane and others on many multi-day ascending fests. The gear evolved and then one weekend, both of us made some big buys – no to the texas system and yes to caving harnesses & frogging. Then, we also used a speed stirrup, croll and basic. Myself in normal canyon mode I carried/carry something (smaller lighter, slightly different) I could quickly attach to the climbing harness and be able to somewhat efficiently rise a rope. The day Roger apparently was with Tom, I have no idea if he carried his caving harness along and if he had his torse, croll and basic. If he did, I can understand him using the same – weight was not an issue – the gear was second nature to him and he was in the HABIT of doing the same. Tom could have waited patiently and let roger climb the line, but I assume Tom wished to show his prowess and get at the task quickly.
One of the challenges I have is not forecasting the future or in carrying a crystal ball. If in a canyon with drops to 200 -250 – 300 is it reasonable if one needs to make a long ascent vs 30 ft, to use a tiny petzl device that needs to be set properly on each rise? If some want or wish to do it that way – a blessing to them. But I know many/myself included that will not use the itty bitty device. Mercy. Something wrong with them, us, Roger (past tense). (I suppose that were Roger still around, he’d pipe up, he had no love for the itty bitty.
Ascending a rope – politics, religion, relationships. Is there is just one way to do it and is it OK to maybe learn ascension steps re caving, climbing and canyons and incorporate and/or distinguish benefits or detriment of each/certain systems. I’m all for a lite, quick easy system – some can do it their way and others can do it theirs. But be careful about poking fun at Roger (the deceased) and lauding yourself, he may rise from the ashes/grave and share stories re Tom – plenty of them – and wouldn’t that be grand humor or drama? Or better yet, amnesia should surround us all such that our misdeeds, slips and errors never shadow us again. Kudos to Roger for the spirited soul he was, and kudos to the king and emporer tom who shares a ubiquitous quiver of goods that many/most use in canyons.
Who shall ascend into the the hill of the lord and stand in his holy place? A tibloc, the key to heavenly ascension? Roger in his mostly sectarian way, would take a pass I imagine on rising to the (supposed) lord, but he would be game for an angels resort where folk rise 350-450 (cumulative) in stunning beautiful watery canyons. Yea, there are three degrees of glory and bliss -and the third, where angels resort – I can see Roger there now, beaming and explaining wow, this is beautiful. (So please, let’s the give the man some slack – he’s not around to cross examine, offer rebuttal, or to make cross allegation.
Interesting to me, to see how so many canyon leaders over the past decade evolved re their in canyon, lite ascending gear. And some of them ACAheads, or present Canyon Guides are so adamant that their present style or gear is the proper way. Funny long ago I saw a few of them laboriously rise a rope while others more efficiently topped out quicker. A Bachman with a biner or an old gri gri come to mind? In the end – no bottom line for me – what are peoples interests, inclinations and styles? Safety, efficiency and smooth body language with whatever system one chooses. (heck, never stick a rope and you never have to go back up). It’s all an esoteric waste of time – except for those of course that slide down and then go back up (wow!) and finally in a riveting and compelling way, connect with canyons. Yikes Roger I/we miss you, and your dear Jane misses you big time, deeply. Roger may not hear too well, but possibly he’s tuned in to the canyons group and wants to get a lift after being slightly (courteously mostly) put down.
A hearty salute to Roger and all the canyons we/others ascended together. We were “frogs” and we felt like that sometimes when we’d come face to face with those critters on a long watery ascent. Rest in peace brother. And save the rebuttal for the other side, I guess, where amnesia hopefully comes in a drink , or in Roger’s case, lager.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
If one is attempting to perfect the craft of climbing a rope, a day or two training with cavers would be time well spent.
A story:
Roger was very enthusiastic ascending ropes, and figured out a good system for himself and his family — essentially a caver’s rig. Roger was also hard of hearing, a condition exasperated by the background noise of a wet and flowing canyon.
We were in a canyon, a flowing water canyon, and completed a 30′ rappel which for some reason did not pull, so someone had to go back up. I don’t remember it being risky, so it was not a question of risk. Roger saw his opportunity to contribute, spoke up, and started digging his ascending kit out of his pack, and setting it up on his harness and body to be ready to climb the rope. As he completed preparations he turned around… to find me pulling over the top of the rope climb.
Now, the point of this story is NOT that I am such an a** for robbing Roger of a chance to shine; but that the rare rope climb required in a canyoneering environment can be dealt with expeditiously by simple, lightweight tools and knowing how to use them.
We have quite a few people that come to canyoneering from caving. You can reveal this bit of their background by lifting their pack – for the first year or two, cavers tend to bring their 3-4 lb ascending kit with them in canyons “just in case”. At some point they realize there is very little point in carrying heavy, expensive and bulky tools for a task that can be achieved just slightly less efficiently by light, not expensive and tiny tools — and that hopefully only need happen on very rare occasions.
Therefore, may I suggest that those seeking to perfect the craft of climbing ropes follow the good advice offered by our caving friends here. For canyoneers, a much, much, much simpler rig is in order, and practice. Steady practice, until the motions are learned and one can set up on rope without having to figure it out each time.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “kuenn_k2” wrote:
Certainly the NSS has a plethora of experience in this area and observing the different climbing systems can help one decide which one might be right for them. If a local grotto doesn’t offer the expertise there are other sources, not the least of which is Allen Padgett and Bruce Smith’s book “On Rope”. However, as has already been stated multiple times in this discussion (and here goes another) you’ve gotta spend time doing this stuff in a controlled environment to determine the best fit for you…and setting up this enviro can be as easy as your backyard.
When prepping for a long climb or training I use a setup in my horse barn (could be a tree, garage, basketball goal or even your great room; and yes I’ve seen such setups in each of these venues… but I digress), basically what you need is about 10 feet clearance. My barn setup consists of a pulley at top and a belay device at floor level. Thread in your longest rope, have someone belay and “voila” start practice climbing (tie a figure eight knot in the end of the rope in case your belay partner gets distracted). You’re basically climbing in place, i.e. “treadmill” climbing. And with a slight variation you can accomplish this without a belay partner. My wife and daughter tired quickly of coming to the barn in the wee-morning hours so my treadmill now incorporates a self-belay system which offers zero interference to the practice climb.
In response to Lee’s acute observation:
“I have watched canyoneers in workshops try in vain to ascend with all sorts of systems. They are too top heavy or not strong enough for the system they created.”
In my experience this embodies the most over-looked element of a “proper” climbing system. The upper torso has to be attached to the rope via some sort of chest-harness apparatus to reduce and even eliminate (yes, this is possible with some systems) the need for upper body strength.
There are 4 basic climbing systems that NSS members utilize: Frog, Mitchell, Texas and Rope-Walker. There are many subtle refinements in each of these four systems but I’ve yet to see a climbing system that eventually didn’t tie back to one of them. From my experience Frog is the least weighty and Rope-walker is “hands-down” the most efficient – the draw-back is it’s weightier. My back wont hold up to frogging so I personally prefer the rope-walker; will gladly sacrifice the extra pound or two for efficiency…i.e. climbing 100 feet in under a minute… and I’m over 50 around 190 (again I digress/boast)
>
TomJones
ha ha…
no.
A system optimized for climbing a 600 foot free-hanging rope is unlikely to be a good choice for a 30′ canyon ropeclimb, up a chimney and a low-angle slab.
How about that.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “kuenn_k2” wrote:
So Tom, was the moral of that story — Roger was a vertical noob?
I’ve been caving, well for a longer time than I care to admit. My first “official” canyoneering trip was in 2009, so I’m a self-proclaimed novice at this. >
kuenn_k2
Yes, and that too.
Recently we “rocked” a pack with a rather large bullfrog “live”… she caught on when she observerd her pack moving!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, jabridaka@… wrote:
Now I thought “rocking your pack” was cavers way of saying you are accepted?
—– Original Message —– > From: “kuenn_k2” Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] TECH: Ascenders
ÂÂ
> For the record, I’ve “condescended” to a 9+ mil in the canyons, however I still lug my 11s when I’m in the dark… well, most of the time.
I agree we are guilty of carrying waaay too much gear and our systems can be rather bulky, alas, when you’re forced to ascend every time you descend…
Fair warning, be careful when playing with cavers, if we think you’re pack is looking rather wimpy, you may discover some extra ballast at the end of the day…”rock it”!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , jabridaka@ wrote:
After 10 years of doing canyons I started caving too. Ascending is no longer feared and I am working on getting them to use less gear. That damn 11mm rope is a bitch to lug around. Also after caving you will never again be afraid to rap in the dark.
—– Original Message —–
From: “Felicia” To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:46:16 PM
Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] TECH: Ascenders
ÂÂÂ
Earlier this spring I was a guest at a cavers practice session. I was in awe of the equipment and their techniques. The experience was enlightening and informative. They do have a lot of gear.
Felicia
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 29, 2012, at 10:33 AM, “TomJones” < ratagonia@ > wrote:
> If one is attempting to perfect the craft of climbing a rope, a day or two training with cavers would be time well spent.
A story:
Roger was very enthusiastic ascending ropes, and figured out a good system for himself and his family — essentially a caver’s rig. Roger was also hard of hearing, a condition exasperated by the background noise of a wet and flowing canyon.
We were in a canyon, a flowing water canyon, and completed a 30′ rappel which for some reason did not pull, so someone had to go back up. I don’t remember it being risky, so it was not a question of risk. Roger saw his opportunity to contribute, spoke up, and started digging his ascending kit out of his pack, and setting it up on his harness and body to be ready to climb the rope. As he completed preparations he turned around… to find me pulling over the top of the rope climb.
Now, the point of this story is NOT that I am such an a** for robbing Roger of a chance to shine; but that the rare rope climb required in a canyoneering environment can be dealt with expeditiously by simple, lightweight tools and knowing how to use them.
We have quite a few people that come to canyoneering from caving. You can reveal this bit of their background by lifting their pack – for the first year or two, cavers tend to bring their 3-4 lb ascending kit with them in canyons “just in case”. At some point they realize there is very little point in carrying heavy, expensive and bulky tools for a task that can be achieved just slightly less efficiently by light, not expensive and tiny tools — and that hopefully only need happen on very rare occasions.
Therefore, may I suggest that those seeking to perfect the craft of climbing ropes follow the good advice offered by our caving friends here. For canyoneers, a much, much, much simpler rig is in order, and practice. Steady practice, until the motions are learned and one can set up on rope without having to figure it out each time.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “kuenn_k2” wrote:
Certainly the NSS has a plethora of experience in this area and observing the different climbing systems can help one decide which one might be right for them. If a local grotto doesn’t offer the expertise there are other sources, not the least of which is Allen Padgett and Bruce Smith’s book “On Rope”. However, as has already been stated multiple times in this discussion (and here goes another) you’ve gotta spend time doing this stuff in a controlled environment to determine the best fit for you…and setting up this enviro can be as easy as your backyard.
When prepping for a long climb or training I use a setup in my horse barn (could be a tree, garage, basketball goal or even your great room; and yes I’ve seen such setups in each of these venues… but I digress), basically what you need is about 10 feet clearance. My barn setup consists of a pulley at top and a belay device at floor level. Thread in your longest rope, have someone belay and “voila” start practice climbing (tie a figure eight knot in the end of the rope in case your belay partner gets distracted). You’re basically climbing in place, i.e. “treadmill” climbing. And with a slight variation you can accomplish this without a belay partner. My wife and daughter tired quickly of coming to the barn in the wee-morning hours so my treadmill now incorporates a self-belay system which offers zero interference to the practice climb.
In response to Lee’s acute observation:
“I have watched canyoneers in workshops try in vain to ascend with all sorts of systems. They are too top heavy or not strong enough for the system they created.”
In my experience this embodies the most over-looked element of a “proper” climbing system. The upper torso has to be attached to the rope via some sort of chest-harness apparatus to reduce and even eliminate (yes, this is possible with some systems) the need for upper body strength.
There are 4 basic climbing systems that NSS members utilize: Frog, Mitchell, Texas and Rope-Walker. There are many subtle refinements in each of these four systems but I’ve yet to see a climbing system that eventually didn’t tie back to one of them. From my experience Frog is the least weighty and Rope-walker is “hands-down” the most efficient – the draw-back is it’s weightier. My back wont hold up to frogging so I personally prefer the rope-walker; will gladly sacrifice the extra pound or two for efficiency…i.e. climbing 100 feet in under a minute… and I’m over 50 around 190 (again I digress/boast)
> >
kuenn_k2
So Tom, was the moral of that story — Roger was a vertical noob?
I’ve been caving, well for a longer time than I care to admit. My first “official” canyoneering trip was in 2009, so I’m a self-proclaimed novice at this.
Follow-up Story:
Our very first slot canyon, 5 cavers, zero canyoneers. We were in Moab doing Teir-drop as I recall its name; as a maiden voyage we felt like it was within our experience level based on the beta.
As y’all probably know it has 3 raps, R2 about 60′. (Now all good vertical-cavers tie a figure-eight-on-a-bight in the end of the rope before “throw and go”; especially when uncertain as to the drop’s depth, but basically it’s a best practice technique. First man down is “supposed to” undo the knot. We’re not normally pulling-down but eventually there will be a pull-up and that knot will most certainly get lodged, if still there.)
So, we all drop R2 and start the pull (even whilst basking in the confidence of our new found skills) at that very moment we all observe the 8 as it flips over the upper lip of the drop. Crap! Who didn’t? Scott! (Scott being the one that did the throw.)
Question: “so, who brought their climbing gear?” Reply: (3 in unison) “you told us we wouldn’t need it!” (For the record I had a tibloc and a couple of prusik slings, but that ain’t my normal ascending gear, and I was not figuring on using it.)
Sheepishly Scott responds, “Nobody told me not to bring mine.” Great, you’re it! So, we finished our pull until the 8 was hopefully securely blocked on the rap ring and waited, snickered, as Scott ascended the rope. Which was also a first, we normally have a more bomb proof anchor rig.
On the walk out we all enjoyed a good laugh over it, but since that trip we’ve made certain that at least one person has packed their climbing system.
We’ve now adopted Canyoneering as a new favorite, west of the Mississippi, activity and have made annual trips to mecca since 2009. That same 2009 group along with a couple more are looking forward to our upcoming trip to ZNP in two weeks.
See you in a loooooong slot on a short rope soon!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
If one is attempting to perfect the craft of climbing a rope, a day or two training with cavers would be time well spent.
A story:
Roger was very enthusiastic ascending ropes, and figured out a good system for himself and his family — essentially a caver’s rig. Roger was also hard of hearing, a condition exasperated by the background noise of a wet and flowing canyon.
We were in a canyon, a flowing water canyon, and completed a 30′ rappel which for some reason did not pull, so someone had to go back up. I don’t remember it being risky, so it was not a question of risk. Roger saw his opportunity to contribute, spoke up, and started digging his ascending kit out of his pack, and setting it up on his harness and body to be ready to climb the rope. As he completed preparations he turned around… to find me pulling over the top of the rope climb.
Now, the point of this story is NOT that I am such an a** for robbing Roger of a chance to shine; but that the rare rope climb required in a canyoneering environment can be dealt with expeditiously by simple, lightweight tools and knowing how to use them.
We have quite a few people that come to canyoneering from caving. You can reveal this bit of their background by lifting their pack – for the first year or two, cavers tend to bring their 3-4 lb ascending kit with them in canyons “just in case”. At some point they realize there is very little point in carrying heavy, expensive and bulky tools for a task that can be achieved just slightly less efficiently by light, not expensive and tiny tools — and that hopefully only need happen on very rare occasions.
Therefore, may I suggest that those seeking to perfect the craft of climbing ropes follow the good advice offered by our caving friends here. For canyoneers, a much, much, much simpler rig is in order, and practice. Steady practice, until the motions are learned and one can set up on rope without having to figure it out each time.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “kuenn_k2” wrote:
Certainly the NSS has a plethora of experience in this area and observing the different climbing systems can help one decide which one might be right for them. If a local grotto doesn’t offer the expertise there are other sources, not the least of which is Allen Padgett and Bruce Smith’s book “On Rope”. However, as has already been stated multiple times in this discussion (and here goes another) you’ve gotta spend time doing this stuff in a controlled environment to determine the best fit for you…and setting up this enviro can be as easy as your backyard.
When prepping for a long climb or training I use a setup in my horse barn (could be a tree, garage, basketball goal or even your great room; and yes I’ve seen such setups in each of these venues… but I digress), basically what you need is about 10 feet clearance. My barn setup consists of a pulley at top and a belay device at floor level. Thread in your longest rope, have someone belay and “voila” start practice climbing (tie a figure eight knot in the end of the rope in case your belay partner gets distracted). You’re basically climbing in place, i.e. “treadmill” climbing. And with a slight variation you can accomplish this without a belay partner. My wife and daughter tired quickly of coming to the barn in the wee-morning hours so my treadmill now incorporates a self-belay system which offers zero interference to the practice climb.
In response to Lee’s acute observation:
“I have watched canyoneers in workshops try in vain to ascend with all sorts of systems. They are too top heavy or not strong enough for the system they created.”
In my experience this embodies the most over-looked element of a “proper” climbing system. The upper torso has to be attached to the rope via some sort of chest-harness apparatus to reduce and even eliminate (yes, this is possible with some systems) the need for upper body strength.
There are 4 basic climbing systems that NSS members utilize: Frog, Mitchell, Texas and Rope-Walker. There are many subtle refinements in each of these four systems but I’ve yet to see a climbing system that eventually didn’t tie back to one of them. From my experience Frog is the least weighty and Rope-walker is “hands-down” the most efficient – the draw-back is it’s weightier. My back wont hold up to frogging so I personally prefer the rope-walker; will gladly sacrifice the extra pound or two for efficiency…i.e. climbing 100 feet in under a minute… and I’m over 50 around 190 (again I digress/boast)
>
jabridaka@comcast.net
Now I thought “rocking your pack” was cavers way of saying you are accepted?
—– Original Message —– From: “kuenn_k2” kuenn@bellsouth.net> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 2:02:47 PM Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] TECH: Ascenders
ÂÂ
For the record, I’ve “condescended” to a 9+ mil in the canyons, however I still lug my 11s when I’m in the dark… well, most of the time.
I agree we are guilty of carrying waaay too much gear and our systems can be rather bulky, alas, when you’re forced to ascend every time you descend…
Fair warning, be careful when playing with cavers, if we think you’re pack is looking rather wimpy, you may discover some extra ballast at the end of the day…”rock it”!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , jabridaka@… wrote:
After 10 years of doing canyons I started caving too. Ascending is no longer feared and I am working on getting them to use less gear. That damn 11mm rope is a bitch to lug around. Also after caving you will never again be afraid to rap in the dark.
—– Original Message —– > From: “Felicia” Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] TECH: Ascenders
ÂÂÂ
> Earlier this spring I was a guest at a cavers practice session. I was in awe of the equipment and their techniques. The experience was enlightening and informative. They do have a lot of gear.
Felicia
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 29, 2012, at 10:33 AM, “TomJones” < ratagonia@... > wrote:
> If one is attempting to perfect the craft of climbing a rope, a day or two training with cavers would be time well spent.
A story:
Roger was very enthusiastic ascending ropes, and figured out a good system for himself and his family — essentially a caver’s rig. Roger was also hard of hearing, a condition exasperated by the background noise of a wet and flowing canyon.
We were in a canyon, a flowing water canyon, and completed a 30′ rappel which for some reason did not pull, so someone had to go back up. I don’t remember it being risky, so it was not a question of risk. Roger saw his opportunity to contribute, spoke up, and started digging his ascending kit out of his pack, and setting it up on his harness and body to be ready to climb the rope. As he completed preparations he turned around… to find me pulling over the top of the rope climb.
Now, the point of this story is NOT that I am such an a** for robbing Roger of a chance to shine; but that the rare rope climb required in a canyoneering environment can be dealt with expeditiously by simple, lightweight tools and knowing how to use them.
We have quite a few people that come to canyoneering from caving. You can reveal this bit of their background by lifting their pack – for the first year or two, cavers tend to bring their 3-4 lb ascending kit with them in canyons “just in case”. At some point they realize there is very little point in carrying heavy, expensive and bulky tools for a task that can be achieved just slightly less efficiently by light, not expensive and tiny tools — and that hopefully only need happen on very rare occasions.
Therefore, may I suggest that those seeking to perfect the craft of climbing ropes follow the good advice offered by our caving friends here. For canyoneers, a much, much, much simpler rig is in order, and practice. Steady practice, until the motions are learned and one can set up on rope without having to figure it out each time.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “kuenn_k2” wrote:
> Certainly the NSS has a plethora of experience in this area and observing the different climbing systems can help one decide which one might be right for them. If a local grotto doesn’t offer the expertise there are other sources, not the least of which is Allen Padgett and Bruce Smith’s book “On Rope”. However, as has already been stated multiple times in this discussion (and here goes another) you’ve gotta spend time doing this stuff in a controlled environment to determine the best fit for you…and setting up this enviro can be as easy as your backyard.
When prepping for a long climb or training I use a setup in my horse barn (could be a tree, garage, basketball goal or even your great room; and yes I’ve seen such setups in each of these venues… but I digress), basically what you need is about 10 feet clearance. My barn setup consists of a pulley at top and a belay device at floor level. Thread in your longest rope, have someone belay and “voila” start practice climbing (tie a figure eight knot in the end of the rope in case your belay partner gets distracted). You’re basically climbing in place, i.e. “treadmill” climbing. And with a slight variation you can accomplish this without a belay partner. My wife and daughter tired quickly of coming to the barn in the wee-morning hours so my treadmill now incorporates a self-belay system which offers zero interference to the practice climb.
In response to Lee’s acute observation:
“I have watched canyoneers in workshops try in vain to ascend with all sorts of systems. They are too top heavy or not strong enough for the system they created.”
In my experience this embodies the most over-looked element of a “proper” climbing system. The upper torso has to be attached to the rope via some sort of chest-harness apparatus to reduce and even eliminate (yes, this is possible with some systems) the need for upper body strength.
There are 4 basic climbing systems that NSS members utilize: Frog, Mitchell, Texas and Rope-Walker. There are many subtle refinements in each of these four systems but I’ve yet to see a climbing system that eventually didn’t tie back to one of them. From my experience Frog is the least weighty and Rope-walker is “hands-down” the most efficient – the draw-back is it’s weightier. My back wont hold up to frogging so I personally prefer the rope-walker; will gladly sacrifice the extra pound or two for efficiency…i.e. climbing 100 feet in under a minute… and I’m over 50 around 190 (again I digress/boast)
>
> >
kuenn_k2
For the record, I’ve “condescended” to a 9+ mil in the canyons, however I still lug my 11s when I’m in the dark… well, most of the time.
I agree we are guilty of carrying waaay too much gear and our systems can be rather bulky, alas, when you’re forced to ascend every time you descend…
Fair warning, be careful when playing with cavers, if we think you’re pack is looking rather wimpy, you may discover some extra ballast at the end of the day…”rock it”!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, jabridaka@… wrote:
After 10 years of doing canyons I started caving too. Ascending is no longer feared and I am working on getting them to use less gear. That damn 11mm rope is a bitch to lug around. Also after caving you will never again be afraid to rap in the dark.
—– Original Message —– > From: “Felicia” Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] TECH: Ascenders
ÂÂ
> Earlier this spring I was a guest at a cavers practice session. I was in awe of the equipment and their techniques. The experience was enlightening and informative. They do have a lot of gear.
Felicia
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 29, 2012, at 10:33 AM, “TomJones” < ratagonia@... > wrote:
> If one is attempting to perfect the craft of climbing a rope, a day or two training with cavers would be time well spent.
A story:
Roger was very enthusiastic ascending ropes, and figured out a good system for himself and his family — essentially a caver’s rig. Roger was also hard of hearing, a condition exasperated by the background noise of a wet and flowing canyon.
We were in a canyon, a flowing water canyon, and completed a 30′ rappel which for some reason did not pull, so someone had to go back up. I don’t remember it being risky, so it was not a question of risk. Roger saw his opportunity to contribute, spoke up, and started digging his ascending kit out of his pack, and setting it up on his harness and body to be ready to climb the rope. As he completed preparations he turned around… to find me pulling over the top of the rope climb.
Now, the point of this story is NOT that I am such an a** for robbing Roger of a chance to shine; but that the rare rope climb required in a canyoneering environment can be dealt with expeditiously by simple, lightweight tools and knowing how to use them.
We have quite a few people that come to canyoneering from caving. You can reveal this bit of their background by lifting their pack – for the first year or two, cavers tend to bring their 3-4 lb ascending kit with them in canyons “just in case”. At some point they realize there is very little point in carrying heavy, expensive and bulky tools for a task that can be achieved just slightly less efficiently by light, not expensive and tiny tools — and that hopefully only need happen on very rare occasions.
Therefore, may I suggest that those seeking to perfect the craft of climbing ropes follow the good advice offered by our caving friends here. For canyoneers, a much, much, much simpler rig is in order, and practice. Steady practice, until the motions are learned and one can set up on rope without having to figure it out each time.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “kuenn_k2” wrote:
> Certainly the NSS has a plethora of experience in this area and observing the different climbing systems can help one decide which one might be right for them. If a local grotto doesn’t offer the expertise there are other sources, not the least of which is Allen Padgett and Bruce Smith’s book “On Rope”. However, as has already been stated multiple times in this discussion (and here goes another) you’ve gotta spend time doing this stuff in a controlled environment to determine the best fit for you…and setting up this enviro can be as easy as your backyard.
When prepping for a long climb or training I use a setup in my horse barn (could be a tree, garage, basketball goal or even your great room; and yes I’ve seen such setups in each of these venues… but I digress), basically what you need is about 10 feet clearance. My barn setup consists of a pulley at top and a belay device at floor level. Thread in your longest rope, have someone belay and “voila” start practice climbing (tie a figure eight knot in the end of the rope in case your belay partner gets distracted). You’re basically climbing in place, i.e. “treadmill” climbing. And with a slight variation you can accomplish this without a belay partner. My wife and daughter tired quickly of coming to the barn in the wee-morning hours so my treadmill now incorporates a self-belay system which offers zero interference to the practice climb.
In response to Lee’s acute observation:
“I have watched canyoneers in workshops try in vain to ascend with all sorts of systems. They are too top heavy or not strong enough for the system they created.”
In my experience this embodies the most over-looked element of a “proper” climbing system. The upper torso has to be attached to the rope via some sort of chest-harness apparatus to reduce and even eliminate (yes, this is possible with some systems) the need for upper body strength.
There are 4 basic climbing systems that NSS members utilize: Frog, Mitchell, Texas and Rope-Walker. There are many subtle refinements in each of these four systems but I’ve yet to see a climbing system that eventually didn’t tie back to one of them. From my experience Frog is the least weighty and Rope-walker is “hands-down” the most efficient – the draw-back is it’s weightier. My back wont hold up to frogging so I personally prefer the rope-walker; will gladly sacrifice the extra pound or two for efficiency…i.e. climbing 100 feet in under a minute… and I’m over 50 around 190 (again I digress/boast)
>
> >
jabridaka@comcast.net
After 10 years of doing canyons I started caving too. Ascending is no longer feared and I am working on getting them to use less gear. That damn 11mm rope is a bitch to lug around. Also after caving you will never again be afraid to rap in the dark.
—– Original Message —– From: “Felicia” canyoncaper@yahoo.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 12:46:16 PM Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] TECH: Ascenders
ÂÂ
Earlier this spring I was a guest at a cavers practice session. I was in awe of the equipment and their techniques. The experience was enlightening and informative. They do have a lot of gear.
Felicia
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 29, 2012, at 10:33 AM, “TomJones” < ratagonia@gmail.com If one is attempting to perfect the craft of climbing a rope, a day or two training with cavers would be time well spent.
A story:
Roger was very enthusiastic ascending ropes, and figured out a good system for himself and his family — essentially a caver’s rig. Roger was also hard of hearing, a condition exasperated by the background noise of a wet and flowing canyon.
We were in a canyon, a flowing water canyon, and completed a 30′ rappel which for some reason did not pull, so someone had to go back up. I don’t remember it being risky, so it was not a question of risk. Roger saw his opportunity to contribute, spoke up, and started digging his ascending kit out of his pack, and setting it up on his harness and body to be ready to climb the rope. As he completed preparations he turned around… to find me pulling over the top of the rope climb.
Now, the point of this story is NOT that I am such an a** for robbing Roger of a chance to shine; but that the rare rope climb required in a canyoneering environment can be dealt with expeditiously by simple, lightweight tools and knowing how to use them.
We have quite a few people that come to canyoneering from caving. You can reveal this bit of their background by lifting their pack – for the first year or two, cavers tend to bring their 3-4 lb ascending kit with them in canyons “just in case”. At some point they realize there is very little point in carrying heavy, expensive and bulky tools for a task that can be achieved just slightly less efficiently by light, not expensive and tiny tools — and that hopefully only need happen on very rare occasions.
Therefore, may I suggest that those seeking to perfect the craft of climbing ropes follow the good advice offered by our caving friends here. For canyoneers, a much, much, much simpler rig is in order, and practice. Steady practice, until the motions are learned and one can set up on rope without having to figure it out each time.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “kuenn_k2” wrote:
Certainly the NSS has a plethora of experience in this area and observing the different climbing systems can help one decide which one might be right for them. If a local grotto doesn’t offer the expertise there are other sources, not the least of which is Allen Padgett and Bruce Smith’s book “On Rope”. However, as has already been stated multiple times in this discussion (and here goes another) you’ve gotta spend time doing this stuff in a controlled environment to determine the best fit for you…and setting up this enviro can be as easy as your backyard.
When prepping for a long climb or training I use a setup in my horse barn (could be a tree, garage, basketball goal or even your great room; and yes I’ve seen such setups in each of these venues… but I digress), basically what you need is about 10 feet clearance. My barn setup consists of a pulley at top and a belay device at floor level. Thread in your longest rope, have someone belay and “voila” start practice climbing (tie a figure eight knot in the end of the rope in case your belay partner gets distracted). You’re basically climbing in place, i.e. “treadmill” climbing. And with a slight variation you can accomplish this without a belay partner. My wife and daughter tired quickly of coming to the barn in the wee-morning hours so my treadmill now incorporates a self-belay system which offers zero interference to the practice climb.
In response to Lee’s acute observation:
“I have watched canyoneers in workshops try in vain to ascend with all sorts of systems. They are too top heavy or not strong enough for the system they created.”
In my experience this embodies the most over-looked element of a “proper” climbing system. The upper torso has to be attached to the rope via some sort of chest-harness apparatus to reduce and even eliminate (yes, this is possible with some systems) the need for upper body strength.
There are 4 basic climbing systems that NSS members utilize: Frog, Mitchell, Texas and Rope-Walker. There are many subtle refinements in each of these four systems but I’ve yet to see a climbing system that eventually didn’t tie back to one of them. From my experience Frog is the least weighty and Rope-walker is “hands-down” the most efficient – the draw-back is it’s weightier. My back wont hold up to frogging so I personally prefer the rope-walker; will gladly sacrifice the extra pound or two for efficiency…i.e. climbing 100 feet in under a minute… and I’m over 50 around 190 (again I digress/boast)