Those who have taken ACA courses have learned some advanced techniques that can be difficult with a climbing harness with a belay loop (i.e. BD Bod). The belay loop IS strong enough to tie into directly. In fact, is is stronger than the harness itself. But once loaded, it becomes difficult to clip into with additional carabiners. If you clip a carabiner directly through the waist belt and leg loop, it is likely to become cross-loaded against the gate. This is NOT recommended by any manufacturer. They recommend tying directly into the belt and leg loop with a climbing rope, but NOT with a carabiner.
During a recent course, one of our students, Phillip, was ogling my Delta (triangular) rapide and asked if it would work on his climbing harness. Probably. But there is a better choice; a D-shaped maillon rapide, referred to as a “half moon”. Petzl sells them for connecting the “ears” of their caving harnesses. I checked with Hank (Petzl’s technical info guru) and he confirmed that they will work. You can view them, along with strength figures, at:
http://www.wichard-usa.com/ClimbingSafety/ maillon_rapide/index.htm
So … you can use your belay loop for a carabiner with rappelling device, and install a half-moon rapide connecting your waist belt and leg loops. Attach your cows tail (i.e. Energyca/Spelergyca) directly to the half-moon and use it as a rigid tie-in point when performing transitions, etc.
Rich
Koen
Another benefit to a rigid connection point like the half-moon rapide > is that it remains open, so you can connect/disconnect from it, even > when it’s loaded.
I’m not a big fan of rigid tie-in points on several canyon belts on the market. The metal ring rubs through the webbing after serious use. Putting the big half-moon rapide in a tie-in point made of webbing (like the Petzl Niagara) gives you the same advantages but not the drawbacks of a rigid tie-in, it moves around so the wear is spread but you always got a connection point that stays open under loads.
Koen
rcwildone
Broadband response to a few private emails:
Yes, it is possible to girth hitch a runner or daisy chain directly to the waist belt and leg loops of a climbing harness. And it will work fine if all you want is a simple teather.
However, there are several techniques that require a cows tail with two different length loops. A cows tail (like the Petzl Energyca/Spelergica) requires a carabiner or rapide for connection to the harness.
Another benefit to a rigid connection point like the half-moon rapide is that it remains open, so you can connect/disconnect from it, even when it’s loaded.
Rich
rcwildone
Ralph,
I have Petzl Attache carabiners on both ends of my cowstail. HMS carabiners are much more versatile than D’s. There was a bit of cursing involved, but once they’re in, they’re in, and they stay in the correct position due to the snug fit.
Rich
hmoon@petzl.com
>Now that we know how to attach the cow’s tail to the harness, tell us >what size carabiner fits through the ends of the cow’s tail with the >”string” attached. I think it would have to be a pretty small diameter >carabiner. I sent a message to Petzl, but I have not had a response.
There should be no trouble fitting any sport carabiner to the (Petzl) cowstail with the STRING.
FYI, there is a new, larger size of STRING available for wider/thicker webbing and/or carabiners.
hank
Tom Jones
It also helps to wet the system before inserting the crab. A little lubrication goes a long way.
Personally, I use small screw-locking D carabiners on my Energica. Seem to work fine in most-all situations, and saves weight on something I carry all the time.
Tom
— In canyons@y…, “Koen” wrote: > Almost any carabiner will fit with a bit of > fumbling/cursing . “Keylock” type carabiners are the easiest, not > only for fitting, but in use as well. > Tip: warm (body temp.) the rubber thingy first before trying to get > the carabiner in, you need all the elasticity you can get.
— In canyons@y…, “Ralph Whittle” wrote:
Now that we know how to attach the cow’s tail to the harness, tell > us
what size carabiner fits through the ends of the cow’s tail with the
“string” attached. I think it would have to be a pretty small > diameter
carabiner. I sent a message to Petzl, but I have not had a > response.
Ralph (R.D.) Whittle
During a recent course, one of our students, Phillip, was ogling my
Delta (triangular) rapide and asked if it would work on his > climbing
harness. Probably. But there is a better choice; a D-shaped maillon
rapide, referred to as a “half moon”. Petzl sells them for > connecting
the “ears” of their caving harnesses. I checked with Hank (Petzl’s
technical info guru) and he confirmed that they will work. You can
view them, along with strength figures, at:
http://www.wichard- usa.com/ClimbingSafety/maillon_rapide/index.htm
So … you can use your belay loop for a carabiner with rappelling
device, and install a half-moon rapide connecting your waist belt > and
leg loops. Attach your cows tail (i.e. Energyca/Spelergyca) > directly
to the half-moon and use it as a rigid tie-in point when performing
transitions, etc.
Koen
Almost any carabiner will fit with a bit of fumbling/cursing . “Keylock” type carabiners are the easiest, not only for fitting, but in use as well. Tip: warm (body temp.) the rubber thingy first before trying to get the carabiner in, you need all the elasticity you can get.
— In canyons@y…, “Ralph Whittle” wrote: > Now that we know how to attach the cow’s tail to the harness, tell us > what size carabiner fits through the ends of the cow’s tail with the > “string” attached. I think it would have to be a pretty small diameter > carabiner. I sent a message to Petzl, but I have not had a response.
Ralph (R.D.) Whittle
During a recent course, one of our students, Phillip, was ogling my > Delta (triangular) rapide and asked if it would work on his climbing > harness. Probably. But there is a better choice; a D-shaped maillon > rapide, referred to as a “half moon”. Petzl sells them for connecting > the “ears” of their caving harnesses. I checked with Hank (Petzl’s > technical info guru) and he confirmed that they will work. You can > view them, along with strength figures, at:
http://www.wichard-usa.com/ClimbingSafety/maillon_rapide/index.htm
> So … you can use your belay loop for a carabiner with rappelling > device, and install a half-moon rapide connecting your waist belt and > leg loops. Attach your cows tail (i.e. Energyca/Spelergyca) directly > to the half-moon and use it as a rigid tie-in point when performing > transitions, etc.
Ralph Whittle
Now that we know how to attach the cow’s tail to the harness, tell us what size carabiner fits through the ends of the cow’s tail with the “string” attached. I think it would have to be a pretty small diameter carabiner. I sent a message to Petzl, but I have not had a response.
Ralph (R.D.) Whittle
During a recent course, one of our students, Phillip, was ogling my Delta (triangular) rapide and asked if it would work on his climbing harness. Probably. But there is a better choice; a D-shaped maillon rapide, referred to as a “half moon”. Petzl sells them for connecting the “ears” of their caving harnesses. I checked with Hank (Petzl’s technical info guru) and he confirmed that they will work. You can view them, along with strength figures, at:
http://www.wichard-usa.com/ClimbingSafety/maillon_rapide/index.htm
So … you can use your belay loop for a carabiner with rappelling device, and install a half-moon rapide connecting your waist belt and leg loops. Attach your cows tail (i.e. Energyca/Spelergyca) directly to the half-moon and use it as a rigid tie-in point when performing transitions, etc.
hmoon@petzl.com
>So … you can use your belay loop for a carabiner with rappelling >device, and install a half-moon rapide connecting your waist belt and >leg loops. Attach your cows tail (i.e. Energyca/Spelergyca) directly >to the half-moon and use it as a rigid tie-in point when performing >transitions, etc.
Small addition to RC’s post: help ensure your link will not come undone: use a wrench to tighten the gate nut (recommended torque: 7 Nm).