Word on the street is that the extremely experienced guide Randall Grandstaff died by a releasable bowline failure. I’m sure he used it many, many times before and considered it very reliable, and tied and tested it very carefully. Still…
No matter how many sides on the die, if you roll it enough times you’ll get snake eyes eventually.
Tom
— In canyons@y…, “beadysee”
(After a bit more searching… Is the macrame knot the answer? I’m already familiar with using a biner block to rap on a single- > strand rope and using a thinner pull cord to retrieve the rope. > However, the way I do this, there can’t be any knots in the rope I > rap down. From what I can determine from the trip reports, they seem > to have used some sort of releasable knot, that untied when they > tugged on the pull-cord.
There’s always that releasable bowline knot…(better option than the > macreme IMHO)…but…not for this gig for me.
> I’m thinking of doing Heaps later this year. One problem is that I > don’t have a 300 ft. rope for the long rap at the end. However in > reading the old Heaps trip reports…
You might search rec.climbing and this site for the posts about the > feller in Vegas, a very experienced climber, that died using a > similar technique.
I’ve talked to one of the participants from one of the old Heaps TR’s > (In Search of the Devil’s Pit). She said they used a device which > locked on the rope and could be released with a parachute cord.
> BTW: While the idea of only having to buy 300+ ft of parachute cord > instead of 300 ft of rope (that I’ll probably only use once, maybe > twice) obviously is very appealing to me, but I’m not stupid and do > NOT plan to use any techniques that I haven’t already practiced and > that I am absolutely confident in.
Beg, borrow, steal or buy the 300 foot rope. Makes “life” so > simple…and…its really only your “life” after all…
Two large fellers tuggin’ on a thin parachute cord with a knot in it > will be close to breakin’ strength…
You “might” live thru a mistake with that last 300 foot rappel. You > need to decide if “might” is good enough…
Brian in SLC
Steve Brezovec
On a Macrame knot you have a pull strand and a rappel strand. The safety of the knot relies upon the pull strand side being unweighted until you actually want to release the knot. On a 30′ drop, the weight of the rope itself on the pull strand side is negligible. On a 300′ drop, the weight of the rope is equal to, er, well, 300′ of rope, so there’s at least a percieved risk of the weight of the rope itself being sufficient to cause the knot to fail. This could be helped by using a lighter, thinner, pull cord (eek) I suppose. Theoretically, this shouldn’t be much of an issue, since as long as the rappel strand is being tensioned, it shouldn’t be possible to pull the release strand through. But then again, the same could be said for a piton/prussik… We use macrame’s because for some of us, in some canyons, leaving no trace is important, and on certain drops, the risk involved is deemed acceptable for the payoff. Generally my criteria is that in the worst-case scenario of the knot failing, I may get hurt but I won’t die. I don’t know many people who use Macrames for kill-factor drops.
> Thanks to all who replied. Basically is confirming what I > sort off suspected. While, I’m always interested in new > technques, I tend to be very reluctant to actually try new > knots other than the “tried and true” ones for “critical” > applications (like when my life depends on it). In my mind > all knots are “guility” until proven “innocent.” > New question: Why use releasable knots like the macrame knot > AT ALL? From what I understand, the people who use this knot > tend to use it for short drops. But why would I use this knot > for 30 feet or even 15 feet if I don’t trust it for 300 feet? > (The flip side is that if I absolutely trusted it for 30 > feet, I wouldn’t have any problem using it for 300 feet, > unless there was something about the knot that made it > inherently more likely to prematurely release on a longer rap.) > I dont’ know how true it is, but I remember reading somewhere > that the ‘LD-50″ (so to speak) for falling was 30 feet, > meaning that about half of the people who fall 30 feet die as > a result of their injuries. Even if that’s not true, I think > it’s not unlikely to get seriously hurt or killed on short > drops. So if the macrame knot is suspect, why use it for > anything? The releasable webbing method (using a pull cord > seems a lot safer.
deanemt
The issue with using a knot like the macrame isn’t about whether or not it would hold you. I have no doubt in my mind that it would hold just fine on the final Heap’s rap. The issue is whether or not it would release once you are finished. Once it has been loaded, the macrame can be difficult to release even on short drops. Combine that with an awkward pull and 300′ of rope weight, and I’m willing to bet that it would be impossible to release.
As to why people use releasable knots, I’m sure there’s dozens of reasons. One that comes to mind is that it is an effective way to do a canyon clean. No webbing, no bolts, no slings, no nothing left behind. The macrame also has the advantage of not having to pull several feet of rope around the anchor, only a few inches to a couple of feet, depending on the anchor that you tie it around. This is nice because there is no added friction on the pull, and it doesn’t allow the rope to carve grooves in sandstone, tree bark, etc….
Dean
Christopher Jain
Thanks to all who replied. Basically is confirming what I sort off suspected. While, I’m always interested in new technques, I tend to be very reluctant to actually try new knots other than the “tried and true” ones for “critical” applications (like when my life depends on it). In my mind all knots are “guility” until proven “innocent.” New question: Why use releasable knots like the macrame knot AT ALL? From what I understand, the people who use this knot tend to use it for short drops. But why would I use this knot for 30 feet or even 15 feet if I don’t trust it for 300 feet? (The flip side is that if I absolutely trusted it for 30 feet, I wouldn’t have any problem using it for 300 feet, unless there was something about the knot that made it inherently more likely to prematurely release on a longer rap.) I dont’ know how true it is, but I remember reading somewhere that the ‘LD-50″ (so to speak) for falling was 30 feet, meaning that about half of the people who fall 30 feet die as a result of their injuries. Even if that’s not true, I think it’s not unlikely to get seriously hurt or killed on short drops. So if the macrame knot is suspect, why use it for anything? The releasable webbing method (using a pull cord seems a lot safer.
ratagonia tom@jrat.com> wrote: Word on the street is that the extremely experienced guide Randall Grandstaff died by a releasable bowline failure. I’m sure he used it many, many times before and considered it very reliable, and tied and tested it very carefully. Still…
No matter how many sides on the die, if you roll it enough times you’ll get snake eyes eventually.
Tom
— In canyons@y…, “beadysee” wrote: > — In canyons@y…, Christopher Jain wrote:
(After a bit more searching… Is the macrame knot the answer?
There’s always that releasable bowline knot…(better option than the > macreme IMHO)…but…not for this gig for me.
> I’m thinking of doing Heaps later this year. One problem is that I > don’t have a 300 ft. rope for the long rap at the end. However in > reading the old Heaps trip reports…
> I’m already familiar with using a biner block to rap on a single- > strand rope and using a thinner pull cord to retrieve the rope. > However, the way I do this, there can’t be any knots in the rope I > rap down. From what I can determine from the trip reports, they seem > to have used some sort of releasable knot, that untied when they > tugged on the pull-cord.
You might search rec.climbing and this site for the posts about the > feller in Vegas, a very experienced climber, that died using a > similar technique.
I’ve talked to one of the participants from one of the old Heaps TR’s > (In Search of the Devil’s Pit). She said they used a device which > locked on the rope and could be released with a parachute cord.
> BTW: While the idea of only having to buy 300+ ft of parachute cord > instead of 300 ft of rope (that I’ll probably only use once, maybe > twice) obviously is very appealing to me, but I’m not stupid and do > NOT plan to use any techniques that I haven’t already practiced and > that I am absolutely confident in.
Beg, borrow, steal or buy the 300 foot rope. Makes “life” so > simple…and…its really only your “life” after all…
Two large fellers tuggin’ on a thin parachute cord with a knot in it > will be close to breakin’ strength…
You “might” live thru a mistake with that last 300 foot rappel. You > need to decide if “might” is good enough…
Brian in SLC
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