— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones”
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy”
We did Not Mindbender, a few years ago with Todd and Steph. At
the last rap there was a bolt on the wall to the canyon left that
was recently removed. We rappeled from a mess of purple, yellow
webbing on a deadman backed up with red and green webbing attached
to a knot chock.
Interesting. Interesting that the elite of the Arizona Canyoneering > Community would leave such a mess behind. I encourage you, in the > future, to clean up messes when you come upon them, rather than leave > them as a mess, even when canyoning outside your “sphere of influence”.
Bolt was removed on this trip: > http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0511notm/index.htm
(note: text modified today to make it clear that I removed the bolt).
That was a hilarious week or two. We went down the canyon and removed the long lengths of webbing and crap and placed the webbing around the chokestone. The chokestone was pre-existing but lacked any anchor material around (aborted mission??). The bolt was already in place.
We came back a week or two later and the bolt had been removed and replaced by a deadman. We wondered who the masked man was and found out a few weeks later after returning to civilization from weeks exploring the roost. Shows how fast an anchor and ethic can oscillate, especially in the roost.
I still enjoy the praise of that anchor to this day. A story I will tell my grandchildren when I am old and crusty. That month of living out of my trailer down by the spring in South Fork with friends and what is now family is one of my greatest memories of the adventures I was lucky enough to have and exploit for some many years.
While my canyoneering adventures have drastically decreased the controversy sparked by one anchor continues to this day…
Phillip
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
> I know of no one else who actively removes bolts, and states so > in public.
You may not know them but as I said before. . . we have seen removed > bolts and they were not talked about on this site. So someone is > doing it and a few have boasted of it on other media.
I know of some folks that used to, in the past, but aren’t doing slots very often. Aside from that….What other media? Point helpless me? 😉
Or maybe WITH the same ethics – you don’t know. This might have
been Matt Moore’s group, and he sets the highest standard I have
ever seen for travel in the wild. He makes it part of his guided
adventure, and people eat it up. We do the same at Zion > Adventure,
but to a lesser degree.
This is true, it could have been him. > But more and more companies are popping up and all are not going to > have ethics.
True, I’m afraid. I can’t imagine Matt with a large group. There sometimes are various college groups and the like who come on their own too. Be nice if we looked on the vehicles for logos etc. NOLS and Outward Bound are also in the equation. The fixed ropes recently left in Cheesebox were unfortunate. I cringe to think if it had been bolted at every station they fixed something. A canyon where the consensus is 3 raps, would now have 10 or more bolt stations? Would that be OK with those bolt tolerant? Bolting can be done by anyone who wants to do it, any time.
I did not know that, new information for me. Please accept my
apology for implying otherwise in a recent post.
Tom! You wouldn’t have to apologize to me! Actually it made me > laugh. I was not offended at all, but if you have any questions > about our ethics. . . ask Ram
First class operation. Downright stern and inflexible on safety issues. Very careful and ethical.
> Well I thought I made it clear that we DO build and mostly rely on > natural anchors.
You do and you did. I think Tom was guilty of not reading post that were posted after the one he was commenting on and he apologized, as he should have. You guys are great!
Not that I should have to justify our > skill or ethics to anyone. . .
Always better when others do it for you. Now that I have public pictures at last, I like helping folks put the face with the name, just in case you bump into folks “out there.” I don’t have a picture of Joe yet. Maybe some one will out him? Joe, Sara husband wrote the foreword for Todd AZ canyon book. Let me tell you, a night around the campfire with the Arizona crowd will leave you in stitches of laughter and wonder at the many adventures. Just the story of how Joe and Sara and Todd and Steph became friends will make for a happy hour. The artwork on Joe and Sara’s helmets are dead giveaways too. Sara also always checks under the hood of my car to make sure I’m taking care of all the fluids etc. Been scolded a few times. Here is Sara….And that’s is without the “H” at the end if you know what’s good for you. 😉 http://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/October2008#5267082824018261186 Ram
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote: > I think you have actually missed a potential solution from Koen here Ram. He is implying > something I had considered but never actually used. I double rap station, i.e. only using > the existing anchors to get to the real bolt on the vertical face. Would reduce grooves and > need for newbies to do extension of webbing. Might require a few more minutes of rope > work but if I dig back far enough into my mind I actually remember an efficient technique > for setting and retrieving such systems will little effort. Could actually set it up so only the > last person has to go to the intermediate anchors. Might be a plausible solution!! > Phillip
Thanks…OK, so I’m missing something here then. As some friends will tell you, I can use all the help I could get. The horizontal placement mentioned kinda threw me. So if i get this now, someone, last one, raps down the upper part, 20 + feet or so and rerigs on the lip to the vertical, pulls the upper rope, has the lower lip rap extended over the lip and raps down.
YES!! This is would work. Dilemma still remains that it is a beginner canyon and most groups (Or many if I’m being unkind) won’t or couldn’t do this, but a workable idea for sure. Apologies to all and Koen in particular for my lack of understanding. A view of the spot again with this idea in mind. http://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/SpryRopeGrooves#5252020551675531138 steeper than it looks on the one above http://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/SpryRopeGrooves#5252020569717101090 someone would have to be gentle when pulling the upper rope, but should work. How do we get compliance?
Another point, we (our viewpoint) have taken a beating on the fact that no bolts and releasable anchors make things more risky, so it is just stupid. This very reasonable solution fails in those same ways, especially in a beginner canyon. Doesn’t it? If its harder and more exposure to risk, can we expect people to do it especially when no one is looking? Sigh. R R
Koen
FYI I have your “How to Bolt in Various Kinds of Rock” posts from a > couple of years ago, in my archive and would like to point out that > you left off at Limestone and neglected to move on to the most > interesting of all; Sandstone! > We would all benefit from hearing how you would consider placing > a “good” bolt in Colorado Plateau sandstone. >
Oh, those posts , glad someone noticed !
Part of the bolt war is “thanks” to that sandstone… the only really decent way to put bolts in that is by using glue-ins. And that’s not an easy thing, nor can you rap on those right away (however… there are some ways to do that , see PS). You need a decent drill (big, rather deep holes), the glue itself is a general mess (if you ever tried stuffing a hole full of two-component glue mixed out of a tin you’ll know what I mean ;-)), glass ampoules are better, expoy guns are the best but wieldy and the glue sets in the mixing sprout between anchors (you need to take along a bunch of spare spouts).
Not something you carry around as part of your daily kit… you need to carefully plan those. But few people actually go to those lengths and just put in substandard bolts by hand. Which get pulled…
Of utmost importance is cleaning the hole between drilling and putting in the glue. And to degrease the new bolt, there’s always a tiny film of manufactering oil on new metal. And correct drilling and depth according to the type used. You got models where the bold head has to be sunk in partly, others have to be flat against the rock. Once that done a glue-in is good for many, many years, even in sandstone.
You might definitely want to put a quick link (or two, depending on the position of the bolt, see below) in the eyes to prevent dirty ropes sawing through your bolt. The idea is to put the rope in the rapides and when the metal is getting thing, you swap them – I’ve done that a lot on old bolts in one of the most heavily trafficed dry canyons regions in Europe. Good as new afterwards. Also note that a well placed glue-in is strongest when pulled along its axis. So putting a glue-in in the “normal” way at 90° with the rope direction is actually it’s weakest position. If there’s no choice buta 90° position, turn the eye sideways so that it’s horizontal: that way in case of heavy loads the bolt head bends a bit before breaking the (soft) rock at the edge or in the hole by the bending shaft. Thus supporting greater loads (but we’re already talking test lab scenario’s here, not real life loads). This osition does give the added advantage that one “wear” quick link is sufficient and positioned correctly (not hugging the rock which hampers rope pull).
But the best position is a ceiling-mounted one, a bolt that is pulled out that way isn’t pulled out literally but takes along a pyramid shaped cone of rock (when loaded with a few tonnes).
And if not glue-ins, the longest and widest expansion bolts you can find (which aren’t easy to put in neither…).
A lot depends on the rock quality, sandstone tends to have weaker spots and layers (where the canyons are !). Put any bolt in a really soft spot and it might be sticking out half an inch after some years. Bring a hammer to tap the rock to check where the soft and hard layers and spots are. In hard layers a decent expansion bolt will also do the trick, I know of really short expansion bolts in very hard sandstone which have been put in a decade ago and and keep on doing well. It has no pratical use drilling small holes in soft sandstone and putting in a short expansion bolt. You’re doing nobody a favour (except in an emergency ofcourse) by leaving behind something substandard. Better drill none but start lugging rocks and logs or start eyeing the shabby bacpacks of your partners ;-).
And bring along glue-ins next time if the canyon is really worth the while preserving as pristine as possible. If it’s a dog, leave it for the leave-no-trace-but-tons-of-webbing-and-ropegrooves folk ;-).
Koen
PS I experimented with heathing up the rock with a small propane torch before putting in glue-ins. Epoxy sets more rapidly the warmer it gets. Worked perfectly, I had to hurry to put the bolt in before the glue would set and could weigh it by the time my gear was stowed. Hard as the rock in a few minutes.
I tested that maybe a dozen times at the edge of concrete blocks in my back yard. When broken away with a hammer I could see no visual difference in the glue that was set in that fast way or one that had “cured” slowly. I contacted several brands of glue, but nobody knew or would garantee me if the polymerisation of the glue was as complete when setting in two minutes rather than 2 hours. Any chemical experts here ?
Koen
I don’t get this? It implies that bolts don’t require webbing that > needs replacing? To get over those edges you refer to, bolted stations > require webbing just as often as natural anchors do. >
Connecting bolts with webbing or chain isn’t done any more, it gives the elements more leverage on the bolts and is ugly. Just a two-bolt rap station without webbing. In the setup I describe you basically use the first station to get close to the second “real” one. A bit like cavers do.
Huh? Not following. Are you saying that a commonly done canyon without > fixed anchors is an act of self deception because all anti bolters are > fantasizing that it is a 1st descent? What? >
Correct, one of the (if not the only real) argument of the anti-bolt crowd was that they could imagine being the first down in a pristine environment. Like the permit system in Zion, that gave as a reason that groups would have their own sense of “alone-ness” instead of bumping into other people. Has this line of reasoning been abandoned ? Probably due to the large amounts of old webbing you now see as debris around tree stumps or sticking out of the sand ;-).
Clipping into a sound natural anchor..or clipping into a fixed anchor > id like….. One is driving the speed limit? The other is going 100 > MPH around a curve?? Really? And why assume it is ego that drives > others? You can’t know that. It is not a generous assumption. >
Why would an anotherways perfectly sane person spend incredible amounts of time, start dragging logs downcanyon, leave behind ridiculous amounts of perfectly good webbing as litter, bury rocks, backpacks etc ?!? If there is any other reason than chest-thumping “I did it without”, please let me know. Other reasons escape me.
I see the same phenomenon in downclimbs: sometimes people go to ridiculous lengths and risks to downclimb certain drops. I often help those out a hand from below after I rapped past them . I also know four people who broke ankles or legs by trying to follow on such downclimbs when there were perfectly good anchors on top. But those who make it can say “I did it”. Good for their ego and nothing much else. I saw that so much working as a guide: people trying to “spice up” and otherwise boring canyon. I do that too sometimes, not by trying to downclimb everything or not use bolts, but by diving under any underwater passage that I can find. Some people get their kicks jumping everything. But nobody but the “leave no trace” people try to impose their way onto others. And from what I see the leave-no-trace ethic isn’t working very well: webbing galore, rock scars… might it not be time to adapt the strategy somewhat to keep your canyons as pristine as possible ? Especially the well traveled ones ?
Could work, but one would be placing 3 guards and that means novices > going one handed and distracted over big drops placing the things, As > good a suggestion as any entertained. Better than most, in fact >
I’ve never done that Spry canyon, but on most drops you can find an irregularity or a small ridge below the ledge otherwise taking the brunt of the sawing effect when retrieving the rope. Up to the bolter to position his anchors so that it’s obvious and easy to use. But if not or comletely vertical or overhanging, a hanging switch between the acces rope and the real rope is indeed necessary. Something big enough to put the tip of a boot on is enough, but safety tethers are a must. Are they yet commonplace in the States ? That was the thing that surprised me most with US canyoneers… no or only one safety tether. I couldn’t imagine woring my way downcanyon without. Instead of teaching people how to bury backpacks one might start promoting safety tethers and their multiple uses ?
> No bolts, big ego: non-degrabable waste? Simplistic conclusions and > unkind assuming ego driven. Nice packaging though. >
For me leaving behind webbing and diturbing soil again and again is the simplistic and shortsighted solution. It solves a problem for the shortest period of time and is bad for the environment in the long run.
> Frustrated by everyone trying to win > the argument, myself included, rather than acknowledging the > complexity of the challenges that exist. Sigh. Koen, it is good to > read something of yours again. Hope all is well. > Ram >
Not trying to win this argument, I’ve given that up like 5 years ago . Just pointing out that in lots of situations it’s better to put in a bolt than to litter or put yourself at ridicilous lenghts or risks to get down somewhere “unaided”. For the good understanding, I always use natural anchors when they present themselves. But for “natural” I understand the real thing, not something manmade . And I do downclimbs for the kick of it, but when I suspect the weakest in the party can’t make it with 100% control, I get out the rope instead of putting peer pressure on him/her by downclimbing it. And thump my chest afterwards.
For the rest all is very well, pretty cold winter over here… I’m looking forward to doing tropical canyons on Cabo Verde during the International Canyon Rendez-vous at Easter ! Anyone going ?
Koen
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
Tom! You wouldn’t have to apologize to me! Actually it made me > laugh. I was not offended at all, but if you have any questions > about our ethics. . . ask Ram
As for the post about “Perhaps it is > time you guys worked on your natural anchor skills and learned how > to build, test, and rely on natural and “natural” anchors; rather > than reaching for the drill every time an obvious, convenient and > easy natural anchor does not present itself. I think it would > serve your safety to do so, as the drill does not ALWAYS offer a > safe solution.”
THIS is the paragraph I am apologizing for. At the very least to Joe, even if not necessary for you.
repeat in the same fashion, look at our Death Valley picts, all > the drops are deadman anchors!
Pretty amazing huge cairns they build out there, eh? But then again, there is so much good cairn-building material around..
> Btw are you going on Ram’s Feb trip???
Yes yes yes.
I was not aware of the Clear Creek one that you are talking > about.
Clear Creek in Escalante, Utah.
I understand bees can be trained to discourage over-use of canyons.
Tom
canyoncrazy
> I know of no one else who actively removes bolts, and states so in public.
You may not know them but as I said before. . . we have seen removed bolts and they were not talked about on this site. So someone is doing it and a few have boasted of it on other media.
> Or maybe WITH the same ethics – you don’t know. This might have > been Matt Moore’s group, and he sets the highest standard I have > ever seen for travel in the wild. He makes it part of his guided > adventure, and people eat it up. We do the same at Zion Adventure, > but to a lesser degree.
This is true, it could have been him. But more and more companies are popping up and all are not going to have ethics. One such new adventure company is in the works here in Az. They are still in the baby stage but they are planning on doing high scale treasure hunts, we were asked about some canyons and caves for the “treasure” or clues to be hidden in them. Both of us said no way and IF we heard that something was placed in a canyon or a cave WE would turn them in- strange, but they have not contacted us since. This person has left keys to a “treasure box” bolted on a boulder in Joshua tree NP. ( the NP service is aware of who and where, Now)
> I did not know that, new information for me. Please accept my > apology for implying otherwise in a recent post.
Tom! You wouldn’t have to apologize to me! Actually it made me laugh. I was not offended at all, but if you have any questions about our ethics. . . ask Ram
>The only parts of > your work I have seen are these two canyons, and they are, as you > noted on our descent, over-bolted in a few spots.
Oh yes I agree, and you know the reasons that the extra bolts were placed, multiple recon attempts and retreating, etc. and we will be cleaning up the extra bolts this year, if Joe gets some time off when I do!
As for the post about “Perhaps it is time you guys worked on your natural anchor skills and learned how to build, test, and rely on natural and “natural” anchors; rather than reaching for the drill every time an obvious, convenient and easy natural anchor does not present itself. I think it would serve your safety to do so, as the drill does not ALWAYS offer a safe solution.”
Well I thought I made it clear that we DO build and mostly rely on natural anchors. The only bolts we have placed to this date were in 2 unnamed canyons where at the time even Todd agreed in the placement. So far we have never used our emergency bolt kit, ever!
We have worked hard at learning how to canyon the “natural way” (talking about anchors here not with out clothes on Ram, stop smiling!!!) And on a very rare occasion we placed a few bolts (in our 2 canyons). Any canyon that has been done with all natural anchors we repeat in the same fashion, look at our Death Valley picts, all the drops are deadman anchors! Not that I should have to justify our skill or ethics to anyone. . . even if it is the Great Tom (picture me bowing to you with your book in hand), Btw are you going on Ram’s Feb trip???
Oh also the WCC canyons was West Clear Creek Az, X-pine. Someone placed a bolt in the double drop, as well as 2 glue-in’s in Shamrock- I was not aware of the Clear Creek one that you are talking about. The other Ut ones I have to ask Joe when he gets home what ones those were.
hank moon
ah, the rope groves of yesteryear. once mighty bastions of dacron forestude, they have dwindled to mere cord groves…er, rope thickets?
hee hee…
In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote: >> No offence Tom I love ya man, but rope groves are Ugly!!
Kurt
Doing the 95′ haircomb rap in Spry as Koen suggests, as a multi pitch rappel is an excellant idea. The problem in this particular canyon is it is done a lot and by many beginner canyoneers. Most would not have tethers or a clue how to set up a multi-pitch. I’m thinking with 2 rap stations, the lower one would be overlooked and passed by as a solution for rope grooving by the majority. But a fine idea. Something to expand on for sure. —– Original Message —– From: Koen To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:17 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: to bolt or not to bolt
I don’t have the time to check on this forum like I used to, but any bolt war sparks my interest up to the point of reading every 20th post !
All were old arguments so here are some old comments, put a bit more bluntly ;-):
– it’s pretty sick to promote “throw away” webbing instead of a decent bolt station. It promotes everything someone who loves natures abhors: leaving behind rubbish, not caring if it lands rotting away at the bottom of the creek, pond or lake or in a rubbish bin. The mere notion of leaving something again & again and deliberatly behind that’s wasted after the first flood gives me goose bumps. Taking away old webbing when you pass by does NOT make it right. It’ll end up in a dump anyway. And in the dump does not mean that it’s “gone”… A few square inches of metal on a canyon wall has a vastly greater life span and it never hurts the ecosystem in there, it only hurts the ego of some.
– going “boltless” is just a way to make easy canyons more interesting. If you get bored by canyons, proceed to the next level (more water, more extreme stemming or crawling, whatever !) but don’t impose your solution to boredom on other people. Please. If you do want the illusion of having a first descent, even if you’ve done the canyon like 20 times, do yourself and the rest of the community a favour and go find some real first descents – that’s where the real adventure is. Not by “imagining” something you know is fake. By going down a canyon over and over again with less and less gear or without pulling out a rope you’re only doing your ego a service. Heck, with my car I can take certain turns going 100 mph with my eyes closed – not kidding here. I only do that because I’m bored stiff at that moment… but I can do it over and over again, in relative safety. But do I ask every other driver to do the same… ? Try taking some new turns instead of rehashing the same old, boring one in different, more “difficult” ways. It’ll make you a better driver. Not an expert in futility.
– in one post someone states that bolting leads to very significant increases in traffic. Never was my experience, but anyway… A bit lower in the same post is stated that 6 canyons in Zion see regular traffic, 15 see sparse groups and at least 30 canyon see only one or two parties a year.
Does that mean that only 6 canyons in Zion are bolted ? Probably not, it does mean that 6 canyons are relatively close by road acces or extremely beautiful, 15 are quite a walk or very difficult but too beautiful to pass by and 30 canyons are worthless or a very, very long ways off track and/or multi-day. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Bolts alone have never, ever attracted crowds: ease of acces and exceptional beauty does.
This said: a bolt station is not something put in place lightly. It should take into account the type of bolt and drill used, rock quality, loactions prone to flood damage, ease of acces, ease & line of descent, rope/rock damage etc etc. “Authors” of ill-judged, badly put or poor quality bolts should burn in hell. If you do put in a bolt, consider it a well-tought-over work of art, to be proud of 10 years hence. You’ll do yourself and everybody after you a favour. If you can’t do that, observe & learn, take classes (if you can find any ), practice in your back yard on some rocks or concrete blocks until you can put in those few square inches of carefully choosen metal in a place where it matters for the next decade or more.
Who is brave enough to organise a bolting course in Navajo sandstone ? It would have prevented huge amounts of littering and resulted in far prettier popular canyons. I read about and saw rappel starts with horrible rope grooves… such a pity and shame on the natural anchor folk. Unavoidable ?!? (Coughing fit)
Put a bolt station on the horizontal part of the lip, extend a short line (which the last man recuperates ofcourse) just over the edge to the real rap bolt station – which is in the vertical or near vertical plane so doesn’t scar the rock when pulling the heavy/long rap rope. This is such an elementary “skill” when going down canyons with hard rock: if you don’t do that your rope will be damaged over the first lip.
But apparently a “mistery problem” in soft sandstone where guarding the integrity of the rope is a no-brainer… the rope sheat is generally stronger than the rock, so who cares where and how it rubs.
4 bolts and a minimum of rope/handling and safety tether/descender skills: zilch rope scars. No bolts, big ego: non-degrabable waste, rope gutters and bizarre contraptions only-to-be-used-by-their-inventors all over. Your choice.
Koen
————
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restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
> Who is brave enough to organise a bolting course in Navajo sandstone
? It would have prevented huge amounts of littering and resulted
in far prettier popular canyons. I read about and saw rappel starts
with horrible rope grooves… such a pity and shame on the natural
anchor folk. > Unavoidable ?!? (Coughing fit)
Put a bolt station on the horizontal part of the lip, extend a short
line (which the last man recuperates ofcourse) just over the edge to
the real rap bolt station – which is in the vertical or near vertical
plane so doesn’t scar the rock when pulling the heavy/long rap rope.
> Going to capital letters for effect. THE CANYONS WITH THE BIGGEST ROPE > GROOVES, THE LARGEST % OF CANYONS WITH ROPE GROOVES ARE IN ZION AND > ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY OFF OF BOLTS. THIS IS NOT BECAUSE BOLTS CAUSE THAT > TO HAPPEN. IT HAPPENS BECAUSE IT IS THE PLACE WITH THE MOST TRAFFIC. > IT HAPPENS BECAUSE IT IS THE PLACE WITH THE MOST NOVICES WHO ARE > UNAWARE HOW TO EXTEND ANCHORS OR TOO NERVOUS TO DO SO. IT HAS NOTHING > TO DO WITH NATURAL ANCHORS AND THE FALLACY THAT THEY ARE MORE LIKELY > TO CAUSE ROPE GROOVES. THIS IS PROPAGANDA, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. ONE MIGHT > EVEN SPECULATE, AND IT IS JUST SPECULATION, THAT SOMEONE SKILLED IN > SETTING UP NATURAL ANCHORS MIGHT, JUST MIGHT BE SKILLED ALSO IN > EXTENDING THE ANCHOR AND BEING EXPERIENCED ENOUGH TO SEND EVERYONE BUT > THE LAST PERSON OFF THE RAP WITH A COURTESY RAP. KOEN, YOU MAY HAVE > MISSED THE POSTS TALKING ABOUT SPRY CANYON AND ITS ROPE GROOVES. THIS > IS A SPOT WHERE MANY HAVE LOOKED FOR A BETTER STATION THAN THE ONES > USED NOW. NONE HAVE BEEN FOUND YET. IT IS A DROP THAT ANGLES DOWN > STEEPLY WITH SUCCESSIVE LIPS TO FINALLY GO VERTICAL. THERE ARE NASTY > GROOVES IN ALL THE LIPS. A REALLY ADVANCED GROUP COULD EXTEND WEBBING > DOWN VERY STEEPLY, 20 PLUS FEET TO THE LOWEST LIP WHERE IT GOES > VERTICAL. LAST PERSON RAP THE WEBBING AND SWITCH OVER TO THE ROPE? > SCARY BUT IN THE RANGE OF OF THE SKILL SET. BUT IN A PLACE WHERE THE > VAST MAJORITY OF DESCENDERS ARE NOVICES? COUGH, COUGH! NOT A CHANCE OF > HAPPENING. ZILCH!. NOT BLACK AND WHITE. NOT BY A LONG SHOT. >
I think you have actually missed a potential solution from Koen here Ram. He is implying something I had considered but never actually used. I double rap station, i.e. only using the existing anchors to get to the real bolt on the vertical face. Would reduce grooves and need for newbies to do extension of webbing. Might require a few more minutes of rope work but if I dig back far enough into my mind I actually remember an efficient technique for setting and retrieving such systems will little effort. Could actually set it up so only the last person has to go to the intermediate anchors. Might be a plausible solution!!
Phillip
davewyo1
Wonderful reply Koen! Thank you VERY much for your input.
Many of us here have not met you, but respect your opinion as one who has actually put in a few bolts in his/her time. BDC is much respected in the same respect(along with his incredible wit and concurrent ability to tell tales and cook an awesome bratwurst, on an open fire, at the same time).
FYI I have your “How to Bolt in Various Kinds of Rock” posts from a couple of years ago, in my archive and would like to point out that you left off at Limestone and neglected to move on to the most interesting of all; Sandstone! We would all benefit from hearing how you would consider placing a “good” bolt in Colorado Plateau sandstone. Many people are unaware of the careful considerations that go into placing a bolt. Your experience far exceeds the average American climber. Please continue with your tutorial on bolting…I implore you.
I hope that we will see your way in the end, but here in the colonies are still figuring out what really matters. I am not being condescending nor dismissive, if that’s how my comment come across. I am being serious. I think that eventually, as numbers of canyoneers multiply, we will adopt “ethics” that are much the same as on the continent.
There’s no real point to my email, except to say “Thanks”. We can always use some well-reasoned dissent. Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
I don’t have the time to check on this forum like I used to, but any > bolt war sparks my interest up to the point of reading every 20th post > !
All were old arguments so here are some old comments, put a bit more > bluntly ;-):
– it’s pretty sick to promote “throw away” webbing instead of a decent > bolt station. It promotes everything someone who loves natures abhors: > leaving behind rubbish, not caring if it lands rotting away at the > bottom of the creek, pond or lake or in a rubbish bin. The mere notion > of leaving something again & again and deliberatly behind that’s > wasted after the first flood gives me goose bumps. > Taking away old webbing when you pass by does NOT make it right. It’ll > end up in a dump anyway. And in the dump does not mean that it’s “gone”… > A few square inches of metal on a canyon wall has a vastly greater > life span and it never hurts the ecosystem in there, it only hurts the > ego of some.
– going “boltless” is just a way to make easy canyons more > interesting. If you get bored by canyons, proceed to the next level > (more water, more extreme stemming or crawling, whatever !) but don’t > impose your solution to boredom on other people. Please. > If you do want the illusion of having a first descent, even if you’ve > done the canyon like 20 times, do yourself and the rest of the > community a favour and go find some real first descents – that’s where > the real adventure is. Not by “imagining” something you know is fake. > By going down a canyon over and over again with less and less gear or > without pulling out a rope you’re only doing your ego a service. Heck, > with my car I can take certain turns going 100 mph with my eyes closed > – not kidding here. I only do that because I’m bored stiff at that > moment… but I can do it over and over again, in relative safety. > But do I ask every other driver to do the same… ? > Try taking some new turns instead of rehashing the same old, boring > one in different, more “difficult” ways. It’ll make you a better > driver. Not an expert in futility.
– in one post someone states that bolting leads to very significant > increases in traffic. Never was my experience, but anyway… > A bit lower in the same post is stated that 6 canyons in Zion see > regular traffic, 15 see sparse groups and at least 30 canyon see only > one or two parties a year.
Does that mean that only 6 canyons in Zion are bolted ? Probably not, > it does mean that 6 canyons are relatively close by road acces or > extremely beautiful, 15 are quite a walk or very difficult but too > beautiful to pass by and 30 canyons are worthless or a very, very long > ways off track and/or multi-day. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Bolts alone have never, ever attracted crowds: ease of acces and > exceptional beauty does.
This said: a bolt station is not something put in place lightly. It > should take into account the type of bolt and drill used, rock > quality, loactions prone to flood damage, ease of acces, ease & line > of descent, rope/rock damage etc etc. > “Authors” of ill-judged, badly put or poor quality bolts should burn > in hell. If you do put in a bolt, consider it a well-tought-over work > of art, to be proud of 10 years hence. You’ll do yourself and > everybody after you a favour. > If you can’t do that, observe & learn, take classes (if you can find > any ), practice in your back yard on some rocks or concrete blocks > until you can put in those few square inches of carefully choosen > metal in a place where it matters for the next decade or more.
Who is brave enough to organise a bolting course in Navajo sandstone > ? It would have prevented huge amounts of littering and resulted > in far prettier popular canyons. I read about and saw rappel starts > with horrible rope grooves… such a pity and shame on the natural > anchor folk. > Unavoidable ?!? (Coughing fit)
Put a bolt station on the horizontal part of the lip, extend a short > line (which the last man recuperates ofcourse) just over the edge to > the real rap bolt station – which is in the vertical or near vertical > plane so doesn’t scar the rock when pulling the heavy/long rap rope. > This is such an elementary “skill” when going down canyons with hard > rock: if you don’t do that your rope will be damaged over the first lip.
But apparently a “mistery problem” in soft sandstone where guarding > the integrity of the rope is a no-brainer… the rope sheat is > generally stronger than the rock, so who cares where and how it rubs.
4 bolts and a minimum of rope/handling and safety tether/descender > skills: zilch rope scars. > No bolts, big ego: non-degrabable waste, rope gutters and bizarre > contraptions only-to-be-used-by-their-inventors all over. Your choice.
Koen >
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
I don’t have the time to check on this forum like I used to, but any > bolt war sparks my interest up to the point of reading every 20th post > !
And you are missed. Being the gentleman squire/farmer these days? Kids growing up fast? Belgium ready to split in two?
> All were old arguments so here are some old comments, put a bit more > bluntly ;-): > – it’s pretty sick to promote “throw away” webbing instead of a decent > bolt station. It promotes everything someone who loves natures abhors: > leaving behind rubbish, not caring if it lands rotting away at the > bottom of the creek, pond or lake or in a rubbish bin. The mere notion > of leaving something again & again and deliberatly behind that’s > wasted after the first flood gives me goose bumps.
I don’t get this? It implies that bolts don’t require webbing that needs replacing? To get over those edges you refer to, bolted stations require webbing just as often as natural anchors do. Sometimes a little less webbing, it is true. The vast majority of webbing that gets replaced is due to it getting ratty and UV exposure. The washed away webbing can and does happen, but it is a small percentage of the total. It is not this simplistic good vs. evil or Green vs. Goon argument. Nice sound bite though
> – going “boltless” is just a way to make easy canyons more > interesting. If you get bored by canyons, proceed to the next level > (more water, more extreme stemming or crawling, whatever !) but don’t > impose your solution to boredom on other people.
Impose? We advocate to a small group of people. If you are arguing that the most commonly done canyons are better served by bolts and the scope of canyons best served that way increases as canyons are added to the list of frequently descended, that is something even the anti bolt crowd is entertaining. When they spring up in all the corners of the plateau, simply because having a bolt kit is considered a must, because no one challenged the notion that other options existed, that is a shame. I once owned a bolt kit. I got information that I needed one before it was shown to me that other options existed. We are challenging the idea that it is a tool for the front of people’s kits. Without challenge, they will be everywhere, because one guidebook author says you need one along with your geology pick. Some may think that great. Others? And be happy I never used my kit. Be very happy. Some other people who have kits out there wandering around? Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Please. > If you do want the illusion of having a first descent, even if you’ve > done the canyon like 20 times, do yourself and the rest of the > community a favour and go find some real first descents – that’s where > the real adventure is. Not by “imagining” something you know is fake.
Huh? Not following. Are you saying that a commonly done canyon without fixed anchors is an act of self deception because all anti bolters are fantasizing that it is a 1st descent? What?
> By going down a canyon over and over again with less and less gear or > without pulling out a rope you’re only doing your ego a service. Heck, > with my car I can take certain turns going 100 mph with my eyes closed > – not kidding here. I only do that because I’m bored stiff at that > moment… but I can do it over and over again, in relative safety. > But do I ask every other driver to do the same… ?
Clipping into a sound natural anchor..or clipping into a fixed anchor id like….. One is driving the speed limit? The other is going 100 MPH around a curve?? Really? And why assume it is ego that drives others? You can’t know that. It is not a generous assumption.
> – in one post someone states that bolting leads to very significant > increases in traffic. Never was my experience,
It many in areas that are popular, it likely is true. I remember being relieved and drawn to certain canyons years back, because I heard they were bolted. Whew! I can go! I knew next to nothing about natural anchors back then and less on how to drill, aside from the little instruction manual. Never occurred to us that a bolt might be bad too. Didn’t know the different types, their lengths, quality etc.. Clip and go without a care. I assume others shared and share that experience.
but anyway… > A bit lower in the same post is stated that 6 canyons in Zion see > regular traffic, 15 see sparse groups and at least 30 canyon see only > one or two parties a year.
Does that mean that only 6 canyons in Zion are bolted ? Probably not, > it does mean that 6 canyons are relatively close by road acces or > extremely beautiful, 15 are quite a walk or very difficult but too > beautiful to pass by and 30 canyons are worthless or a very, very long > ways off track and/or multi-day. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Kinda gray. A little of both, but partly correct for sure
> This said: a bolt station is not something put in place lightly.
Thank you
> Who is brave enough to organise a bolting course in Navajo sandstone > ? It would have prevented huge amounts of littering and resulted > in far prettier popular canyons. I read about and saw rappel starts > with horrible rope grooves… such a pity and shame on the natural > anchor folk. > Unavoidable ?!? (Coughing fit) > Put a bolt station on the horizontal part of the lip, extend a short > line (which the last man recuperates ofcourse) just over the edge to > the real rap bolt station – which is in the vertical or near vertical > plane so doesn’t scar the rock when pulling the heavy/long rap rope.
Going to capital letters for effect. THE CANYONS WITH THE BIGGEST ROPE GROOVES, THE LARGEST % OF CANYONS WITH ROPE GROOVES ARE IN ZION AND ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY OFF OF BOLTS. THIS IS NOT BECAUSE BOLTS CAUSE THAT TO HAPPEN. IT HAPPENS BECAUSE IT IS THE PLACE WITH THE MOST TRAFFIC. IT HAPPENS BECAUSE IT IS THE PLACE WITH THE MOST NOVICES WHO ARE UNAWARE HOW TO EXTEND ANCHORS OR TOO NERVOUS TO DO SO. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NATURAL ANCHORS AND THE FALLACY THAT THEY ARE MORE LIKELY TO CAUSE ROPE GROOVES. THIS IS PROPAGANDA, PLAIN AND SIMPLE. ONE MIGHT EVEN SPECULATE, AND IT IS JUST SPECULATION, THAT SOMEONE SKILLED IN SETTING UP NATURAL ANCHORS MIGHT, JUST MIGHT BE SKILLED ALSO IN EXTENDING THE ANCHOR AND BEING EXPERIENCED ENOUGH TO SEND EVERYONE BUT THE LAST PERSON OFF THE RAP WITH A COURTESY RAP. KOEN, YOU MAY HAVE MISSED THE POSTS TALKING ABOUT SPRY CANYON AND ITS ROPE GROOVES. THIS IS A SPOT WHERE MANY HAVE LOOKED FOR A BETTER STATION THAN THE ONES USED NOW. NONE HAVE BEEN FOUND YET. IT IS A DROP THAT ANGLES DOWN STEEPLY WITH SUCCESSIVE LIPS TO FINALLY GO VERTICAL. THERE ARE NASTY GROOVES IN ALL THE LIPS. A REALLY ADVANCED GROUP COULD EXTEND WEBBING DOWN VERY STEEPLY, 20 PLUS FEET TO THE LOWEST LIP WHERE IT GOES VERTICAL. LAST PERSON RAP THE WEBBING AND SWITCH OVER TO THE ROPE? SCARY BUT IN THE RANGE OF OF THE SKILL SET. BUT IN A PLACE WHERE THE VAST MAJORITY OF DESCENDERS ARE NOVICES? COUGH, COUGH! NOT A CHANCE OF HAPPENING. ZILCH!. NOT BLACK AND WHITE. NOT BY A LONG SHOT.
> This is such an elementary “skill” when going down canyons with hard > rock: if you don’t do that your rope will be damaged over the first lip.
But apparently a “mistery problem” in soft sandstone where guarding > the integrity of the rope is a no-brainer… the rope sheat is > generally stronger than the rock, so who cares where and how it rubs.
Could work, but one would be placing 3 guards and that means novices going one handed and distracted over big drops placing the things, As good a suggestion as any entertained. Better than most, in fact
> 4 bolts and a minimum of rope/handling and safety tether/descender > skills: zilch rope scars. > No bolts, big ego: non-degrabable waste, rope gutters and bizarre > contraptions only-to-be-used-by-their-inventors all over. Your choice. Thanks > Koen
Bolts and good skills equals zilch rope scars? in most places Natural anchors and good rope skills equals zilch rope scars? See above No bolts, big ego: non-degrabable waste? Simplistic conclusions and unkind assuming ego driven. Nice packaging though.
rope gutters and bizarre contraptions only-to-be-used-by-their-inventors all over? Yeah, pretty big reaches to nowhere…..so far. Hope someone comes up with something that solves the real problems, on a broad scale, beyond the posturing that claims easy solutions now as long as you drill. Sorry for my tone. It is not as light as I would want. Frustrated by everyone trying to win the argument, myself included, rather than acknowledging the complexity of the challenges that exist. Sigh. Koen, it is good to read something of yours again. Hope all is well. Ram
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
And everytime we argue about bolts, A KITTEN DIES!!! >
Maybe we need more bolt discussions to help eliminate the ferral cat population to drive the population of song birds back up (one of the leading causes of death is hypothesized to be cats). Thanks tom.
I think many of us may disagree with your semantics, including:
1) Suffer: landscapes can suffer, if using one of the many diverse definitions of the term. Such as “The business suffers from lack of capital.” (i.e.: to sustain injury, disadvantage, or loss).
2) “Dumbing down”: quite simply a load of crap! How hard is it to build a deadman or stack a pile of rocks? Not really all that hard mentally or physically. Time consuming, yes. Fun, often. Smarter, not likely. Seems to me that term is used all too often to justify the snickers directed at the little kids table from the “adult” table during thanksgiving.
3) “Our ethic”: see my previous note on that. I might suggest “my” or “my specific group of friend’s ethic.” While in practice I adhere to the principle of respect that Ram mentioned earlier I can’t say I actually understand it. How does “his”(generic, not directed at an individual) ethic become “ours”? Semantics I suppose, but I think it plays a powerful and at times subversive role in the operations and dynamics of the canyoneering community. Best option? Maybe, really don’t know. I think is only further confused by the complicated ideas of personal ownership/stake in the “commons.” (As discussed in Hardin, 1963)
4) “Unnecessary bolt”: seems tenuous and subjective at best. Reminds me of a Leopold quote I read the other day: “no man can say where utility begins or ends.”
While I think many of us use such terms I often amazed by the variance in their definitions, hence my points. Interesting enough it seems that our daily operations absorb such variation with little negative consequence, a fact that is probably worth greater discussion than my own counter arguments. Kinda like consensus, only different?
Phillip
nat_smale
I admit to being something of an agnostic on this thread. In general, I prefer the challenge of figuring out a natural anchor, but it doesn’t particularly bother me to see bolts in canyons (except maybe next to big obvious chockstones), and I sympathize with the argument that bolts are less of an impact than giant cairns or 90ft long slings. To answer your question about backing up bolts with meat, I do it all the time, especially single bolt anchors. Ever since my climbing days, I’ve never liked single bolt rap anchors, and would always leave other gear behind to back it up if possible. On the other hand, has anyone died rapping off an anchor that consisted of more than one bolt? Unless one of the bolts is obviously damaged/misplaced, I think the redundancy makes this is pretty safe.
Nat
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rob Heineman” wrote:
Just a couple thoughts. We frequently seem to hear these days > that “bolts are safer.” Despite the lack of empirical evidence, I > prefer natural anchors. One primary reason is that, almost > invariably, natural anchors get tested and are backed up with meat > while they are being tested. All but the last down. Can we say the > same for bolts? Not in my experience. When rapping off a cairn or > chock stone, the rappel gets backed up with meat. This provides > safety. First down, often one of the larger members (Pick me!), can > bounce test the anchor. Hard. Real time. Real results. Definite > results. “It held Rob bouncing like a crazy drunk psychopath.” > Any cairn that holds fine while I bounce on it is truckstop for any > smooth rappel.
Query: When was the last time anyone backed up a bolt anchor with > meat? Kudos to anyone who does, but I haven’ seen it. Easy enough > to do. Last rappel in Pine Creek? Use an extra rope and set up a > meat anchor. But we never do. Bolts are safe. Until they aren’t, > and somebody dies.
Bolts are often precipitously close to the drop, and not the easiest > to back up. But this doesn’t make me feel any safer. And doesn’t > mean I shouldn’t try harder to back them up.
Query: How much testing do people do on bolts? With no backup, I > don’t intentionally bounce. Smooth and easy. If the bolts pull > (with backup in place I hope), what do you do then? It’s been years > since I carried a bolt kit. Or a geo pick. So the bolts don’t get > bounce tested. And nobody knows.
I’ve had the plasure of standing on original Robbins bolts on the > Northwest Face of Halfdome. Hanging out of their holes up to an inch > or more. Hope they weren’t inch and a quarters. COuld defeinitely > have pulled them out, but then what? Totally screwed. So you clip, > pray stand, and move on. Ditto original harding bolts on the Nose > (thank heavens the last pitch has all been replaced – makes it casual > instead of a recurring nightmare.
Bottom line: nobody has ever died rappelling off of me. People have > died rappelling off of bolts. QED. I prefer natural anchors any > place they aren’t to0 hard to set up. And I am safer around them, > though I should work on that a lot harder. You as well?
Rob >
A.J.
> Query: When was the last time anyone backed up a bolt anchor with > meat? Kudos to anyone who does, but I haven’ seen it.
I inspect the bolts, and if it’s sketchy, I’ll backup the bolts as well. Usually run it through my belay device; so even if the bolt blows, I’ll be able to release some rope (and hopefully arrest the fall) rather than both of us zipping off to oblivion…
> Easy enough > to do. Last rappel in Pine Creek? Use an extra rope and set up a > meat anchor.
I’ve seen that done, but have felt quite safe with the two equalized bolt anchor there…
> But we never do. Bolts are safe. Until they aren’t, > and somebody dies.
The trick is to make sure that someone isn’t you. If everyone does that; nobody dies!
Koen
I don’t have the time to check on this forum like I used to, but any bolt war sparks my interest up to the point of reading every 20th post !
All were old arguments so here are some old comments, put a bit more bluntly ;-):
– it’s pretty sick to promote “throw away” webbing instead of a decent bolt station. It promotes everything someone who loves natures abhors: leaving behind rubbish, not caring if it lands rotting away at the bottom of the creek, pond or lake or in a rubbish bin. The mere notion of leaving something again & again and deliberatly behind that’s wasted after the first flood gives me goose bumps. Taking away old webbing when you pass by does NOT make it right. It’ll end up in a dump anyway. And in the dump does not mean that it’s “gone”… A few square inches of metal on a canyon wall has a vastly greater life span and it never hurts the ecosystem in there, it only hurts the ego of some.
– going “boltless” is just a way to make easy canyons more interesting. If you get bored by canyons, proceed to the next level (more water, more extreme stemming or crawling, whatever !) but don’t impose your solution to boredom on other people. Please. If you do want the illusion of having a first descent, even if you’ve done the canyon like 20 times, do yourself and the rest of the community a favour and go find some real first descents – that’s where the real adventure is. Not by “imagining” something you know is fake. By going down a canyon over and over again with less and less gear or without pulling out a rope you’re only doing your ego a service. Heck, with my car I can take certain turns going 100 mph with my eyes closed – not kidding here. I only do that because I’m bored stiff at that moment… but I can do it over and over again, in relative safety. But do I ask every other driver to do the same… ? Try taking some new turns instead of rehashing the same old, boring one in different, more “difficult” ways. It’ll make you a better driver. Not an expert in futility.
– in one post someone states that bolting leads to very significant increases in traffic. Never was my experience, but anyway… A bit lower in the same post is stated that 6 canyons in Zion see regular traffic, 15 see sparse groups and at least 30 canyon see only one or two parties a year.
Does that mean that only 6 canyons in Zion are bolted ? Probably not, it does mean that 6 canyons are relatively close by road acces or extremely beautiful, 15 are quite a walk or very difficult but too beautiful to pass by and 30 canyons are worthless or a very, very long ways off track and/or multi-day. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Bolts alone have never, ever attracted crowds: ease of acces and exceptional beauty does.
This said: a bolt station is not something put in place lightly. It should take into account the type of bolt and drill used, rock quality, loactions prone to flood damage, ease of acces, ease & line of descent, rope/rock damage etc etc. “Authors” of ill-judged, badly put or poor quality bolts should burn in hell. If you do put in a bolt, consider it a well-tought-over work of art, to be proud of 10 years hence. You’ll do yourself and everybody after you a favour. If you can’t do that, observe & learn, take classes (if you can find any ), practice in your back yard on some rocks or concrete blocks until you can put in those few square inches of carefully choosen metal in a place where it matters for the next decade or more.
Who is brave enough to organise a bolting course in Navajo sandstone ? It would have prevented huge amounts of littering and resulted in far prettier popular canyons. I read about and saw rappel starts with horrible rope grooves… such a pity and shame on the natural anchor folk. Unavoidable ?!? (Coughing fit)
Put a bolt station on the horizontal part of the lip, extend a short line (which the last man recuperates ofcourse) just over the edge to the real rap bolt station – which is in the vertical or near vertical plane so doesn’t scar the rock when pulling the heavy/long rap rope. This is such an elementary “skill” when going down canyons with hard rock: if you don’t do that your rope will be damaged over the first lip.
But apparently a “mistery problem” in soft sandstone where guarding the integrity of the rope is a no-brainer… the rope sheat is generally stronger than the rock, so who cares where and how it rubs.
4 bolts and a minimum of rope/handling and safety tether/descender skills: zilch rope scars. No bolts, big ego: non-degrabable waste, rope gutters and bizarre contraptions only-to-be-used-by-their-inventors all over. Your choice.
Koen
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
And one more thing. . . > I forgot to ask. How does 1 bolt damage the canyon more than some > guide companies running 15- 20 people down the canyons?
Is this an either/or proposition? Do we get to vote for either large crowds OR bolts? (Me, I’d vote for large crowds, but then again, I am a populist).
It usually turns out the other way around. Establishing bolted anchors in a canyon (“dumbing-down”) tends to make the canyon more popular (often MUCH more), and results in increased traffic, especially from non-canyoneer-types (ie, those who do not share “our ethic”).
In this case, you got me. The bolts Brian and I placed in Fry are now drawing huge crowds to enjoy this little road-side slot – or should I say road-under slot. I think this is a good place for people to enjoy canyoneering. Keeps them out of the backcountry.
Fry has a well-developed return trail. Proper LNT coaching of guests makes it possible to do all of Fry and leave no trace, other than footprints in the sand. No Crypto need be harmed making this movie.
On our vacation we passed 4 white vans all parked at different > places along the hwy. Two at Fry canyon off the bridge. One near > Bridges NP and the last was on Cedar mesa. > All the vans were packed with people and towing a small trailer of > gear. > The 2 vans at Fry canyon we counted 20 people! 20 people to hike > down a canyon? 20 people to walk back to the van over crypto soil? > How is a bolt more damaging than the herd of 20 human beings? > 20 human beings enjoying the backcountry has a purpose. Un- necessary bolts do not have a purpose.
> I have no problem with guided tours and once a year rendevous, but > human traffic alone in large groups impacts the canyon much faster > and more than one bolt placed in the canyon wall. Plants are > trampled, spiders, bugs and other small creatures are seriously > disturbed or killed. I have even seen a baby snake that was > clearly stepped on in a canyon.
And everytime we argue about bolts, A KITTEN DIES!!!
Yes, just walking around, we kill other creatures. Two spiders succumbed during my shower a few minutes ago. Bad timing (on their parts).
As wilderness activities go, canyoneering in Utah is about the least disturbance possible. We hike on slickrock and in washes. We hike in environments with a rapid turnover, so that our personal impacts are minimized. Yes, there are places where our impacts are evident and unsightly. Rope grooves in particular are a difficult impact to mitigate once started, and difficult to avoid the creation of in the first place. Judicious use of bolts can minimize rope grooving.
You forgot about all the bees we non-Arizonas kill by pulling out their stingers. Shameful!!!
> Look at the Zion canyons, no moss grows on > the walls the floor is vacant of most life. . . due to flooding, > yes some, but in Az canyons life flourished in between the > flooding and foot traffic is what kills the canyon floor. More > traffic= more damage.
The eco-systems are quite different between Zion and Arizona. Other than the main floor of Zion Canyon, what you see is pretty close to the natural state of things, in Zion.
Some of these new bolts have been placed by guided tours to make > it “safer” for their paying costumers. With eco-tourism, and the > mass population of this planet all places suffer.
True. Some have been placed by guide services. Sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. For our part, at ZAC, the canyons we use are among the most heavily used canyons in Utah. Good bolts were placed where necessary to prevent grooves from forming and to keep the canyons in the most “natural state” possible. Not really for the safety of the guests, but it certainly ends up being more convenient for guide and guest. 90% of our guiding activity takes place in two guiding venues that are not actively used by the self- guiding public.
Places cannot suffer. Suffering is a human attribute. Since we cannot directly communicate with “the places”, we do not know if they “suffer”, or if they “celebrate the joy they bring to other beings”.
> Our NP are being > loved to death, canyons are not far behind- lucky for us we are > still a small group who frequent canyons. But unlike cavers, caves > are easily kept secret, canyons can not- they appear on maps. So > people taking advantage of the outdoors can easily lead tours down > published canyons and will place new bolts. How do we stop that? > Now you are sounding like an anti-bolt activist! Yeah. You go girl! Glad to have you on-board!
How do we stop it? We persuade “them” that bolts are unnecessary. We cajole. We discuss, sometimes with elegance and wit, sometimes sadly lacking such dignity. When people place unnecessary bolts, some of us go and remove them, preferably right away.
Besides, very few of the canyons absorb most of the traffic. From a land management point of view, this is a very good thing. The 50th person through a canyon has a lot less impact than the 5th. The 10,000th person through the Subway has a lot less impact than the 20th person through Observation Point Canyon. Of the 60 canyons I have done in Zion, only 5-6 see regular traffic, another 10-15 sparse traffic, and at least half only one or two parties a year at most. As I type, Heaps and Imlay are renewing themselves and flushing out most signs of human passage, as snowmelt runs down them and spews out the end.
Personally, I think the National Parks are doing just fine. Zion is “very popular” – but most of the backcountry remains in a natural condition and is rarely visited. That Spearhead Canyon – hard to get a permit for that one! But more seriously – Right Fork, Corral Hollow, Deep Creek, Goose Creek – these canyons rarely get done. They are protected by their wilderness nature – too much effort for most people. Even Imlay and Heaps don’t get done all that much.
Loving to death? Subway, Narrows, Spry, Pine Creek, Mystery – perhaps. But they are resilient, and resist our attempts to tame them, short of power tools. High use areas such as these show impacts. So? It diminishes, but does not negate their charms. If it did, not so many people would do them, would they?
Tom
Rob Heineman
Just a couple thoughts. We frequently seem to hear these days that “bolts are safer.” Despite the lack of empirical evidence, I prefer natural anchors. One primary reason is that, almost invariably, natural anchors get tested and are backed up with meat while they are being tested. All but the last down. Can we say the same for bolts? Not in my experience. When rapping off a cairn or chock stone, the rappel gets backed up with meat. This provides safety. First down, often one of the larger members (Pick me!), can bounce test the anchor. Hard. Real time. Real results. Definite results. “It held Rob bouncing like a crazy drunk psychopath.” Any cairn that holds fine while I bounce on it is truckstop for any smooth rappel.
Query: When was the last time anyone backed up a bolt anchor with meat? Kudos to anyone who does, but I haven’ seen it. Easy enough to do. Last rappel in Pine Creek? Use an extra rope and set up a meat anchor. But we never do. Bolts are safe. Until they aren’t, and somebody dies.
Bolts are often precipitously close to the drop, and not the easiest to back up. But this doesn’t make me feel any safer. And doesn’t mean I shouldn’t try harder to back them up.
Query: How much testing do people do on bolts? With no backup, I don’t intentionally bounce. Smooth and easy. If the bolts pull (with backup in place I hope), what do you do then? It’s been years since I carried a bolt kit. Or a geo pick. So the bolts don’t get bounce tested. And nobody knows.
I’ve had the plasure of standing on original Robbins bolts on the Northwest Face of Halfdome. Hanging out of their holes up to an inch or more. Hope they weren’t inch and a quarters. COuld defeinitely have pulled them out, but then what? Totally screwed. So you clip, pray stand, and move on. Ditto original harding bolts on the Nose (thank heavens the last pitch has all been replaced – makes it casual instead of a recurring nightmare.
Bottom line: nobody has ever died rappelling off of me. People have died rappelling off of bolts. QED. I prefer natural anchors any place they aren’t to0 hard to set up. And I am safer around them, though I should work on that a lot harder. You as well?
Rob
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
Sorry but I really needed to say this. . .
I understand the idea that bolts are unsightly but arguing that > sandstone groves are not and aren’t as bad is just ridiculous! > No offence Tom I love ya man, but rope groves are Ugly!!
I have to disagree that one bolt is more destructive and ugly than > many rope groves or 100’s of feet of trashed webbing.
Mmmm, I guess I should craft my posts more carefully. These are not positions I hold or espouse, or have ever heard anyone else espouse, publicly or privately. Perhaps I have an evil twin wandering around here in cyber-space…
Tom
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
That was a hilarious week or two. We went down the canyon and removed the long > lengths of webbing and crap and placed the webbing around the chokestone. The > chokestone was pre-existing but lacked any anchor material around (aborted mission??). > The bolt was already in place. >
More interesting. The rock had been hand-placed, because it was not there on previous trips. I’m thinking someone stuck it in there, but could not figure out how to rig it to pull the right way (ie, the way that provides security).
Nice job, youth.
T