— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones”
I was not aware of the Clear Creek one that you are talking
about.
Clear Creek in Escalante, Utah.
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0809clear/index.htm
> I understand bees can be trained to discourage over-use of canyons. > Tom
The inside joke here is……they invite us outsiders down to Zona for some fun and all the people from outside the state seem to get multiple bee stings. The locals? Nothing(well Todd got a few to be polite)!! I think they lead folks into the hives, knowing it is always the 2nd and 3rd person in the line that gets hit hardest. Aaron got 6 stings on 2 different days. The Emperor was shown no respect and endured 4, several years later. Me? So far so good. ;-) The Emperor’s forearm.. http://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/October2008#5267082805832090370
adkramoo
I don’t know. I kind of am willing to embrace some of the views directed at “natural anchor folks,” but don’t have nearly as harsh a view of the bolters as i would be given credit for here. Oh yes, i will argue the points, spar and all, but i am not so far from Todd’s view that “there are more important things.” It probably only seems that I care so much more. Oh I believe what i believe and all, but i also see my views changing. When the argument is well presented, my view evolves. Now that bolter crowd? Change their view? HA! I HATE them and want to eat their children (Mike Tyson Quote). They are fighting a position like my son just did defending Federalism vs. Unity in national governments. Kidding aside and I was kidding, I enjoy the back and forth. Its good exercise and every now and then I “see ” it differently. I hope…”THEM” do too. 😉
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
> It is the same with beginer canyoners who do not know any better.
Last year we saw 7 new bolts pop up in Az and Ut canyons. Some so
new the rock dust was still under the new bolt.
People are going to bolt to make it easy for them and if they have a
paying guided group they are more likely to add “safety” bolts.
I think the most interesting enlightenment of this thread is how > easily we categorize the styles and techniques of “others.” The list > as I have figured from this thread thus far:
1)Guide companies: Groups of bolt happy entrepreneurs too distracted > by the cash trees in the desert to not step on countless animals. > Have no sense of how many people is too many for a particular canyon. > Drive big white vans. (Having guided for Matt and a few others the > equations is different for each canyon. We would take 20-40 people > into some canyon and only a couple into others).
2)Bolters/Bolt users: Careless imbeciles who lack any care for > aesthetics, conservation, or ethics. People who have an endless > supply of cash and time to bolt whatever canyons and drops they want > for “unnecessary” reasons. The people who “dumb-down” canyons, as if > such a thing is possible. Selfish and intolerant (see: Natural Anchor > Advocates).
3)Natural Anchor Advocates: Delusional folks more focused on some > unobtainable aesthetic style than reality, which are proposed as > antipodal. Always carry thousands of yards of webbing to litter the > desert as well as crowbars and some form of “putty” to fill holes. > Selfish and intolerant (see: Bolters/Bolt users).
4)Bolt discussion participants: Kitten killers. (I have come up with > the positives, let me know if there are any negatives).
Sound like a fair synopsis? Please add more comments to make the > pinatas larger and easier targets for the thrusting of our Leki poles.
What I know I have reinforced is that overly prescriptive methodology > and philosophies are best employed to further some personal notion of > “best” rather than accurately protect both the environment and the > human experience. Is one form of anchor building inherently safer > than another (evaluation, placement, etc)? Does one have an > inherently larger impact on the recreational experience or landscape? > Do we really employ such static ideas for such dynamic environments? > Can various ethics and practices coexist? I hope so but only time > will tell.
Off soapbox…let the kittens, spiders, ethics, and wilderness > experiences continue to die. Ding, ding.
Phillip >
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote: can’t imagine Matt with a large group.
I’m pretty sure Matt does large groups. Perhaps him-of-merry- > appendages could clarify. >
Tom, didn’t anyone tell it is impolite to mention the appendages of others publicly?
Like most organizations we tried to accommodate groups of various size when we could and where it was appropriate. Twenty was not the average but not uncommon (Let me tell you, it is hard to talk down a group of twenty Hare Krishnas living in a bus together when they get the mind set on hiking barefoot through the entire length of a canyon). Midevil chamber was the normal candidate, which we took some LARGE groups down (had to turn away a drunk Turkish man in front of his thirty friends, on a trip with Marboro Adventures, from rappeling after Matt convinced him I was interested in working in his gay bar. The things guides do to harrass and entertain each other. Did I ever tell you Matt was in a boyband called “hot pants” that he used to support himself until the guide thing took off. Really, ask him.).
If you want to get good at simul rappeling go work with Matt. After talking down thirty newbies down a rope draped across an arch it becomes normal.
Oops, did I get distracted from you original question Tom?
Phillip (who never claims any appendage other than his feet are happy, I am a good southern boy)
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
> It is the same with beginer canyoners who do not know any better. > Last year we saw 7 new bolts pop up in Az and Ut canyons. Some so > new the rock dust was still under the new bolt. > People are going to bolt to make it easy for them and if they have a > paying guided group they are more likely to add “safety” bolts. >
I think the most interesting enlightenment of this thread is how easily we categorize the styles and techniques of “others.” The list as I have figured from this thread thus far:
1)Guide companies: Groups of bolt happy entrepreneurs too distracted by the cash trees in the desert to not step on countless animals. Have no sense of how many people is too many for a particular canyon. Drive big white vans. (Having guided for Matt and a few others the equations is different for each canyon. We would take 20-40 people into some canyon and only a couple into others).
2)Bolters/Bolt users: Careless imbeciles who lack any care for aesthetics, conservation, or ethics. People who have an endless supply of cash and time to bolt whatever canyons and drops they want for “unnecessary” reasons. The people who “dumb-down” canyons, as if such a thing is possible. Selfish and intolerant (see: Natural Anchor Advocates).
3)Natural Anchor Advocates: Delusional folks more focused on some unobtainable aesthetic style than reality, which are proposed as antipodal. Always carry thousands of yards of webbing to litter the desert as well as crowbars and some form of “putty” to fill holes. Selfish and intolerant (see: Bolters/Bolt users).
4)Bolt discussion participants: Kitten killers. (I have come up with the positives, let me know if there are any negatives).
Sound like a fair synopsis? Please add more comments to make the pinatas larger and easier targets for the thrusting of our Leki poles.
What I know I have reinforced is that overly prescriptive methodology and philosophies are best employed to further some personal notion of “best” rather than accurately protect both the environment and the human experience. Is one form of anchor building inherently safer than another (evaluation, placement, etc)? Does one have an inherently larger impact on the recreational experience or landscape? Do we really employ such static ideas for such dynamic environments? Can various ethics and practices coexist? I hope so but only time will tell.
Off soapbox…let the kittens, spiders, ethics, and wilderness experiences continue to die. Ding, ding.
Phillip
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > Exactly ! What would you prefer to see: a couple of yards of webbing > over a lip,
Why more than a few inches over the lip, of olive or rust colored?
In a decent canyon rap station > there is no webbing or chains, just two bolts. And no rope grooves. pretty-much-ok side effect of natural anchors but that they are > offended in their outdoor experience by seeing bolts.
I am offended that even after sharing the fact that about all the major rope grooves are off of bolted anchors, in Zion, that you continue to claim that natural anchors cause rope grooves. You sure you aren’t just “trying to win an argument?” Just because you say it over and over again, doesn’t it make it more true with each saying. Natural anchors do not cause rope grooves. Poorly placed anchors do, natural AND bolted ones both. Back to work. Stressful day. The downclimbing issue next, when I get the chance. That’s even a bigger crock than what your trying to sell on the grooves. R
A.J.
> I see the same phenomenon in downclimbs: sometimes people go to > ridiculous lengths and risks to downclimb certain drops. I often > help > those out a hand from below after I rapped past them . > I also know four people who broke ankles or legs by trying to > follow > on such downclimbs when there were perfectly good anchors on top. > But those who make it can say “I did it”. Good for their ego and > nothing much else.
Personally, I like to challenge myself with upclimbs and downclimbs to continue growing my skills and reassessing my limits. If I’ve rapped the drop before, and it looked doable, then I’d progress to downclimbing with a belay. Then downclimbing it unaided. It helps build strength and confidence that is used later as skills progress and explorations take place…
Other than that, you have some valid points. Like a few others, don’t think the second station would be used much in Spry. The experience level in that canyon isn’t really that high (from my experience.) I’d guess people would rap right past that station. Couldn’t hurt though. Even if only a few folks used the second station, it would still reduce the amount of wear; and word would likely get out on what to expect…
As I’ve stated before, I’m all for bolts in the appropriate places. Some areas where I feel is appropriate? Class C canyons where anchor material is unlikely at best. Long distance from anchors to drops; let’s say where you would need to leave more than 30′ of webbing. Drops where anchor material MAY be available. If you likely have to shuttle it up from below; then I’d say put in a bolt. It would stink to get there late and after a storm and find no anchor; especially if you were going solo. (Yes, I know this is a very minute amount of folks in the solo category – and arguably we are asking for it Usually there is two or more people so constructing from below isn’t as big of an issue; but still quite time consuming…)
I think part of the adversity to bolts is that when they start to pop up, they pop up in many places. I think of how many downclimbs that were quite easy, which had an anchor constructed at the top. If it’s webbing, no big deal. Remove it and we are back to normal. Not so with a bolt. If a few of the drops have bolts, then more and more will likely pop up. My 2c.
I also like the idea of certain areas remaining bolt free, to allow the fun of ghosting and challenge. I think the view that some expressed of having some easier accessed ones be bolted and easy to descend is a good compromise. It’s like the dealer giving the first drug for free. Get’em in, make it nice and easy. Then they are hooked. But if you want to go deeper, it’s just not as easy. Gotta work more and learn more…
Anyway, thanks for chiming in…
Take care, A.J.
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > Gee Brian, thanks for not calling me an “alien” !
Hey! Can’t be too sure, though. Only an alien would show up for one night in Vercors with two cases of fine Belgian beer. No reasonable human would do that!
Wow, I’d think the heat sink from the rock would quickly negate any torch action, but neat to know. Long cure times in cold canyons makes glue-ins a real pain.
Ever used dynabolts, or, Fixe Triplex then gone back and replaced those with another glue in? That’d be one solution. Drill two holes, glue in one, mechanical bolt in other. Then go back and replace the mechanical bolts.
I’ve placed a couple of dynabolts, but, never have gone back to see how easy it would be to remove them. Anyone?
When we did Pissarde in the Vercors, at the rendezvous last August, we should have either slipped the rappel rope, or, takin’ a better look at the re-belay bolts on the lip of the last 80m rappel (which looked poor). That rope shred was really scary. Should have known better. Cliff was full of rope grooves and the printed guide we had said, “For the last 80m waterfall, it is necessary to know multi- pitch abseiling technics, and to minimize rope abrasion.” Pretty scary shredding two static lines and having to watch folks continue down and pass the ripped apart sheath.
Tom, as far as ITAR is concerned, there are concerns about directing folks to public information where they normally wouldn’t have connected those dots. No biggie, though, just funny I had my yearly training this morning and then see your post.
Cheers!
-Brian in SLC
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
The canyons with the missing bolts that we came across in Ut, I’m > still waiting for Joe to come home, he’s at the mine for a few > more days. I let you know the names as soon as I can. > I know of no canyons with “missing” bolts. I know some that used to have bolts that are now not there ;-> Obviously, a matter of perspective.
> True, I’m afraid. I can’t imagine Matt with a large group.
I’m pretty sure Matt does large groups. Perhaps him-of-merry- appendages could clarify.
> There sometimes are various college groups and the like who come > on their own too.
A good possibility. Some of these do a good job of LNT, some don’t.
What I object to is the assumption that, because they are a largish group, they necessarily frack up the canyon. Big group or small, some frack, some don’t.
> The problem I have with it is, If a bolt is in a published guide > book and someone is counting on it, then please don’t remove it.
So this is the Published=Sacred claim, rather than the once- placed=Sacred claim? How about if “the author” indicates he expects the bolts to be pulled by “hard-core-canyoneers”?
Canyons change. Even bolts come and go, by natural processes as well as by the hand of man. Yes, we know SOME people blindly trust anchors to be there and the anchors to be good. I believe it is our job to relieve them of this blind trust as soon as possible.
In “The Wilderness”, as opposed to in the Magic Kingdom, signs of man are allowed that are the minimum that allow passage (see Wilderness Act). My intention here is the philosophical point of what attributes Wilderness has (rather than invoking Federal Law).
I hope no one on this forum is thinking the canyons are “all set up and ready to go”, even the trade routes in Zion. Canyoneers might, at any time, be called upon to think.
> No No! don’t do it!!! Damnit I like being faceless!
Good thing I have one of the original copies of AZ Canyoneering, before Todd was forced to pixelate your face out on all those pictures…
Tom
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
> Yes, sorry. A common setup with glue-ins is nowadays the top one put > in “normal” and the bottom one an inch to the side and 8 inches or so > lower but put in with the eye “horizontal”. > That way you can put one of the strands coming down neatly through the bottom one. If the top one fails (you never know), you have a small shock load but the bottom one should be the stronger one of the two with the eye horizontal.
Koen, That is what I *thought* you meant, but for clarity I thought it best to ask for confirmation. I like this setup too – it keeps the bolts apart, and most likely not along a sandstone fracture/bedding line…
Thanks!
Koen
Hmmm. Oh really. And, you know that Koen is a foreign person, eh? >
Gee Brian, thanks for not calling me an “alien” !
> bolts. Maybe try to stay inside those temperature ranges. Heating > a bolt in a cold canyon to a temperature that would still allow you > to handle the bolt without burning yourself would probably be no > problemo, I’d think. >
I never heated the bolt: I tried putting those glass ampoules (a glass tube with the two components separate, you slide it in the hole and break the glass by inserting the bolt and mulching the glass vial to a pulp while mixing the contents) in a hot water thermos. Not ideal.
And I tried heating the rock with a small gas torch. After fanning the flame (non-residue so no stains) with the flame a few minutes it was warm to the touch but far from hot. That gave the best results, after a few minutes the glue would be so hard as to resist denting with a sharp knife. The first time I was a bit slow putting in the bolt and it hardened before it was all the way in.
Thanks for the bolt/glue info and file Tom, quite a read ahead this evening.
Koen
Koen
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tom” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
In a decent canyon rap station
there is no webbing or chains, just two bolts. And no rope grooves.
Errr… You mean two bolts, and at least several quick-links to > protect the actual bolt, and to separate the bolts while allowing for > the load to be distributed (but not multiplied) right?
-tom(w) >
Yes, sorry. A common setup with glue-ins is nowadays the top one put in “normal” and the bottom one an inch to the side and 8 inches or so lower but put in with the eye “horizontal”. That way you can put one of the strands coming down neatly through the bottom one. If the top one fails (you never know), you have a small shock load but the bottom one should be the stronger one of the two with the eye horizontal.
In dry canyons with abrasive dirt you should indeed add a quick link on the top one (which you can then put horizontal as well to position the quick link away from the rock). No need to put a link on the lower bolt because the rope just runs through it and doesn’t abrade.
canyoncrazy
>Aside from that….What other media? Point helpless me? 😉
I emailed you the names amd I’ll look for the exact places where I saw the “pulling and chopping bolts” posts on another site. A few pictures were up on flickr on chopping bolts, I’ll look if they are still there. The canyons with the missing bolts that we came across in Ut, I’m still waiting for Joe to come home, he’s at the mine for a few more days. I let you know the names as soon as I can.
> True, I’m afraid. I can’t imagine Matt with a large group. There > sometimes are various college groups and the like who come on their > own too. Be nice if we looked on the vehicles for logos etc. NOLS and > Outward Bound are also in the equation. The fixed ropes recently >left in Cheesebox were unfortunate. I cringe to think if it had >been bolted at every station they fixed something. A canyon where >the consensus is 3 raps, would now have 10 or more bolt stations? >Would that be OK with those bolt tolerant? Bolting can be done by >anyone who wants to do it, any time.
Every day I deal with the red-neck back wards people here in Az. I can not tell you how many times I hear about their ATVs or jeeps, and driving it off the roads over whatever they wish, cutting fences and driving down the Verde river (off limits to this kind of traffic). Just because they can and it is easier.
It is the same with beginer canyoners who do not know any better. Last year we saw 7 new bolts pop up in Az and Ut canyons. Some so new the rock dust was still under the new bolt. People are going to bolt to make it easy for them and if they have a paying guided group they are more likely to add “safety” bolts.
The problem I have with it is, If a bolt is in a published guide book and someone is counting on it, then please don’t remove it. As for placing new ones just because you can, well that is not right either but we will see this happening-those can be pulled and fixed. . .
> Now that I have public pictures at last, I like helping folks put the > face with the name, just in case you bump into folks “out there.” I > don’t have a picture of Joe yet.
No No! don’t do it!!! Damnit I like being faceless! You can pull some from our flickr page if you really want to have Joe pictured. He was on the homepage photo a few years back holding a 8’ladder in “snake pit” canyon. That is a funny story too. . .
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tom” wrote: > First. I’m no chemist. But I am a designer who uses adhesives to bond > structures and optical assemblies for aerospace/defense “products”.
Hmmm. Oh really. And, you know that Koen is a foreign person, eh?
By some strange coincidence, I’ve just completed my yearly export awareness training.
“Technical data relating to defense articles is controlled under ITAR regardless of the form or level of detail of the information.”
Just, uhh, be careful.
And, for most of these two part epoxy type adesives, higher temps = accelerated cure to a point. Too much temperature can cause some types of materials to lose their properties, for example, if some materials exotherme during cure, they can be pretty much worthless.
I’ve seen temp charts for most of the popular stuff used for glue in bolts. Maybe try to stay inside those temperature ranges. Heating a bolt in a cold canyon to a temperature that would still allow you to handle the bolt without burning yourself would probably be no problemo, I’d think.
Good info on placing glue-ins though…
-Brian in SLC
tom
I was able to “re-find” this link, which has some good information on glue-in bolt design, cleaning, adhesives, and testing.
http://bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm
-tom(w)
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > In a decent canyon rap station > there is no webbing or chains, just two bolts. And no rope grooves.
Errr… You mean two bolts, and at least several quick-links to protect the actual bolt, and to separate the bolts while allowing for the load to be distributed (but not multiplied) right?
-tom(w)
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: > I contacted several brands of glue, but nobody knew or would garantee > me if the polymerisation of the glue was as complete when setting in > two minutes rather than 2 hours. Any chemical experts here ?
Koen, great post, couple (looong) comments:
First. I’m no chemist. But I am a designer who uses adhesives to bond structures and optical assemblies for aerospace/defense “products”. I’ve seen adhesives fail catastrophically under low loads. Failures were always traced back to one of three things a) out-of-life (shelf/storage) adhesives, improper process (cleanliness/cure schedule), or just poor joint design. Mostly it was improper process/control – aka human error.
Your emphasis on cleanliness of bolt and hole deserves 5 stars – *so* important to have a clean hole and bolt when using adhesives. Surface preparation affects both bond strength and environmental/aging resistance. I recommend cleaning your bolts at home with an abrasive cleanser and scrubber, then cleaning that with isopropyl alcohol, acetone, or other oil-free solvent (spray brake cleaner would be good). Then storing them in a clean container until use. Then wiping those down with an isopropyl alcohol wipe at the time of use.
Make sure your adhesives are “in-date” and appropriate. Use the adhesive the manufacturer (of the bolt) recommends for the materials you are bonding! If you head down to Home-Depot and buy some general construction adhesive it may work great for you and kill the next person. Next – check the date! these things expire. Best to buy just before you need it. Make sure it was stored properly (away from light at required temperatures) this pretty much excludes buying from the corner hardware store where the stuff could have been on a pallet in the summer in Phoenix…. Buy from an official industrial distributor.
Finally – mix accurately. You can drastically change the material properties of the adhesive with small variations in the mix. The company I work for has a materials testing lab which has seen radical changes in material properties. Also be aware that the mix ratio may vary depending on the thickness of the bond. A great example of this is Fiberglass (polyester) resin. In thin layers it cures fine using the standard ratios, but try to “cast” a block and it cracks hideously (not to mention it gets wicked hot, the byproduct of polymerization).
For accelerated cure, most aerospace structural adhesives have a cure schedule for given temperatures. It does not surprise me if the companies you contacted would not reveal the information to you, especially if you told them what you were doing with it (life-bearing). They may not even have it if they are not the developer of the adhesive, or are not a “good” company.
The general “problem” is “quality control”. Do you know the temp of the adhesive and rock when you install (thus determining your cure time)?
Adhesives tend to be forgiving, until they are not. I would agree that glue-ins are the most durable solution when bolting, but also the one which requires the greatest skill to install.
-tom(w)
Koen
> If I were not a user of the vertical world ( but, say, a hiker or photographer) I would be inflamed to see the climber/rapper crap leff on canyon walls. I believe it’s much bigger than manners. Burrrp. >
Exactly ! What would you prefer to see: a couple of yards of webbing over a lip, coming out of sand, around an obviously man made cairn or from a trunk wedged in an artificial way – with rope groves to boot ?
Or, if you look really well, two tiny bolts which from a few dozen yards away are not noticeable anyway ?
As a climber you certainly know the situation: you can spot the first few bolts on a climbing route, but the higher they go, the harder to spot until you can only guess or follow the route by the magnesium marks. With a bit of luck you can spot the top station which has a chain connecting the two upper bolts. In a decent canyon rap station there is no webbing or chains, just two bolts. And no rope grooves.
I dumbfounds me that some people think of rope groves as a pretty-much-ok side effect of natural anchors but that they are offended in their outdoor experience by seeing bolts. Both are pretty obvious signs of human presence and don’t go away (which you could say of a cairn or webbing – which I think is littering), so why rope grooves don’t hurt your “quality time as a would-be explorer” and bolts do ?!?
Koen
Todd
There are things to be inflamed about in this world …. things that actually matter.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, bary bruner wrote:
Sorry Todd, I’m sticking with ‘ethics’. I don’t care which folk you use; drilling holes in rock located in pristine settings diminishes the wild character, visual appeal, and opportunity of discovery for those that follow. I climb, I rap, I use bolts. I’m not saying they do not have a purpose, but believe the discussion of their use needs to continue. If I were not a user of the vertical world ( but, say, a hiker or photographer) I would be inflamed to see the climber/rapper crap leff on canyon walls. I believe it’s much bigger than manners. Burrrp.
— On Fri, 1/30/09, Todd wrote:
From: Todd To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 6:10 AM
> Never liked the term ‘ethics’ in this context – which implies > right/wrong or a moral code. Bolting is neither.
Instead of ‘ethics’ let’s call it ‘manners’ or ‘etiquette’ from now > on. These are more accurate terms plus it’s harder for one to work > themselves up into a self righteous froth over the improper use of a > salad fork.
Please and thank you.
-Todd
— In canyons@yahoogroups .com, “Tom Jones” wrote:
> Or maybe WITH the same ethics – you don’t know. This might have
been Matt Moore’s group, and he sets the highest standard I have
ever seen for travel in the wild. He makes it part of his guided
adventure, and people eat it up. We do the same at Zion > Adventure,
but to a lesser degree.
> >
bary bruner
Sorry Todd, I’m sticking with ‘ethics’. I don’t care which folk you use; drilling holes in rock located in pristine settings diminishes the wild character, visual appeal, and opportunity of discovery for those that follow. I climb, I rap, I use bolts. I’m not saying they do not have a purpose, but believe the discussion of their use needs to continue. If I were not a user of the vertical world ( but, say, a hiker or photographer) I would be inflamed to see the climber/rapper crap leff on canyon walls. I believe it’s much bigger than manners. Burrrp.
— On Fri, 1/30/09, Todd todds_hiking_guide@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Todd todds_hiking_guide@yahoo.com> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: to bolt or not to bolt To: Yahoo Canyons Group Date: Friday, January 30, 2009, 6:10 AM
Never liked the term ‘ethics’ in this context – which implies right/wrong or a moral code. Bolting is neither.
Instead of ‘ethics’ let’s call it ‘manners’ or ‘etiquette’ from now on. These are more accurate terms plus it’s harder for one to work themselves up into a self righteous froth over the improper use of a salad fork.
Please and thank you.
-Todd
— In canyons@yahoogroups .com, “Tom Jones” wrote:
> Or maybe WITH the same ethics – you don’t know. This might have > been Matt Moore’s group, and he sets the highest standard I have > ever seen for travel in the wild. He makes it part of his guided > adventure, and people eat it up. We do the same at Zion Adventure, > but to a lesser degree.
Todd
Never liked the term ‘ethics’ in this context – which implies right/wrong or a moral code. Bolting is neither.
Instead of ‘ethics’ let’s call it ‘manners’ or ‘etiquette’ from now on. These are more accurate terms plus it’s harder for one to work themselves up into a self righteous froth over the improper use of a salad fork.
Please and thank you.
-Todd
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
> Or maybe WITH the same ethics – you don’t know. This might have > been Matt Moore’s group, and he sets the highest standard I have > ever seen for travel in the wild. He makes it part of his guided > adventure, and people eat it up. We do the same at Zion Adventure, > but to a lesser degree.