> I think the most interesting enlightenment of this thread is how > easily we categorize the styles and techniques of “others.” The > list as I have figured from this thread thus far:
1)Guide companies: Groups of bolt happy entrepreneurs too…
Hilarious. Thanks for the laugh Phillip!
I think the bolters/bolt users are required to drive a SUV too, while Natural anchor folks can only drive a Prius or similar hybrid…
Later, A.J.
homegrown6
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “A.J.” wrote:
> I think the most interesting enlightenment of this thread is how
easily we categorize the styles and techniques of “others.” The
list as I have figured from this thread thus far:
1)Guide companies: Groups of bolt happy entrepreneurs too…
Hilarious. Thanks for the laugh Phillip!
I think the bolters/bolt users are required to drive a SUV too, while > Natural anchor folks can only drive a Prius or similar hybrid…
Later, > A.J. >
I offer the sharks a fresh new kitty.
Golden Cathedral Rap, What should be done?
Does it deserve a bolt or two? (as I run from the thrashing that is to follow)
Homegrown
flutedwalls
Embrace – I like that, the Jews and the West Bank folk put their ‘arms down’ talk and attempt at embrace and harmony. Folk listen and work at understanding.
I’ve seen and thought about the waves of commentary on this point. (There are also many collateral issues).Maybe, the bunch of ‘US’ have 1,2 or more personality disorders, and the dysfunction on this/these issues is part and parcel of the flawed mental human process?
Yesterday I abandoned the “office” and skied in the backcountry. 4 out of five runs were supreme and the last a crusty dud. Some of my parters(are)big time active canyoneers. I asked at one point. “Have you seen the banter on the net re bolting and noted who is offering the posts?” Their response somewhat surprised me. “No, we have NO INTEREST in looking at the Canyons E-group, and NO we don’t CARE anymore about persons X, Y or Z (and their opinions.)
Last spring, summer and fall, I happened to run into and meet, socially & via a crazy mini guiding process in Zion, a handful of folk that work at the two guiding shops in Springdale; and a handful of park and SAR folk. Privately they all have views on bolts, natural anchors, rope scars and ubiquitous users routes. And they also are partisan and loyal to different parties in the canyon crowd. Most of these folk would NEVER post a private position publicly and I’m not going to share their private views; other than to offer; they share a wide diversity of opinion – but generally not that strong on either side; Most of the folk though seemed flexible.
Are views on this site skewed and slanted so they fit the style of a moderator, ACA Canyon Leader or loudest voice in the crowd? Some folk continuously like to be on the stage, and seemingly forever, take ownership of this or that view or opinion? (at least that’s the commentary and feeling I hear from some)
It’s a paradox really, bolt here, don’t bolt here and let’s pull the bolts there? The conflict-averse in the crowd, say let it be. Some of us though,wonder? If one offers, “Maybe the bolts should have been left in, or maybe they will be replaced”; what do some in the audience announce in return? An acrimonious and defensive retort or a respectful attempt at understanding anothers view?
Strident partisanship and loyalty to band members seems to hold sway in some of these canyon discussions. Personally I think it’s a most minor matter, that amongst most of us will work itself out. (A few bolts here and there but mostly bolt-free, except for in Zion of course.) And then that matter of pushing one’s view; well, the wind turns course and some wish to push back. (you took the bolts out, we’ll put the bolts back in, thank you.)
Judge, coach, ref where are you? Rules: announce when you bolt, announce when you pull? Sounds fine in some echo chambers, but it doesn’t resonate to that large crowd that NEVER looks at the canyons egroup and cares little for what person X, Y or Z wants or wishes.
The outdoors, outside of executive directive of the govt., park service or BLM is the great public domain and free range of the public at large. Cows can roam freely and canyoneers too, and they all seemingly walk to the beat of a different drummer and dance to their own clarion call and tune? Too many user groups or clans to control or direct. Ethics, reason, argument, philosophy, experience, insight and dues – synopsis of arguments “1, 2, 3, 4”; all seemingly thrown out the window. John, Jane Doe – oblivious to the debate – arrive in Utah or Arizona, do a canyon and walla, put in or pull out a bolt or natural anchor. It’s chaotic to think active outdoor types can easily be directed or “controlled”. There is WAY too much independence and diversity in the “species”, really.
I’ve many canyon friends that shy away from the canyons egroup. Too much irrelevance, hostility (or nonsense) some of them say. (Myself, I feel there are batches of laudatory, humorous or educational posts) Still, the gravitational pull and slide – “I no longer have an interest, I no longer care” (about those strong opinions over there; don’t they understand and accept diversity?) Jews, Arabs (Muslim); Catholics, Protestants; Agnostics, Fundamentalists? This world of ours, a steady chaotic mix; some attempt to make it work, others dodging harmony, as in their view is most often right?
Oh all these minor matters. Clear Creek? A watery pothole slot for one entrance with a long rap at the end. OR, walk around the slot to the east and enter via the long sandstone nose. I’ve been down both routes and come back up, always, via the sloped nose. I can’t imagine parties jugging back up a line and going “up hill” through the watery slot? Atop the nose are two adequate bolts. It’s that spot I believe some/many go down, and most ascend. At the end of the slot though, couldn’t a dead-man have been set up for the rap? If that’s the policy or rule for Mindbender, maybe it should have been for Clear Creek too? And there(Clear Creek)the bolts somehow protect the novice public but not in Mindbender? (Personally I support the bolts in Clear Creek; both the slot and the nose; and after a long, evolving change of heart and view, was finally OK with them on the last rap in Mindbender too.)
Zion – Heaps, Imlay, Mystery, Behunin, Pine Creek? Imagine pulling all bolts and setting “natural anchors” at each of the last raps. Once upon a time I suppose it was that way. So was it safety, rock rope cuts, stuck ropes or just personalities, people, that put the bolts in?
There is a maze of corridors (and traps)one can go through when entering this mine field trip line (re bolting, anchors). Myself, I often get distracted and slip too.
Mostly I compliment the lead moderators and canyon guides that post on this site. There is an exceptional band of well educated and articulate folk – entertaining at times too. As to this matter though, is it OK to simply say, some of us have a different view on this or that most minor point, and folk on the other side say in response, OK; and both let it go, and walk on?
So my points, are just….., pause; I’m on a slide, less and less I care about this (discussion)…me/our group, after the synergy of our private narrative, back and forth and with an attempt at civility, will do as “we wish” in the canyons I suppose. Hoping first we preserve the sacred scenery of the desert, that we walk softly, and leave as little trace as possible. Tough though in the desert front-country that is getting beaten down so. And easily inspecting the safety and veracity of a deadman that is lodged with mud and debris? (Not a problem, some, many would say?) Oh Well, Clean out the campfire pits please – that’s a slide from anchors!
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote:
one of the (if not the only real) argument of the anti-bolt > crowd was that they could imagine being the first down in a pristine > environment. Like the permit system in Zion, that gave as a reason > that groups would have their own sense of “alone-ness” instead of > bumping into other people. > Has this line of reasoning been abandoned ? Probably due to the large> amounts of old webbing you now see as debris around tree stumps or> sticking out of the sand ;-).
You seem to be applying the alone-ness argument that is sometimes used by those playing in the southern and eastern part of the plateau and is never the central reasoning against the placing of bolts in popular venues like Zion. In these more remote areas there are still many unexplored canyons and unexplored sections of larger canyon systems.
Moki steps and the industrious nature of man lends credence to many pristine canyons perhaps having seen visitors, even if they were short, barefoot and it was a long time ago. But these places primarily show no sign of modern passage. When the explorations are over, it is often left clean of anything or with just a few pieces of webbing here and there. The idea is to provide whoever finds it next with as close to a pristine experience as possible. No permanent altering beyond what normal flooding does. Ghosting where possible. If we make subsequent descents, we will try and reduce impacts of man.
We are fortunate to have such places in our back yard, so there is no need to pretend alone-ness, just the etiquette (Todd;-))of preserving them for followers. Zion, trade routes the other known canyons are just a part of the picture. I am way more concerned with bolts in the neither regions. It is one of the reasons the pioneers did not broadcast such places. It is one of the reasons us followers broadcast just a few of these places (for your descending pleasure). If done right, few if any evidence exists of descents just a few months or years later. We don’t need to pretend. We have the real thing.
The bolters have chosen to emphasize the more impactful anchors and present them as the predominately used anchor. This is simply far from the truth. Webbing around a rock wedges. A chock slung, the omni sling on a tree well back, the last man downclimb and capture techniques. These make up almost all natural anchors and climbing techniques used in the wild areas. When webbing is left, it is often just a few feet. It will stay put till the next visit most times, but when it doesn’t, it is usually found a few yards downcanyon, laying in the sand. But mostly little gets left. That is made possible by the nature of the canyons in these parts of the plateau because the canyons more often, have many shorter drops, versus the larger drops of Zion and the pictures I see of European canyons. The narrow way that Navajo Sandstone cuts, allows for practical and safe downclimbs from heights that would require rappels elsewhere. It a really fun sport, playing in this type of venue. It calls upon its players, much imagination. If you can imagine yourself in such places (and you would love it, I suspect), you might gain further insight into “how” we came about this desire to leave nothing permanent. It is also why so many of the folks exploring tend to be disproportionately the natural anchor crowd.
Please be kind and don’t label us conveniently and inaccurately Nazis leaving huge glop’s of webbing about, digging holes and burying backpacks. A backpack got buried once, many years ago, on top of an unbetaed canyon’s last drop, which was 265 feet. Darkness was falling and one fellow came up with an innovative solution to get them down and out quickly. Be a little kind and stop taking the short cut of generalizing us into a pigeon hole. Especially those who are on explorations. This image you paint of wholesale digging, deadmen, yards of webbing, huge cairns is just not the reality in very many places at all.
This of course has nothing to do with the more populated canyons. And therein lay much of the boundaries between what my group wants and what may be practical. If one goes back to the original posts on the removal of the Mindbender bolt, one of the questions asked was what is enough traffic for a canyon to be a trade route and once a trade route what type of anchors are best? Not-Mindbenders anchor issues were added to the discussion because they have contrasting geometry and about the same traffic. If we surrender these to trade route status, which specific spots should have their more impactful natural anchors become better served by fixed anchors? We agreed that traffic is increasing in these places. We agree that they will probably be better off fixed in the future. We argue whether that day has arrived yet. And how to tell when it does.
We don’t argue for our type anchors in Zion. This belongs to the masses and the bolts that top the canyons many large drops. But please don’t blame the natural crowd for the rope grooves that predominate there from the bolted anchors. Its neither fair nor accurate.
And we natural folks will retreat to our less visited venues, hopefully finding new places to play. We will do so hoping that every Tom, Dick and Harry isn’t carrying a bolt kit and G- Pick, along with thinking it is what “everyone does.”
But perhaps thank some of those explorers on the way out there. Some of the canyons that are becoming trade routes were given over by these folks. Some of the places they visit now? Some of them are your future trade route gems. I bet they are handed over in good shape. R