Sorry but I really needed to say this. . .
I understand the idea that bolts are unsightly but arguing that sandstone groves are not and aren’t as bad is just ridiculous! No offence Tom I love ya man, but rope groves are Ugly!!
I have to disagree that one bolt is more destructive and ugly than many rope groves or 100’s of feet of trashed webbing. I have been in MANY canyons that the nearest anchor is a ways away from the drop and lots of old, new, brightly colored, canyon colored webbing is strung many feet to the edge of the drop. THAT is ugly! And no one seams to replace the webbing, just adds to it. I can’t tell you how many trips we have cleaned up old webbing on. I have carried at least a total of 2 spools of used webbing out of canyons from Last year alone! -not kidding! From Death valley canyons, roost canyons and some Az canyons.
And another thing that has been eating away at me. . .
All this talk about pulling bolts, bolts are not needed, these bolt wars are going to lead to someone’s death or needing rescue. A certain banned Author, (as well as other guide books,) has hundreds of routes describing bolts and other anchors in his guide books. When someone is counting on a bolt being there because it is in a guide book and is unaware that someone has chopped or pulled it- this can become deadly.
I know, I know, you are now arguing that people should be able to make an anchor or be properly prepared, canyons are constantly changing, duh I know that. But you can NOT stop people from going down a canyon because they don’t have advanced skills- Remember we ALL were beginner once. One day a beginner will be counting on a bolt in a guide book to be there and they will suffer from “pulled bolt shock” when they reach a drop with the missing bolt. Most likely trapping them at that drop. Everyone, regardless of our personal beliefs has the right to enjoy canyons as the rest of us have/do. Just because they are a beginner or not as skilled as some of us, is not going to stop them from following a published route -think about it- People fallow trails in Grand Canyon hiking books all the time- and yes due to other unprepared issues, people get rescued from the GC all the time. But the difference is the trail does not change all that much, no one removes the bridges over the river, but people remove bolts at drops. . . not the same, but both are published routes!
So I want to know, Do you anti-bolt people use the bolt in Heaps’ last drop? Why if bolts are so bad do you use it? What would you do if it was gone, build a dead man on the birds perch? (I have no problem with dead man anchors, constructing anchors, have used them many times, but if there is NO alternative then I also have no problem with a well placed, color matched bolt FYI) Also, What would you do if Rich’s glue-in in Sundance was gone- there is No anchor building rocks or cracks for Ibus hooks on that 180′ drop either. I’ve looked. So why not leave the ones that are already there? Why not leave the ones that are in guide books.
Just because it’s not your way does not make it wrong. There are many ways to do the same canyon, not just one way is the right one. After watching the canyoneering DVD, I saw a lot of different view points on “how to hike this canyon”, and a few people with the “it’s my way and it is the ONLY way” attitude- sorry but those attitudes Do Not work in any situation, including in life. My 2 cents, It’s been bugging me all day at work.
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tom” wrote:
I’ll be back in AZ in mid-late March! But I doubt I will be cleared > for any canyons. Shoulder recovery is estimated at 4-6 months for full > active-duty
-tom(w) > So you would recommend, to the rest of us, to avoid falling off cliffs?
T(J)
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
No Tom I was not talking about you, you are one of my favorites! > But not the bolt removers I had in mind.
Why thank you. Back at ya.
I know of no one else who actively removes bolts, and states so in public.
And I am very sure you do not own a fleet of white vans either!
I’m simply stating that there are tours being lead in canyons by > people with out the same ethics as you or I.
Or maybe WITH the same ethics – you don’t know. This might have been Matt Moore’s group, and he sets the highest standard I have ever seen for travel in the wild. He makes it part of his guided adventure, and people eat it up. We do the same at Zion Adventure, but to a lesser degree.
We did not make it to the roost, it was too cold! But as I hope > you already know, we aren’t bolting crazy either. We have spent > lots of time building anchors and so far have never had to use our > emergency bolt kit. Any canyon that has been done naturally > before, we have repeated. The only bolts we have placed were in 2 > undescended canyons when other options were unavailable. > I did not know that, new information for me. Please accept my apology for implying otherwise in a recent post. The only parts of your work I have seen are these two canyons, and they are, as you noted on our descent, over-bolted in a few spots. These are canyons where bolts make sense to me.
Tom
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
> I know you guys started without any technical background, and you have produced quite an amazing quiver of first descents. Perhaps it is time you guys worked on your natural anchor skills and learned how to build, test, and rely on natural and “natural” anchors; rather than reaching for the drill every time an obvious, convenient and easy natural anchor does not present itself….
From my standpoint Joe and Sara did a nearly textbook job of gaining their skills. They did it gradually, asked lots of questions, sought out experienced folk, and knew when they were in over their heads… This includes natural anchors.
Maybe early on, in the un-descended canyons they found, a bolt or two was placed that now would have been anchored naturally, or downclimbed, but not many. Hell, if I had been more highly skilled it would have saved one or two….
-tom(w)
Stevee B
Rope grooves are worse, agreed, but as Jrat said, it’s not always either/or. If in fact it is either/or, I advocate the bolt.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
Sorry but I really needed to say this. . .
I understand the idea that bolts are unsightly but arguing that > sandstone groves are not and aren’t as bad is just ridiculous! > No offence Tom I love ya man, but rope groves are Ugly!!
I have to disagree that one bolt is more destructive and ugly than > many rope groves or 100’s of feet of trashed webbing. > I have been in MANY canyons that the nearest anchor is a ways away > from the drop and lots of old, new, brightly colored, canyon colored > webbing is strung many feet to the edge of the drop. THAT is ugly! > And no one seams to replace the webbing, just adds to it. I can’t > tell you how many trips we have cleaned up old webbing on. I have > carried at least a total of 2 spools of used webbing out of canyons > from Last year alone! -not kidding! From Death valley canyons, roost > canyons and some Az canyons.
And another thing that has been eating away at me. . .
All this talk about pulling bolts, bolts are not needed, these bolt > wars are going to lead to someone’s death or needing rescue. > A certain banned Author, (as well as other guide books,) has > hundreds of routes describing bolts and other anchors in his guide > books. When someone is counting on a bolt being there because it is > in a guide book and is unaware that someone has chopped or pulled it- > this can become deadly.
I know, I know, you are now arguing that people should be able to > make an anchor or be properly prepared, canyons are constantly > changing, duh I know that. > But you can NOT stop people from going down a canyon because they > don’t have advanced skills- Remember we ALL were beginner once. One > day a beginner will be counting on a bolt in a guide book to be > there and they will suffer from “pulled bolt shock” when they reach > a drop with the missing bolt. Most likely trapping them at that > drop. > Everyone, regardless of our personal beliefs has the right to enjoy > canyons as the rest of us have/do. Just because they are a beginner > or not as skilled as some of us, is not going to stop them from > following a published route -think about it- > People fallow trails in Grand Canyon hiking books all the time- and > yes due to other unprepared issues, people get rescued from the GC > all the time. But the difference is the trail does not change all > that much, no one removes the bridges over the river, but people > remove bolts at drops. . . not the same, but both are published > routes!
So I want to know, Do you anti-bolt people use the bolt in Heaps’ > last drop? Why if bolts are so bad do you use it? What would you do > if it was gone, build a dead man on the birds perch? > (I have no problem with dead man anchors, constructing anchors, have > used them many times, but if there is NO alternative then I also > have no problem with a well placed, color matched bolt FYI) > Also, What would you do if Rich’s glue-in in Sundance was gone- > there is No anchor building rocks or cracks for Ibus hooks on that > 180′ drop either. I’ve looked. > So why not leave the ones that are already there? Why not leave the > ones that are in guide books.
Just because it’s not your way does not make it wrong. There are > many ways to do the same canyon, not just one way is the right one. > After watching the canyoneering DVD, I saw a lot of different view > points on “how to hike this canyon”, and a few people with the “it’s > my way and it is the ONLY way” attitude- sorry but those attitudes > Do Not work in any situation, including in life. > My 2 cents, It’s been bugging me all day at work. >
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
We did Not Mindbender, a few years ago with Todd and Steph. At > the last rap there was a bolt on the wall to the canyon left that > was recently removed. We rappeled from a mess of purple, yellow > webbing on a deadman backed up with red and green webbing attached > to a knot chock.
Interesting. Interesting that the elite of the Arizona Canyoneering Community would leave such a mess behind. I encourage you, in the future, to clean up messes when you come upon them, rather than leave them as a mess, even when canyoning outside your “sphere of influence”.
Bolt was removed on this trip: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0511notm/index.htm (note: text modified today to make it clear that I removed the bolt).
Most of the time when I remove a bolt, I try to show how a solid, reliable natural anchor can be built for that particular drop.
> Joe would have felt safer with a bolt, as big guys do, and it > would have cleaned up the mess of rainbow colored webbing, made an > easier start and a better pull. But the bolt was gone. > There are more than just one or two “removed bolts”. They just seem > not to be posted. > In his presence, I am sure that Joe’s comfort would be high on my priority list. But at this distance, it is not. Last I checked, Joe was an adult. Canyoneering involves some degree of discomfort.
I know you guys started without any technical background, and you have produced quite an amazing quiver of first descents. Perhaps it is time you guys worked on your natural anchor skills and learned how to build, test, and rely on natural and “natural” anchors; rather than reaching for the drill every time an obvious, convenient and easy natural anchor does not present itself. I think it would serve your safety to do so, as the drill does not ALWAYS offer a safe solution.
Or maybe not, as suits your taste. Its a free country. If you place bolts in Utah canyons, please be polite and post here that you have done so, so the community can discuss the appropriateness of it.
The mess of rainbow colored webbing gets cleaned up by people cleaning it up; people who are termed “responsible members of the community”; a class of people that should include you, Joe, Todd and Steph. Bolts or no bolts, it requires people constantly cleaning stuff up to keep the canyons clean.
Tom
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
> Mr W, I am aware of your 3 points
Sara I somehow missed this post. I totally agree in the sense of the trash that (some) natural anchors cause. I just believe that bolting (and de-bolting) is serious business because of the durability and quality (real or perceived) of the act. It shouldn’t generally be done as a simple matter of convenience – my thoughts on this are hard to convey without a campfire and a beer….
I would also comment that trashy anchors are not exclusively “natural”: http://tinyurl.com/2cvjrg ,and vary greatly by circumstance.
I’ll be back in AZ in mid-late March! But I doubt I will be cleared for any canyons. Shoulder recovery is estimated at 4-6 months for full active-duty
-tom(w)
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
> Mr W, I am aware of your 3 points
Sara I somehow missed this post. I totally agree in the sense of the trash that (some) natural anchors cause. I just believe that bolting (and de-bolting) is serious business because of the durability and quality (real or perceived) of the act. It shouldn’t generally be done as a simple matter of convenience – my thoughts on this are hard to convey without a campfire and a beer….
I would also comment that trashy anchors are not exclusively “natural”: http://tinyurl.com/2cvjrg ,and vary greatly by circumstance.
I’ll be back in AZ in mid-late March! But I doubt I will be cleared for any canyons. Shoulder recovery is estimated at 4-6 months for full active-duty
-tom(w)
canyoncrazy
No Tom I was not talking about you, you are one of my favorites! But not the bolt removers I had in mind.
And I am very sure you do not own a fleet of white vans either!
I’m simply stating that there are tours being lead in canyons by people with out the same ethics as you or I.
We did not make it to the roost, it was too cold! But as I hope you already know, we aren’t bolting crazy either. We have spent lots of time building anchors and so far have never had to use our emergency bolt kit. Anyt canyon that has been done naturally before, we have repeated. The only bolts we have placed were in 2 undescended canyons when other options were unavailable.
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
I think the concept of first party “rights” is one many of us have qualms with, though it > practice it is primarily (if not always) respected.
Its just a voluntary thing. I strikes me as good manners, especially if the first descenders share the info with the community. No one has to play. Maybe a good reason to do so? Maybe not. Sara here shared wonderful places with me. They explored these places in a different style than I would have. No matter. I am lined up to defend their desire for future treatment of these areas. Friendship, loyalty, manners for me. And when they finally get the time to let me pay them back, I feel certain that they will reciprocate. The smaller the community, the more this plays. In a larger population, it dilutes. Nice while it lasts. I salute those that find and share. May the places they give as gifts to others, be treated tenderly. R
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote: > Mr W, I am aware of your 3 points, and I do agree on most parts. > But, That guide book author recently placed a new bolt in a roost > canyon, Mindbender (I think) and it was instantly pulled.
If you consider one year and four months to be “instantly”…
> YES there are people who run around pulling bolts and in some > places a simple bolt would clean up an unsightly mess of webbing. > Yes I can name a few who will pull any bolts when they find them, > except from Zion- they leave those. Those people brag about it. > Let me save time and assume you mean ME! I am a public person. No need to be coy, you can name me specifically if that is what you mean.
Yes, there are times when bolt anchors solve difficult webbing litter and/or rope groove problems. I have placed many bolts in Zion with this in mind. Also to save trees from being killed.
But in most cases, this is a false dichotomy. (See Mindbender). Yes, people are sloppy with their anchors and make them ugly, excessively multi-colored and with excessive amounts of webbing. This can apply to bolted anchors, or to natural anchors. We think of it as a “natural anchor” problem (I theorize) because we see it there more. But maybe that is because there are so many natural anchors, and not so many bolted anchors. And because bolters often have a choice of where to put their anchor, and often make a good aesthetic choice where the anchor requires a minimum of webbing. And sometimes not.
I recently placed a bolt in Clear Creek, Escalante. Why? Bolt anchors in this canyon are long established (and were in very poor (ie, dangerous) condition); the route is used by many non- canyoneers; the route is often ascended (jugged) which calls for stronger anchors and careful positioning; and while natural anchors are available, their use would result in massive rope grooves. So I do not “pull any bolts when they find them, except from Zion”. I do not normally carry my bolt-removal-kit. I cannot think of anyone else who you could possibly mean, so perhaps you are mis-informed on this issue.
I would also not pull bolts in Arizona or Death Valley. These areas are outside my “sphere of influence”. I seek to follow the local aesthetic and ethic in these areas, as communicated by the local pioneers. I hope you applied the same sensibility on your recent trip to the Roost – or do I need to put in a bulk order for Epoxy Putty?
“Those people brag about it.”
I give public notice of bolts going in and bolts coming out, and usually provide reasons for my actions. I do this because I was called out for not doing so, for taking such actions “in secret”. Placing and pulling bolts is a public activity that effects the public resource (the commons), and therefore should be conducted in public. Would that the bolters would be so forward.
Tom
canyoncrazy
Memo? what memo???? I agree with the climbing routes, but not everyone asks permission of the founders of routs. . . or of canyons. I would have to check with Joe for the names of the canyons, but we have found a few bolts removed from canyons in Kel…oops I almost said his name, books. Joe has made a note here and there after we complete the canyon. We have also seen new bolts pop up. One in a WCC canyon and a few in canyons in Ut. We have not gone back so it is unknown as of yet if they remain. We did Not Mindbender, a few years ago with Todd and Steph. At the last rap there was a bolt on the wall to the canyon left that was recently removed. We rappeled from a mess of purple, yellow webbing on a deadman backed up with red and green webbing attached to a knot chock. Joe would have felt safer with a bolt, as big guys do, and it would have cleaned up the mess of rainbow colored webbing, made an easier start and a better pull. But the bolt was gone. There are more than just one or two “removed bolts”. They just seem not to be posted
Oh I got the memo now!
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tom” wrote:
> Sara, the bolt removal post refers to a climbing area, not a canyon/ > canyoneering. It has long been (IMHO) settled that it is highly > disrespectful to add bolts to an already established climbing route > without the “permission” of the first ascent party, or at least the > local community…
How many canyons you established have been chopped?
-tom(w) >
I think the concept of first party “rights” is one many of us have qualms with, though it practice it is primarily (if not always) respected. I know some of the origins of the idea. But how does someone become the keeper of experience found on public land? I tend to think it is an ethic that is respected to avoid conflict not because it brings the greatest good to the community, i.e. most of us do it because we don’t have the energy or resources to persevere in the fight. Yet interestingly I have known of one or two experiences were the pronouncement of first party rights and local ethic has caused more controversy than it has solved. Add climbing and that can become a much longer list. Ironically both centered on this confusing status of “first party”.
As far as the inheritance of that privilege, how has that been justified in the past? It seems the staunchest of allies to the ethic are also the ones who use the banner “it is OUR land” when confronting issues of management. When does OURS becomes HIS (Un-PC alert: gross generalization that most descents in the histories of this sport have been by males, that has drastically changed from my observations)? I can see where that might work on crags, where the opportunities for establishing routes are much larger, but in canyons is this really appropriate? And who decides this local ethic, that one has always left me wondering to? I have heard it tossed around so many times and when you dig a little deeper it seems to become one of those “Yellowstone fireside” myths created by a select few. Consensus seems to be driven by time, not actual dialog.
Just a few curiosities and thoughts that have been in the back of my mind for a few years now. I will be back to following local ethics and first party privilege once the snow melts.
Phillip
canyoncrazy
And one more thing. . . I forgot to ask. How does 1 bolt damage the canyon more than some guide companies running 15- 20 people down the canyons?
On our vacation we passed 4 white vans all parked at different places along the hwy. Two at Fry canyon off the bridge. One near Bridges NP and the last was on Cedar mesa. All the vans were packed with people and towing a small trailer of gear. The 2 vans at Fry canyon we counted 20 people! 20 people to hike down a canyon? 20 people to walk back to the van over crypto soil? How is a bolt more damaging than the herd of 20 human beings?
I have no problem with guided tours and once a year rendevous, but human traffic alone in large groups impacts the canyon much faster and more than one bolt placed in the canyon wall. Plants are trampled, spiders, bugs and other small creatures are seriously disturbed or killed. I have even seen a baby snake that was clearly stepped on in a canyon. Look at the Zion canyons, no moss grows on the walls the floor is vacant of most life. . . due to flooding, yes some, but in Az canyons life flourished in between the flooding and foot traffic is what kills the canyon floor. More traffic= more damage.
Some of these new bolts have been placed by guided tours to make it “safer” for their paying costumers. With eco-tourism, and the mass population of this planet all places suffer. Our NP are being loved to death, canyons are not far behind- lucky for us we are still a small group who frequent canyons. But unlike cavers, caves are easily kept secret, canyons can not- they appear on maps. So people taking advantage of the outdoors can easily lead tours down published canyons and will place new bolts. How do we stop that?
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
Ram, you know me so well! > How did you know it was me not Joe? Haha
It was a crime of opportunity. I know he is at work/school the whole week and may not have much access and I imagine him operating some monster machine, so I was hoping he was thinking about this crap. 😉
> And to add to my point- another post of “rumor has it they will be > chopped”. Bolts were put in and now are going to be removed by an > anti-bolt-nazi group. They were put in for safty and are going to be > chopped. Yes there are people who just remove bolts, W.
As Tom W. said, climbing area, not canyons. They have their own wars. Almost no bolts have been removed in commonly done canyons, when the canyon was being commonly done. Neon was chopped long ago. So we have this one bolt, in one Roost canyon, in an area largely bolt free, that has a historical first descent sans bolts. And when it got chopped, it was discussed in the open, the chopper standing up and taking the heat. Hardly the army of marching bolt Nazi’s implied. 😉
I miss you Ram, when is your next trip to AZ?
Oh, in week! Didn’t you get the memo? Ram
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
Ram, you know me so well! Sara – I figured you would have spoken up looooong ago!
> And to add to my point- another post of “rumor has it they will be > chopped”…. Yes there are people who just remove bolts, W.
Sara, the bolt removal post refers to a climbing area, not a canyon/ canyoneering. It has long been (IMHO) settled that it is highly disrespectful to add bolts to an already established climbing route without the “permission” of the first ascent party, or at least the local community…
How many canyons you established have been chopped?
-tom(w)
canyoncrazy
Ram, you know me so well! How did you know it was me not Joe? Haha And to add to my point- another post of “rumor has it they will be chopped”. Bolts were put in and now are going to be removed by an anti-bolt-nazi group. They were put in for safty and are going to be chopped. Yes there are people who just remove bolts, W.
I miss you Ram, when is your next trip to AZ?
canyoncrazy
It was Sara I spend 8 mindless hours at work and little things roll around in my head as I’m changing tires. This was one of those things.
Mr W, I am aware of your 3 points, and I do agree on most parts. But, That guide book author recently placed a new bolt in a roost canyon, Mindbender (I think) and it was instantly pulled. YES there are people who run around pulling bolts and in some places a simple bolt would clean up an unsightly mess of webbing. Yes I can name a few who will pull any bolts when they find them, except from Zion- they leave those. Those people brag about it.
Personally the trade off of 40’+ of webbing verses one bolt-color matched to the rock seams to be no contest in witch one is less harmful to the canyon. The webbing becomes trash and countless times it gets left in the canyon after it is useless. We, actually I, always end up carrying out webbing as well as other trash in all of the canyons that we have done. (me because my pack is usually lighter)
I agree with not placing bolts in “natural anchor” canyons, but when the anchor washes away and there is no alternative, then what? Joe and I have done many canyons where the anchor has vanished, both natural and bolted. He usually sends me down first, I inspect, give the “ok” and then he follows. We have had to ferry rocks down from an upper part of a canyon because the deadman had washed away in a canyon near Deer Range. The deadman was a nice pile of rocks on the bottom of a 70′ rappel, it had washed over the rappel in a flood earlier that year. We ended up finishing the canyon after sunset because of the time it took to move large rocks from above the final rap to the rappel for the deadman. No big deal, we always have lights, but it did make for a really long day!
As for the troll on Heaps and Sundance, it is just my little way of saying “this is stupid and it will get someone killed some day- stop pulling already placed bolts please, if you don’t like them then don’t use them- any of them”. You, I and many other skilled people on this site are well prepared to do what ever to find anchors to avoid placing bolts. However It was much better rappeling off a bolt for a 120′ drop, rather than stringing up 90′ of webbing, It looked so much better when it was fixed. As well as a safty factor added to the 350′ drop with the use of bolts rather than 100’+ of webbing- would you agree Mr. W?
Get better fast Tom! and when are you coming to AZ???
adkramoo
Hey Tom…how do you know it wasn’t Sara? Thanks for defining where most the concerns are for us fruitcakes, rather than the emotional pigeon holing that seems to be in season. More on that later.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tom” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
Sorry but I really needed to say this. . .
Joe,
You bring some really good points, but I don’t think that was the gist > of the thread (unless I totally missed it).
I think there are very few people who are fully anti-bolt. Those who > are will have to take take not to be “offended” by choosing their > canyons carefully to avoid them.
Anti-bolters IMHO are 1) Against the proliferation of bolts in canyons > that have previously been done *without* them. 2) the placement of > bolts in “new” canyons where there are good natural anchor > possibilities, and 3) In areas where there is a trend towards not > bolting. In general, they should be used with restraint, and when > placed, done with skill and quality hardware. No one is advocating > building a cairn on the Bird’s Perch…
Your points against rope grooves and webbing are well taken, and I > agree that there is a trade-off between Webbing Litter and Bolt > Litter. Where the “correct” balance is struck I don’t presume to know. > I too find 40′ of strung webbing disturbing….
As for puling bolts, I don’t think anyone is running around madly > pulling bolts in canyons. Bolts that get pulled are usually those > placed in canyons previously descended by other means. You may get the > occasional tit-for-tat war between two personalities who feel wronged > by the other… It would be an interesting poll.
As for bolts pulled from documented canyons leading to injury – there > is certainly that possibility. I would hope that even the staunchest > anti-bolter would leave those.
In conclusion, although the thread has many interesting points I would > classify it as ONE BIG RESURGENT TROLL, and urge you not to lose sleep > over it.
-tom(w) >
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyoncrazy” wrote:
Sorry but I really needed to say this. . .
Joe,
You bring some really good points, but I don’t think that was the gist of the thread (unless I totally missed it).
I think there are very few people who are fully anti-bolt. Those who are will have to take take not to be “offended” by choosing their canyons carefully to avoid them.
Anti-bolters IMHO are 1) Against the proliferation of bolts in canyons that have previously been done *without* them. 2) the placement of bolts in “new” canyons where there are good natural anchor possibilities, and 3) In areas where there is a trend towards not bolting. In general, they should be used with restraint, and when placed, done with skill and quality hardware. No one is advocating building a cairn on the Bird’s Perch…
Your points against rope grooves and webbing are well taken, and I agree that there is a trade-off between Webbing Litter and Bolt Litter. Where the “correct” balance is struck I don’t presume to know. I too find 40′ of strung webbing disturbing….
As for puling bolts, I don’t think anyone is running around madly pulling bolts in canyons. Bolts that get pulled are usually those placed in canyons previously descended by other means. You may get the occasional tit-for-tat war between two personalities who feel wronged by the other… It would be an interesting poll.
As for bolts pulled from documented canyons leading to injury – there is certainly that possibility. I would hope that even the staunchest anti-bolter would leave those.
In conclusion, although the thread has many interesting points I would classify it as ONE BIG RESURGENT TROLL, and urge you not to lose sleep over it.
-tom(w)