Canyoneering, canyoning, slot canyonsDid Pandora’s over the weekend. Sand has changed since early last year….some stuff harder, some easier. 1 log jam collapsed in winter since our November trip. If you stay high, no difference. If you go low, a little easier walking.
Kip took his friends down the traditional entrance. Ryan and I decided to check out what looked like a 4th class entrance on the aerials (thinking we could save time by not having all 10 of us rapping those first 4 raps). 10 minutes walkdown, drops you out right at the end of the narrows below the high mae west section. We then upclimbed to meet them at the end of the 4th rap (the nasty one off the chockstone wedged in the chimney/stem). It took them another 30 minutes to get down to us AFTER we upclimbed back to them.
On the way back down, Bo and I successfully stayed low in the mae west section, completing it at ground level. 2 snug cruxes for me. One right as you get into it, the other nearly under the chockstone. I made it at 195# but with no harness or helmet. Bo made it with all his gear and stuff on.
The single rap in the middle of the canyon in the dark silo is about ready for a rebuild. Go prepared to do it.
Has anyone ever downclimbed the entirety of the 2nd to last rap? I was very tempted this trip. Enter as soon as the crack develops, then as it starts to splay, work back into the undercut where it is less off-width. Next time, I’ll probably do it with a belay. It always looks different from the bottom.
bomabro84738
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “sherpa_sherpa” wrote:
It is in these cruxes where partners can be most useful. Thanks again Bo for that 2″ pull forward!
No problem Matt! Thanks for a great day! I wondered when you decided to come through how it’d work out? Where you got wedged a tad was near the end and at almost the same place that my helmet got stuck and I couldn’t reach up to release it! It was pretty constrictive at that spot! Thank you, Kip grouop for a fun day!
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “sherpa_sherpa” wrote: > Are you comparing me in size to Rich? I’ve got a steak dinner that says I can squeeze through a smaller crack than he can.
Who me? 😉 Tryin to cause trouble? All I know is he did fine. He stayed up in a lot of those low stems, before the big one you went low in and he went high on the downclimb into the small pot, with the sling hanging down.
> Don’t forget Putiak.
Right you are!! How could I forget Stuckman!! Although I can’t recall him getting stuck in that canyon.
> Greg this weekend gambled and Pandora called his bluff more than once…..my understanding is, it is only with some luck and skill he is not still there, becoming an odiferous obstacle for the next group through. lol.
Do I know this fellow? Got pictures? 😉 Ha ha!
sherpa_sherpa
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
This was very spot on by Matt, who I have seen get through some places one would not think possible. That said, Jonas, many folks larger than you have made it through Pandora’s comfortably. Matt is one. Rich Carlson another. Most impressive of all, big Rob Heineman made it through too. He styled it as I recall. Jonas, you should have no problem whatsoever in there. Enjoy. > R
Are you comparing me in size to Rich? I’ve got a steak dinner that says I can squeeze through a smaller crack than he can.
Don’t forget Putiak.
Greg this weekend gambled and Pandora called his bluff more than once…..my understanding is, it is only with some luck and skill he is not still there, becoming an odiferous obstacle for the next group through. lol.
Jonas Fast
Thanks Matt & Ram! I rather go low and squeeze than being high if I have the choice
J
_______________ Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009
adkramoo
This was very spot on by Matt, who I have seen get through some places one would not think possible. That said, Jonas, many folks larger than you have made it through Pandora’s comfortably. Matt is one. Rich Carlson another. Most impressive of all, big Rob Heineman made it through too. He styled it as I recall. Jonas, you should have no problem whatsoever in there. Enjoy. R
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “sherpa_sherpa” wrote:
>Jonas Fast wrote:
what chest circumference/width is connected with those 195#?
All of it.
For me too, the critical dimension is chest and ribs, and not butt and gut. I’m 42.5″ around, at sternum level. I used to be 6′-1″ but I think always being thought of as the Sherpa and carrying heavy loads has resulted in my current height if 6′ even. That should give you an idea of my proportions.
BUT, as Ram noted, the human body can conform surprisingly well for being semi-rigid. I dare say as important as being in the right size range, is being able to maintain the right frame of mind. The ability to stave off the beast even when you see it dancing in the shadows of your mind. Remaining calm, even after that “oh crap, I can’t move” moment when you can no longer advance or retreat.
Exhaling expands the chest too, and makes it more rigid. This is a myth, and doesn’t work. You have to relax, breathe calmly and shallow….practically meditating….and your body will mold somewhat around the rocks allowing you to pass. Freak out at this point and you very well might get stuck. This “relaxation” strategy works much better for elevator type places than horizontal, because in addition to worrying about breathing, you also have to worry about locomotion.
I have been immobilized (stuck) much more often not from tightness and friction, but instead the inability to generate sufficient force in the direction opposite which I want to move. Sometimes in really tight spots you can only push against one wall or the other….this is not overly conducive to moving parallel to them.
It is in these cruxes where partners can be most useful. Thanks again Bo for that 2″ pull forward! >
sherpa_sherpa
>Jonas Fast wrote:
what chest circumference/width is connected with those 195#?
All of it.
For me too, the critical dimension is chest and ribs, and not butt and gut. I’m 42.5″ around, at sternum level. I used to be 6′-1″ but I think always being thought of as the Sherpa and carrying heavy loads has resulted in my current height if 6′ even. That should give you an idea of my proportions.
BUT, as Ram noted, the human body can conform surprisingly well for being semi-rigid. I dare say as important as being in the right size range, is being able to maintain the right frame of mind. The ability to stave off the beast even when you see it dancing in the shadows of your mind. Remaining calm, even after that “oh crap, I can’t move” moment when you can no longer advance or retreat.
Exhaling expands the chest too, and makes it more rigid. This is a myth, and doesn’t work. You have to relax, breathe calmly and shallow….practically meditating….and your body will mold somewhat around the rocks allowing you to pass. Freak out at this point and you very well might get stuck. This “relaxation” strategy works much better for elevator type places than horizontal, because in addition to worrying about breathing, you also have to worry about locomotion.
I have been immobilized (stuck) much more often not from tightness and friction, but instead the inability to generate sufficient force in the direction opposite which I want to move. Sometimes in really tight spots you can only push against one wall or the other….this is not overly conducive to moving parallel to them.
It is in these cruxes where partners can be most useful. Thanks again Bo for that 2″ pull forward!
Jonas Fast
Hi,
For curiosity, what chest circumference/width is connected with those 195#? Squeezing is often limited by widest body part not malleable, the chest in my case…
Waiting for Pandora’s.
J
To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: adkramoo@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 22:31:56 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: ~TR – Pandora’s
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Matt Smith” wrote:
>
On the way back down, Bo and I successfully stayed low in the mae west section, completing it at ground level. 2 snug cruxes for me. One right as you get into it, the other nearly under the chockstone. I made it at 195# but with no harness or helmet. Bo made it with all his gear and stuff on.
>
_______________ Get quick access to your favorite MSN content with Internet Explorer 8. http://ie8.msn.com/microsoft/internet-explorer-8/en-us/ie8.aspx?ocid=B037MSN55C0701A
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Matt Smith” wrote:
> On the way back down, Bo and I successfully stayed low in the mae west section, completing it at ground level. 2 snug cruxes for me. One right as you get into it, the other nearly under the chockstone. I made it at 195# but with no harness or helmet. Bo made it with all his gear and stuff on.
!! I saw last September that it was more open than in past years and wondered. Nice job! Folks in the future should expect that this will close up again sometime. Assume nothing
> It should be noted that the default is stemming up and over, and not at ground level, so a blockage at ground level does not necessarily mean a dead end.
It should also be noted, that staying low means on one’s side, generally with the arms outstretched ahead, dragging your pack on a leash snake style; not scooting sideways. A meth addict might make it through standing (till the chockstone located 3 feet above the bottom). Everyone else, it’s either over or under.
I’m guessing the horizontal distance to be covered is in the neighborhood of 70 feet, though for a good part of that you can proceed standing.
The trick is knowing you can make it, then making it. From the position you describe, laying on the ground, reversing would be a nightmare. Transitioning to standing position would be harder and if you do succeed, it is so tight, that flopping to the ground facing the other way and retreating that way would be the best course perhaps. Seventy feet long, seems about right. Some small folks have tried this in the past, when the sand was higher and some more obstacles were in there low. Denise Manweiler and Scott Holly come to mind immediately. Both made it half way or a bit further and retreated. The stem isn’t too hard, but does get you up around 35 feet and the initial moves off the ground are the hardest part, the walls being vertical, with minor bulges, making it even harder. Great canyon. R
Matt Smith
> On the way back down, Bo and I successfully stayed low in the mae west section, completing it at ground level. 2 snug cruxes for me. One right as you get into it, the other nearly under the chockstone. I made it at 195# but with no harness or helmet. Bo made it with all his gear and stuff on.
!! I saw last September that it was more open than in past years and wondered. Nice job! Folks in the future should expect that this will close up again sometime. Assume nothing
It should be noted that the default is stemming up and over, and not at ground level, so a blockage at ground level does not necessarily mean a dead end.
It should also be noted, that staying low means on one’s side, generally with the arms outstretched ahead, dragging your pack on a leash snake style; not scooting sideways. A meth addict might make it through standing (till the chockstone located 3 feet above the bottom). Everyone else, it’s either over or under.
I’m guessing the horizontal distance to be covered is in the neighborhood of 70 feet, though for a good part of that you can proceed standing.
Courtney
Aaaah, thanks for the correction Ram and Matt. I fixed it. That was a very funky spot — I had some trouble doing it gracefully myself.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
Enjoyed the pictures and TR. It is under Capitol Reef heading. > The place I cracked the helmet was the subway downclimb. I was being captured by 2 guys, one of them on your trip, which will be left unnamed. 😉 Two guys tried to catch me on the same side and out I fell the other way. Helmet cracked on the rim 2 inches. I also had a cracked elbow as a bonus. Happened FreezeFest 2004. First time through for Kip, Matt and crew.
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Courtney” wrote:
Yep, that’s the rappel. And the canyon was bone-dry, except for a tiny pool at the very beginner, which one could easily jump over.
I just finished putting pictures of both Pandora’s and Cassidy Canyon on my website, if folks wanna check ’em out.
http://www.backcountry-explorer.com
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Matt Smith” wrote:
> Kip took his friends down the traditional entrance. Ryan and I decided to check out what looked like a 4th class entrance on the aerials (thinking we could save time by not having all 10 of us rapping those first 4 raps). 10 minutes walkdown, drops you out right at the end of the narrows below the high mae west section. We then upclimbed to meet them at the end of the 4th rap (the nasty one off the chockstone wedged in the chimney/stem). It took them another 30 minutes to get down to us AFTER we upclimbed back to them.
Is this north of the regular entry?
> On the way back down, Bo and I successfully stayed low in the mae west section, completing it at ground level. 2 snug cruxes for me. One right as you get into it, the other nearly under the chockstone. I made it at 195# but with no harness or helmet. Bo made it with all his gear and stuff on.
!! I saw last September that it was more open than in past years and wondered. Nice job! Folks in the future should expect that this will close up again sometime. Assume nothing
> The single rap in the middle of the canyon in the dark silo is about ready for a rebuild. Go prepared to do it.
The 2nd picture? That one?
> http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0412last/index1.htm
Has anyone ever downclimbed the entirety of the 2nd to last rap? I was very tempted this trip. Enter as soon as the crack develops, then as it starts to splay, work back into the undercut where it is less off-width. Next time, I’ll probably do it with a belay. It always looks different from the bottom.
Thought it doable. Some baaaaad rock. Be careful. Thanks for the TR and conditions. I assume the one round pool, mid canyon was dry, so you didn’t mention it?
> R
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “sherpa_sherpa” wrote:
Is this north of the regular entry?
NE. There is also a promising looking one to the ESE, that would deposit you in the same area of the canyon, between the first series of raps, and the 5th mandatory one.
The ESE entry/exit was used a lot when the canyon was being explored (Ryan, Stevee, Hank etc.). The upper and lower sections were explored separately, using this access, if I got it right.
> The single rap in the middle of the canyon in the dark silo is about ready for a rebuild. Go prepared to do it.
The 2nd picture? That one?
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0412last/index1.htm
> Yes, that is the place. The current webbing (black, no tracer) isn’t extended quite far enough, so the rapid can get wedged in the crack…rubbing the webbing on the rock. 6 inches more would solve the problem, although notably make an already awkward start even more awkward.
It is a terribly awkward spot. Too narrow to even pick up the webbing or robe without contorting and then getting turned around the right direction (Facing upcanyon) to get on the rope is even worse. Courtesy rappel helps….a little. ;-0. So sorry I couldn’t join you fellas, but by the times I hear it took you, I couldn’t have kept up anyway! 😉 R
adkramoo
Enjoyed the pictures and TR. It is under Capitol Reef heading. The place I cracked the helmet was the subway downclimb. I was being captured by 2 guys, one of them on your trip, which will be left unnamed. 😉 Two guys tried to catch me on the same side and out I fell the other way. Helmet cracked on the rim 2 inches. I also had a cracked elbow as a bonus. Happened FreezeFest 2004. First time through for Kip, Matt and crew.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Courtney” wrote:
Yep, that’s the rappel. And the canyon was bone-dry, except for a tiny pool at the very beginner, which one could easily jump over.
I just finished putting pictures of both Pandora’s and Cassidy Canyon on my website, if folks wanna check ’em out.
http://www.backcountry-explorer.com
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Matt Smith” wrote:
> Kip took his friends down the traditional entrance. Ryan and I decided to check out what looked like a 4th class entrance on the aerials (thinking we could save time by not having all 10 of us rapping those first 4 raps). 10 minutes walkdown, drops you out right at the end of the narrows below the high mae west section. We then upclimbed to meet them at the end of the 4th rap (the nasty one off the chockstone wedged in the chimney/stem). It took them another 30 minutes to get down to us AFTER we upclimbed back to them.
Is this north of the regular entry?
> On the way back down, Bo and I successfully stayed low in the mae west section, completing it at ground level. 2 snug cruxes for me. One right as you get into it, the other nearly under the chockstone. I made it at 195# but with no harness or helmet. Bo made it with all his gear and stuff on.
!! I saw last September that it was more open than in past years and wondered. Nice job! Folks in the future should expect that this will close up again sometime. Assume nothing
> The single rap in the middle of the canyon in the dark silo is about ready for a rebuild. Go prepared to do it.
The 2nd picture? That one?
http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0412last/index1.htm
Has anyone ever downclimbed the entirety of the 2nd to last rap? I was very tempted this trip. Enter as soon as the crack develops, then as it starts to splay, work back into the undercut where it is less off-width. Next time, I’ll probably do it with a belay. It always looks different from the bottom.
Thought it doable. Some baaaaad rock. Be careful. Thanks for the TR and conditions. I assume the one round pool, mid canyon was dry, so you didn’t mention it?
R
>
sherpa_sherpa
The helmet crack was actually at the spot we used the webbing, at the beginning of the little subway section.
sherpa_sherpa
Is this north of the regular entry?
NE. There is also a promising looking one to the ESE, that would deposit you in the same area of the canyon, between the first series of raps, and the 5th mandatory one.
> The single rap in the middle of the canyon in the dark silo is about ready for a rebuild. Go prepared to do it.
The 2nd picture? That one? > http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0412last/index1.htm
Yes, that is the place. The current webbing (black, no tracer) isn’t extended quite far enough, so the rapid can get wedged in the crack…rubbing the webbing on the rock. 6 inches more would solve the problem, although notably make an already awkward start even more awkward.
Courtney
Yep, that’s the rappel. And the canyon was bone-dry, except for a tiny pool at the very beginner, which one could easily jump over.
I just finished putting pictures of both Pandora’s and Cassidy Canyon on my website, if folks wanna check ’em out.
http://www.backcountry-explorer.com
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Matt Smith” wrote:
> Kip took his friends down the traditional entrance. Ryan and I decided to check out what looked like a 4th class entrance on the aerials (thinking we could save time by not having all 10 of us rapping those first 4 raps). 10 minutes walkdown, drops you out right at the end of the narrows below the high mae west section. We then upclimbed to meet them at the end of the 4th rap (the nasty one off the chockstone wedged in the chimney/stem). It took them another 30 minutes to get down to us AFTER we upclimbed back to them.
Is this north of the regular entry?
> On the way back down, Bo and I successfully stayed low in the mae west section, completing it at ground level. 2 snug cruxes for me. One right as you get into it, the other nearly under the chockstone. I made it at 195# but with no harness or helmet. Bo made it with all his gear and stuff on.
!! I saw last September that it was more open than in past years and wondered. Nice job! Folks in the future should expect that this will close up again sometime. Assume nothing
> The single rap in the middle of the canyon in the dark silo is about ready for a rebuild. Go prepared to do it.
The 2nd picture? That one? > http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0412last/index1.htm
Has anyone ever downclimbed the entirety of the 2nd to last rap? I was very tempted this trip. Enter as soon as the crack develops, then as it starts to splay, work back into the undercut where it is less off-width. Next time, I’ll probably do it with a belay. It always looks different from the bottom.
Thought it doable. Some baaaaad rock. Be careful. Thanks for the TR and conditions. I assume the one round pool, mid canyon was dry, so you didn’t mention it? > R >
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Matt Smith” wrote:
> Kip took his friends down the traditional entrance. Ryan and I decided to check out what looked like a 4th class entrance on the aerials (thinking we could save time by not having all 10 of us rapping those first 4 raps). 10 minutes walkdown, drops you out right at the end of the narrows below the high mae west section. We then upclimbed to meet them at the end of the 4th rap (the nasty one off the chockstone wedged in the chimney/stem). It took them another 30 minutes to get down to us AFTER we upclimbed back to them.
Is this north of the regular entry?
> On the way back down, Bo and I successfully stayed low in the mae west section, completing it at ground level. 2 snug cruxes for me. One right as you get into it, the other nearly under the chockstone. I made it at 195# but with no harness or helmet. Bo made it with all his gear and stuff on.
!! I saw last September that it was more open than in past years and wondered. Nice job! Folks in the future should expect that this will close up again sometime. Assume nothing
> The single rap in the middle of the canyon in the dark silo is about ready for a rebuild. Go prepared to do it.
The 2nd picture? That one? http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/0412last/index1.htm
> Has anyone ever downclimbed the entirety of the 2nd to last rap? I was very tempted this trip. Enter as soon as the crack develops, then as it starts to splay, work back into the undercut where it is less off-width. Next time, I’ll probably do it with a belay. It always looks different from the bottom.
Thought it doable. Some baaaaad rock. Be careful. Thanks for the TR and conditions. I assume the one round pool, mid canyon was dry, so you didn’t mention it? R