undisclosed canyons

Perhaps I was inconsiderate to start a discussion knowing I wouldn’t frequently participate in; I apologize. My opinions bounce around in the muddled middle ground Luke talks about, while openly I’m secret or extremely vague about the places I treasure; whether they’re published elsewhere or not.

Being a self imposed anti-socialite, I have benefited from the open sharing of information(though, the canyon that inspired this thread was simply stumbled upon; no photos or whispers lured me). I have enjoyed many fine days thanks to people like Luke. I also respect the motivation of folks like M. Kelsey who are making a living sharing their accumulated knowledge. It would be hypocritical of me to push a secrecy only agenda. While I’d rather not see signs of more people every time I return to a favorite spot, that’s the way of the world and I’m also part of the “problem”. Arguably, the more people who know about a beautiful place, are more people likely to fight for it’s preservation. On the other hand, we humans can significantly impact the landscape; especially the fragile ecosystems of the CO Plateau. So what to do? I don’t feel it’s right to “lock up” our public lands for the sake of preservation if no body is able to appreciate them. However, I strongly agree with having some unique places completely off limits(though I feel that Goose Ck., for instance, isn’t the best choice).

I will continue to maintain my quiet stance and let knowledge of “new” places filter through as it always has.

Luca, I don’t share your(hopefully comically intended) views of macho-ism. My experience with those types of individuals has been people who are loud and boastful of their “conquest” of all the canyons they “did” last weekend, not the ones who keep their experiences quiet. As for your thoughts that “…one can always find another MORE DELICATE canyon out there.”, I’d be cautious, considering how damn many of us humans are on this planet of limited space, there will eventually not be any more to find. -Adam — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “lucaadv” wrote:

> In Europe we don’t have problems sharing information on canyons, on the contrary, we enjoy to share the fun. In the USA, especially Arizona, people have the tendency to be secretive. Why is that?

Usually the better a canyon is, the more reason to keep it secret. > They will justify it with altrustic reasons such as “to protect the canyon”, “too dangerous”, “endangered wildlife”, etc. Of course, this is all bullshit, one can always find a MORE SPECTACULAR, MORE DEADLY or MORE DELICATE canyon out there.

Then why so much secrecy? The answer is genetics! > My theory (unconfirmed) is that the smaller the genitalia of a canyoneer, in general, the bigger the need to keep a canyon secret and control its access. The most disgraced go a step further and wish “canyoning” itself was secret, as they don’t like the community growing with more individuals that may some day find and descend “their” canyons.

I personally feel great respect for folk that share canyon beta (free or paid). People like Chris Brennen, Tom Jones, Luke, Shane, and yes, even evil Rich Carlson! These are heroes that invested big time finding canyons and opted to share their beta with others. Some people hate them for that, but it is thanks to them that we can leverage their knowledge and do new canyons now and then. By thw way, leveraging knowledge is how humanity has advanced since the dark ages.

To all of these heros, my most sincere THANK YOU from me and the rest of the canyoning community! Even the ones that complain about it, I’m sure they too have used your beta now and then.

On the other hand, I have no respect for the people that tries to keep a canyon secret and then complains when someone posts about it. Regardless of who discovered the canyon first or what women think of your genitalia… if you do not own the land IT’S NOT YOUR CANYON! > Therefore you have NO claim on who access it, posts about it or bolts it! Keep bitching about it and all you may gain is a complimentary penis enlargement kit… I’m warning you!

-Luca

— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:

>>Luke, so you don’t like the Sierra Canyons approach of “invite only” for their beta? It’s a long tradition for many “clubs”.

As a long time beta sprayer I believe a riff-raff barrier of some type goes a long ways in maintaining a more positive canyon experience.

Invite Only

Pay-per-view

Membership Login

Club

Forum membership

From my experience I’ve noticed people just respect the canyon more if there is the extra step involved or if they consider themselves to be part of something. When it’s just “free” and available to any fool with goggle it has a tendency to get trashed. All of the systems mentioned above provide a method of delivering your ethics message along with admittance, they also help create a better sense of belonging, which has a positive effect on the canyons.

Even if your site is free and you just create a user login before seeing the goodies you will help create a sense of community and you will notice an improvement in the quality of the new canyon routes you post.

I’m all for sharing beta, I just like to make sure it’s in the hands of people that will respect what they have been given access to.

Anyhoo…. that’s my 2 cents… YMMV…

Shane Burrows

Climb-Utah.com

http://Climb-Utah.com

Yes, Luke, I’m still around; though the computer world isn’t my current priority, hauling wood and canning apples for winter are. I’ve been enjoying the discussion when I can get online but haven’t made time to comment, but I will.

— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Luke Galyan wrote:

Dean, I in no way shape or form did I intend to attack or insult you. If that is how you took it, I appologize sincerely. My posts were never meant to trap you, or anyone for that matter. That is not how I operate. I did not lure you or anyone else into comments so I could whip them. I bit on Adam’s question and opened myself up. When you or someone else responds, that becomes the direction of the thread. I simply responded in a way to clarify my original point that we can argue in this middle ground arean forever. I appologize if it felt as though you were a target. You were not the target, the subject matter was the target.

I did not imply your motives partially motivated by being a big shot. You were the one who brought up the the concept of feeling accepted or feeling like a big shot. I simply elaborated on my view of that. And I mean it when I say it was not aimed directly at you or anyone specifically. In my reply I mentioned we all have egos and liked the stroked. In case I wasn’t clear everyone means me too. I sincerely feel some people are motivated in a large part by the ego side of things. I did not mean to imply that is your only or main motivation. I guess I should have clarified in my response that I was not aiming it at any specific person. Sorry I did not make that clear. You raised that topic and I expanded it with my views.

And yes there has been polite dissagreement or discussion betwee Tom and I and others over this show don’t tell and secret canyon topic. I percieved Tom’s reply yesterday as a product of those discussions. I choose to leave our personal discussions off the Yahoo Group. But when it is brought into public light for me, I am open to the discussion. Tom’s comments were vague enough that he could be referring to someone else who he has had simmilar disputes with? If that is the case shame on Tom for being vague and shame on me for assuming.

The majority of the people I regularly canyon with do not share my passionate views on show don’t tell or secret canyons. So I don’t really have a dog in this fight either. With the combination of feeling passiionate about this and being a minority (or at least I feel like a minority) yes I am fired up a bit.

And I also am not a major player in the community. I attend a very small portion of group events, typically canyon with the same people and am on only one forum (this one) and rarely post or even read everything. So a big player is maybe something others percieve since I have a web site? It is not hard to make a web site and any Yahoo can make one in a short period of time. This does not make me a big player.

And nope I don’t feel like the Oboma of the canyon community. You live by your values and views and I will live by mine. Where those views clash, well then there can be issues and time will determin the outcome. All I ask is that each side show respect for other peoples views. While my view of sharring differs from others, I make a specific point to hold true to my word on solemn vows but also try to steer clear of them as it complicates my life. I also do not engage in sneaky tactics to get information so I can give it away. If infornmation comes with a condition (real or implied) I decline access to that information. If I obtain information in a public domain then I feel free to use it as I see fit.

Luke

P.S. > Where is this Adam guy? Adam are you out there? Knock knock? Or have you faded into the shadows after asking you very obviously controversial question?

Sent from my phone

evergreen_dean wrote:

>Luke,

Not convinced. Your last response was a bit more polite but I find it interesting that you are so quick to advise Tom that implied name calling will degrade the discussion to a non-productive level, yet you had no problem implying that perhaps I made the friends I have as an ego boost or just to be a big shot. I resisted a more aggressive defense yesterday as it is apparent that I stepped into a trap. I think this discussion is most likely the product of a dispute you have been involved in recently, perhaps with Tom. You are fired up and eager to publicly defend your position and I became your whipping boy.

I am not as big a player in this community as you are, so I don’t really have a dog in this fight. Perhaps you see yourself as the Obama of the canyon world, doing your best to redistribute the canyon wealth. I feel no such need but don’t begrudge your being the messiah to the downtrodden, social misfit canyoneers of the world. I have taken in plenty of strays myself, but that is not my chosen cause.

I share pictures and stories of cool canyons I have seen because I love to share. I share as much as I can without violating the trust of the folks who so generously shared them with me. I also want to share these special places and the pictures and stories generate interest, allowing me to go back and do exactly that. And yes, a bit of it may be ego driven…I’m human. One thing is for sure though, I love canyoneering as much as you do and if I were the last man on Earth I would still be doing it. No need to question my motives for canyoneering because I was honest about my reasons for approving of the show don’t tell policy.

I hope you resolve your feud but perhaps you can be a bit more direct instead of luring folks to give their opinion then target them to make your point. I respect your opinion and perhaps some day mine will change, but I won’t try to insult you for not agreeing with me.

Dean

— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:

>> Actually no I don’t like the invite only approach. As I said, I do see

> value in forcing new people into the community and see value in the intimate

> sharing style (seeing the “new” in their eyes you speak of). I agree that

> these are good things and are a result of show don’t tell, which is

> essentially an invite only set up. Simply because many “clubs” are set up

> that way does not mean I fell it is right. I still feel the exclusive

> nature of it can prevent good people from seeing some wonderful places and

> feel left out or not good enough or.. I think this exclusive nature is the

> bad side that outweighs the good sides.

>

>

>> If things are kept secret then this topic is null and void, since no one

> knows about it and will never feel left out. But once pics and stories are

> put out publicly you have placed value (real or imagined) on these places in

> the minds of others. That value will entice people to want to go check em

> out. Put a “must be taller than this line” condition on it and you will

> ultimately hurt a sub set of the population.

>

>

>> You said you have been on the winning and losing end of the invite only club

> thing. So at times you felt a warm fuzzy and accepted and other times you

> felt left out or unlucky or whatever. Some people have a charisma about

> them that allows them easy entry into clubs like that. Others lack the

> social skills to get invited. So some will have a good experience with it,

> others will always feel left out and yet others like yourself will feel the

> good / bad ebb and flow of it. My point is that all this stuff doesn’t need

> to exist at all. Secret is secret and share is share. Somewhere in the

> middle gets all muddled just like this conversation will. From every point

> that is argued in this middle ground it is easy to spawn multiple other

> related but separate discussions. The possibilities are like counting

> stars.. almost endless.

>

>

>> You asked if the show don’t tell concept has value for canyons. I am not

> trying to set out the definitive works of how I view this stuff. But a

> quick and dirty rundown of some basic thoughts is a good way to further

> illustrate how crazy and unending all this middle of the road stuff can

> get…..

>

>

>> XX — Keeping the numbers down.

>> Well if we were all spread out in more canyons then impacts could be less.

> Or if we limit the growing canyon community to a specific set of canyons we

> can hammer the hell out of the canyons and save the good stuff for

> ourselves. But wait, in time those new people will become accepted just as

> we are accepted now and the “preserved” canyons will see us and the new

> canyoneers that come of age. And they will eventually invite their friends

> too. So in the end even the show don’t tell stuff doesn’t really protect a

> canyon. Secrecy can possibly protect it? But this middle ground stuff

> eventually buckles and no matter how you slice it the canyon gets traffic.

> It is just time you are buying not a true solution.

>

>

>> XX — Passing the ethics along.

>> Now that is a difficult thing to do no matter how you share or don’t share a

> canyon. Again time is all you are buying. You can pass on the ethics all

> you want person to person but eventually a friend invites a friend who

> doesn’t get it. Then that friend returns with other friends and poof you

> have bad ethics in the mix. A rock fin in the Dantes is a great example of

> that. A fin that some people use as an anchor then flick the rope off of

> it, is now almost sawed in half. Someone used the fin as an anchor then

> decided to not flick the rope off the fin and instead pull the rope over it.

> Well I got a picture showing this thing is now almost in half. And this was

> found just BEFORE the beta was published. So sharing via show don’t tell

> allowed ethics to be shared person to person but eventually it does break

> down. So again it is a way to buy time but not a real solution.

>

>

>> XX — Safety issue for some canyons.

>> Well there is no real cure for that except secrecy either. If it is secret

> and no one goes then everyone is safe right? Or do they just run over and

> do Choprock and be safe there? Show don’t tell still eventually breaks

> down and you have unqualified people in the canyons. It is hard to convey

> all the safety concerns and dictate skill requirements via word of mouth

> over the Chinese telephone of the show don’t tell world. Sure you could

> hype the canyon as harder than it is just to keep people out and safer. But

> what happens when people start to realize you make it sound hard to keep

> them safe. Well people start to not trust what you tell them about safety

> or difficulty thinking you are amping it up. Kinda like crying wolf. At

> least with written beta you can attempt to keep the safety and skill stuff

> included with the information. A person who was shown a place via show

> don’t tell may remember the words “blah blah blah” when they try to think

> about what they were told about safety but remember all the “holy cow that

> was cool” moments while on their visit. So safety can get lost in

> translation. With written beta it is possible that people will over look or

> glaze over when reading safety warnings, but at least it was there and they

> can’t blame a friend for not giving them the whole story. I think show

> don’t tell is actually inferior to written beta for safety reasons.

>

>

>> XX — Protecting the environment.

>> Lets say a canyon has these wonderful little frogs or some really nice

> ferns. Well let’s keep people out so we can protect it. Wait protect it

> for who or what? Everyone else? While me and my group keep revisiting it

> because it is so cool but keeping others out to protect it? Now that sounds

> fair and very un-exclusive to me….. NOT!

>

>

>> Or should we ALL stay out of it to protect it? Well what are we protecting

> it for if we do that? If the special item say a plant is one of the rarest

> on the planet and shown only to exist in that specific canyon, then maybe we

> have a reason for all of us to stay out (yup everyone). But that rarely is

> the case. Saying you don’t get to see many of these is NOT the same as

> saying this is an endangered species. So if I am not trampling the last one

> on the planet, then who am I protecting it for? Mother nature herself?

> Well um she don’t care in a sentient being kind of way. So I am protecting

> it from other people for other people. Wait if a tree falls in the woods

> but no one hears it…. Last time I checked we are not from outer space

> visiting some new planet. I live here and from what I can tell my entire

> race evolved here, so I kinda am part of that mother nature thing. That

> doesn’t give me permission to go trample everything simply because I live

> here but the reality is we rarely have a case where we are killing the last

> remaining few of anything.

>

>

>> Poe is a great example of this. There are some cool vegetated spots there

> and some crawdads that you don’t get to see everyday in a canyon setting.

> While in there I thought wow maybe this needs protecting since it is so

> rare. But I started to think seriously about it then went home to play on

> google earth a bit. There are other draingages out there with big alcove

> hanging garden like areas just like Poe. The difference between say Poe and

> these other drainages is they appear to have very little fun tech canyon

> just above them. I would be willing to place money on a bet that there are

> other places right next door to Poe with the same life stuff in em. Even

> Halls Creek had lots of vegetation and would likely have similar stuff in

> it. Will we all go trample those? Nope because there is no tech fun. Us

> canyoneers are after tech fun that’s it. This not so common stuff does

> exist in neighboring areas and is in no danger of being wiped out by our

> travels. I live here and feel it is ok to go see things as long as I am not

> wiping it all out. Those who know me would classify me more as a tree

> hugger type. But I do feel the tree hugging type fails to look at the

> concept that not only do I live here, but I am just as much a part of this

> nature stuff as that lizard who just kicked my ass at climbing the canyon

> wall along side me.

>

>

>> XX — Leaving exploring places

>> I have gotten a lot of joy from exploring and have been very greatful for

> the invites I have gotten to go do just that. Lot’s of exploring in Death

> Valley with Rick’s Crew, I little dabble in my own explore for Strike 2,

> invites for exploratory with John, and even some joint exploring with John

> in a canyon we both were scoping out independently and decided to hook up

> (to be shared when I get time to write it up). These moments have brought

> joy to my life. But leaving it open for exploring works only if you take

> the secret route again. If you go with show don’t tell or some variation of

> it then the info slowly leaks and poof you have people with info and the

> exploring is gone. John brings a good point in that the remote places lend

> themselves to this more easily. But all in all if it isn’t left SECRET then

> the flow of info happens just at a slower pace. For now there are lots of

> little slots near major roads that looky loos like myself can dabble at

> trying to find a fun route to discover (Strike 2 is a great example as it is

> short and has a road at top and bottom). But eventually these will be eaten

> up and those adventurous souls will start looking farther out and eventually

> cover the remote ground and it will end up shared. So it is a nice way to

> buy time but a real solution, not really.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>> Dean you raised some questions so went with them enough to further

> illustrate the point I made in my original post. That point is the middle

> ground has a lot of gray areas and can be argued to death and will never

> die. So while you may feel this way, I feel that way and our neighbor feels

> yet another way; it all comes right back to this middle ground being a

> muddled, mixed up mess of views from both sides getting twisted all

> together. Lots of passion there huh?

>

>

>> I realize that my opinions are not the end all be all correct views. I also

> realize that my views have and likely will still change over time. I have

> recently had a little internal challenge on the concept of sharing due to

> safety concerns with specific canyons. In the end I ended up right back

> where I was and feel sharing is the best policy. My point is I do actually

> listen when I feel myself challenged internally. I feel a lot of people do

> the same thing and ultimately come to a conclusion very different from mine.

> I respect those around me, rather I agree with them or not. I hope others

> can extend the same courtesy to me. I enjoy an occasional discussion that

> challenges me with someone who is open to being challenged as well and who

> is not out to force their agenda on me.

>

>

>> So all in all I still feel we can play together in areas where our

> conflicting views don’t get in the way. Then play separately when we have

> areas where our views will clash. What you do is your choice and what I do

> is mine. All people will never view everything the same way. Differences

> are inevitable and if you are only friends with those who have the same view

> as yourself, then you may find you have a very small set of friends.

>

>

>> The best thing we can do to get along is be open about our views and willing

> to discuss them with no hostility in the mix. Airing our views can help

> determine when and how we play together so we all love what we are doing.

> So here is a public insight into a tip of my views. Sure hope I didn’t lose

> friends over this. J

>

>

>> Luke

>

>

>> From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of

> evergreen_dean

> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:13 PM

> To: Yahoo Canyons Group

>> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons

>

>

>

>

>> Adam,

>> My suggestion is not to publish beta…yet. Share with friends until the the

> right time comes to let your canyon become public. Seems that a lot of

> canyons go through this progression. The finders gets some time to enjoy it

> with those he/she chooses, and understands that there will be a time when it

> should be released or is simply found by others who have a different view of

> sharing. On that note, do you want to get out and do some Zion canyons? I’m

> available.

>> Luke, so you don’t like the Sierra Canyons approach of “invite only” for

> their beta? It’s a long tradition for many “clubs”. You have to know someone

> or persuade the group that you are worthy. I have been on the winning and

> losing end of that type of arrangement, but for canyons does it have any

> value? Is it a method of keeping the numbers down and making sure that the

> ethic desired by the founder is preserved for a period? Perhaps a safety

> issue for some canyons? Should all clubs of all types be open to all, or is

> it OK that you have to earn membership into some?

>> I wanted acceptance in the canyoneering group(s) because I am impatient. I

> wanted to learn faster and see more than I have probably earned in my short

> time. Does then sharing the stuff I have learned and places I have seen

> stroke my ego? You bet. But I must say that there is also a great joy in

> experiencing that “first time” feeling over and over again through the eyes

> of others. Any parent understands that, and that is not about ego but about

> the love of sharing great experiences.

>> There are folks that use knowledge as power, but in the canyoneering

> community I have not seen it. Seems the only key to access is to show

> genuine interest and don’t be a jackass. In my case, they obviously waived

> the jackass preclusion.

>> — In Yahoo Canyons Group , Luke

> Galyan wrote:

Dean it is interesting that your entire response revolved around the show

> don’t tell issue.

The original poster wanted to know if he should share or not share. He did

> not ask if a show don’t tell was the best way to go. Your response further

> illustrates that the real problem has nothing to to do with sharing or

> keeping things secret. The real issues arise when you dabble somewhere in

> the middle ground. Just thought I would point that out before a reply to

> your post.

Sharing or keeping something totaly secret are oposite ends of the

> spectrum. Ideas and views can be discussed where people choose sides for

> various reasons and continue to consider their views. But that middle ground

> is where all this stuff gets twisted up.

So to add a little banter in the “off topic” direction this thread will

> likely take…….

You mention liking the show don’t tell stuff since it allows you to feel

> accepted into the inner circle. I agree, it does give that feel. What about

> those people who lack the social skills to do what you do or make

> connections with people like you? What about those unlucky few with horrible

> people skills but are overall good and skilled people? Their terrible social

> skills can turn people off preventing an invite. What about the people who

> really want to see these places because of pics and stories but live say in

> Florida and only get to make one canyoneering pilgrimage anually and lack

> the community connections as a result of living so far away? So if you have

> good social skills, you are cool enough to be invited (in the club per se).

> If you live close enough to mingle frequently you can end up on one those

> trips too, letting you feel you’ve made it to the inner circle (or was that

> in the club again?).

You say the show don’t tell also allows you to play big shot and show off

> your knowledge. I agree it does. Everyone loves to have their ego stroked.

> Being able to share a place and play big shot does just that. The problem

> is, you still have the in the club feel but this time you get to be the

> grand puh bah! Woo hoo! And since knowledge like this is a little on the

> exclusive side it can very easily lend itself to being used for power in

> subtle ways. Like being looked up to because you have lots of valuble stuff

> you might pass out if I rub your back. Or the power to dictate who you think

> cool enough to be allowed into the canyon. Sure these things don’t happen

> with everyone but they can easily take place. And when stuff like that does

> take place it is usually kept behind the scenes. Those doing this will argue

> their point hiding behind the same non-disclosure reasons I already

> mentioned in my last post. This hiding behind issues further complicates any

> real ! discussion.

And as a side note I know everyone has an ego and likes it stroked a bit.

> But if you focus a lot of attention on getting to be in the inner circle or

> getting to show off your knowledge and skills so you feel like a big

> shot…………….. why are you canyoneering? Are you in it for the fun

> places and cool friends? Or are you in it because you have a desire to be

> looked up to or accepted? Is the canyon community and its percieved inner

> circle(s) being used as a tool for you to get your ego boost or are you just

> in it for fun, frolic and challenge with good friends? I assume the answer

> would be a mix between the two for most people.

Don’t get me wrong I agree there are good sides to the show don’t tell.

> The good that I see in it is it can encourage new commers to seek out

> community interaction and that is great! I also know that some people enjoy

> sharing on an intimate level which the show don’t tell stuff lends itself

> to. But the overall in the club or I’m the man or let’s pick and choose who

> we think worthy side of things overshadows the good side in my opinion.

I wish to stress one more time that this is still “off topic” from what I

> percieve as the original posters intent. Anyone want to chime in with their

> views on why Adam should spill the beans? Anyone want to chime in with their

> views on why Adam should keep his secrets tucked away? Anyone want to

> convince Adam that maybe he could swirl things all up together and take us

> through in show don’t tell fasion?

I did open up and really rant here. But let’s not lose focus on the fact

> that Adam is asking for help with his dilema.

Thanks for the compliment on my post writting style Dean. This one from my

> phone so will likely not be as nice.

Luke

Sent from my phone

evergreen_dean wrote:

>Nice rant Luke! You write eloquently. Its too bad we don’t hear from you

> more often. This musta hit a nerve.

>

>Personally, I do not have the internal issues you do. In my fourth year,

> I still consider myself fairly new to the sport and getting to see show

> don’t tell canyons makes me feel like I have been allowed into the “inner

> circle”. Makes me feel good. I, in turn, love playing the big shot and

> showing those canyons to others, often folks who have been at it longer than

> myself but just haven’t made the effort to connect with the community that I

> have.

>

>I have one regular partner that insists on keeping all his trips small,

> just inviting two or three folks within his circle. I love going with him,

> but find it interesting that he is generally doing well beta’ed canyons. He

> avoid the large groups that have gotten me so well connected in such a short

> time, and has missed seeing many of these places. I get to be the show off

> and share them with him from time to time.

>

>On the other hand, I love to share and I have a big mouth. I would never

> violate a show don’t tell agreement, but I do have to be careful not to

> tease with pictures and stories. I can barely contain my excitement when I

> return from a great trip in secret canyons, so my tendency is to post

> pictures, rave about how great a canyon was, then say “sorry, it’s secret”.

> Its gotten me hammered on the web more than once.

>

>I like what Sierra Canyons has done. They do not post their beta

> publicly, but they do have it on the web. You must get invited by someone to

> get access. Took me all of two days to get an invite and have folks eager to

> share their secrets. Again, the power of being a friendly, enthusiastic

> pest.

>

>In summary, I love show don’t tell canyons, as long as I get shown. I am

> outgoing enough to make the connections to get into these canyons and I like

> the idea that there are plenty more secrets that will be revealed to me as

> long as I keep showing up and showing interest. I will keep the secrets of

> others, and if I eventually start to explore and find my own secrets, I will

> most certainly be dragging as many friends as will follow to share what I

> have found. Will I piublicly post the beta? I would like to say no but I am

> betting I won’t have the self control if the choice is purely mine.

>

>Thanks for sharing your finds so generously Luke. I have enjoyed them

> immensely.

>

>Dean

>

>

>

>— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Adam

> C” wrote:

>

>

>> I’ve recently been questioning the ethics of keeping certain canyons

> “secret”; its not an easy thing in the internet age with a surge of users in

> the canyoneering community. My personal reasons have been both

> selfish(wanting solitude-hence my “hermit” label) and well founded(i.e.

> biological sensitivity, private property rights, etc.) Arguably all canyons

> have some bio-sensitivity when you look at the impact of a large number of

> users. Whether its from approach route erosion or spreading disease to

> isolated toad populations. I often feel its inevitable that sooner or later

> the secret will be out.

>> I have visited a certain Zion area canyon for many years and have been

> surprised to have not heard it discussed or seen it published on any

> web-guides. Its been bolted for many years, has no access issues(at present)

> and would be a sure favorite of many who have likely looked at it from below

> or at least enjoyed the watery narrows its a tributary to.

>> Should I and others like me tell our secrets? Many will likely be

> offended. Then again, many will enjoy the “new” canyons. Perhaps some

> pressure will be taken off other canyons in the area.

>> So, I’m asking to hear the community member’s opinions before I tell my

> secrets.

>

>

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