Even you Tim?! What is this penchant for “Ram-speak” on this group? I’m certain that you know that “Regretting sharing beta?” is not a sentence, but I know you are a fairly cosmopolitan guy so I’m going to put it down to “When in Rome…Do as the Romans do…” and figure you’re just talking the local talk so you can be understood. ;-)
All kidding aside(gosh I crack myself up)…yeah, there is a small bit of regret. Take a trip through Woody and you’ll see what I mean.
At this time I’m still behind my decision to put out the mini-guide. Without doubt, dozens of people have expressed their delight with some of those canyons (some of the canyons don’t get done much as far as I can tell)and trip reports show that a couple in North Wash have attained almost “trade route” status. Overall, the canyons have been treated well. Of course, all of them have seen traffic which wasn’t there before, so there is evidence of use. The rope grooves in Woody make me sick.
My comment that “you will see the results of your popularizing a canyon” stem from my desire to make the point to anyone who is considering “outing” a canyon. I didn’t think of it sufficiently before I published, and I just wanted others to know that the possibility/probability of seeing damage to a canyon which had previously been what might be called untouched is high. How one processes that is up to the individual.
“Knowing what I know now…” is a difficult question. stefan has given me the option to add to the guide at any time, so that wouldn’t be a constraint. Truth be told, I’m not canyoneering all that much any more and I’m more than satisfied going to do well-established canyons. That said, I’ll answer the question. I don’t know for certain, but I probably will not be publishing any more canyons. If I happen to come across something interesting and actually get up the nerve and energy to do it, I don’t think I will publish it. In such a case, if I felt like I wanted to spread the info on the canyon, I think I would just pass it on by word of mouth.
Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Tim Hoover
Dave > Regretting sharing beta? I know a lot of people are grateful to you for your explorations and subsequent sharing. Knowing what you know now, will you continue to share the results of your discoveries? >  > I have mixed feelings about your second point. If you teach your kid to drive and they are subsequently killed by a drunk driver in a car accident, is it a direct result of your action? More to the point in canyoneering, no canyons are going to be secret forever. They will all be discovered and descended eventually. To the extent that anyone believes in canyoneering ethics any more, perhaps being the initial person to broadcast new canyons will allow one to have some say in the style of descent for future canyoneers. (Unfortunately, even I have a hard time believing this argument. I doubt the pinheads who do the most damage know about, care about, or abide by any sort of canyoneering ethics. Still, it’s a chance) >  > For the record, I have no strong feelings about sharing, not sharing, showing, reporting without telling, etc. I hate to see resource destruction, but if no one ever shared, I would never have entered the sport in the first place and would be poorer for it. >  > Tim
> ________________________________ > From: davewyo1
Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 12:38 PM > Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
> I would point out two things for the general conversation:
1. Ghosting techniques have not been worked out to the extent that the terminology may suggest. Perhaps further work will eliminate many of the problems, but at this time sand bag, sand trap, water trap, and like techniques are causing a certain amount of rope grooves.
2. If you are the one to popularize a canyon, in a short while you will be able to go back and see rope grooves which you can consider to be a direct result of your actions.
Dave
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ratagonia”
The conversation isn’t over (not dead yet…)
Luke’s contributions are long and complex, and take considerable time and effort to digest. I have been very busy, thus have not been able to concentrate the focus they deserve.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Adam C”
> Perhaps I was inconsiderate to start a discussion knowing I wouldn’t frequently participate in; I apologize.Â
>Â My opinions bounce around in the muddled middle ground Luke talks about, while openly I’m secret or extremely vague about the places I treasure; whether they’re published elsewhere or not.
> —
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save > Changes".
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
>
RAM
I agree with Tom. What is wrong with owning responsibility for things? It should make one more careful (sociopaths excepted) about the consequences and Ramifications of one’s choices. That said, I am way (weeks) behind on the group posts and will comment further tomorrow, I hope. Tom and I hold many canyons off the radar. Most of them are canyons shared with us and agreements which we are honoring. Just as these gals and fellas honor ours. Yet Tom has shared more new canyons than anyone who accuses him of being a selfish keeper of secrets. A paradox? And has anyone done ALL the beta’s canyons out there yet? Didn’t think so. And being as big a secret keeper as anyone (lots of different reasons-will touch on that) I will open my first post on the subject informing that I will post a new canyon for you all right after pressing send…to go with the one Tom (Eyedropper) posted a few days back.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Totally serious.
How could it be otherwise?
> Of course, I believe in more than 100% responsibility. The people who visit the canyon are also 100% responsible for their actions. But I am too, for BRINGING these people to this particular canyon.
So, the trails on the sandpile next to Spry from Canyoneers – those are my fault, very much so. Not sure the current trail on there is from canyoneers. Also, it has been a long time since I sent people toward the sandpile, so my current culpability is small, if canyoneers.
However, while I did not FD Spry, I was the first to publish it. So all the grooves and wear and tear in the canyon are on my head. I feel somewhat bad about it, but not real bad. From those grooves, you can see how a guy would want to keep a canyon off the radar to keep this kind of wear and tear from occurring.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi wrote:
Are you being facitous Tom?
Or do you actually beleive this
:
“If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.”
— On Tue, 10/2/12, TomJones wrote:
From: TomJones Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 7:43 AM
No. He did not imply it, he stated it. You make it sound tawdry…
If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.
How could it be otherwise?
Tom
>
TomJones
I think this points to what I feel is an important nuance of the secret/broad-banded ‘debate’-
The best mix is probably some of this / some of that. I am not drawn to release ALL canyons, just as I am not drawn to ‘hold close to my chest’ ALL canyons. Some canyons are especially delicate – these I tend to withhold. Some are particularly robust – these I tend to publish.
Even if I was in a holding mood, Spry would have been released because it was so obvious, being in the middle of Zion and visible to many, many people. Pretty amazing, actually, it was not published before then.
In general, in managing land, esp. Wilderness lands, Managers like to concentrate use as much as possible. The greatest impact is by the first traveler, and impacts go down from there. So given the choice of placing a traveler in a canyon that gets 10 visits a year or one that gets 100 visits a year, a person seeking the least impact would put that traveler in the 100-visit canyon.
Are there not available/published enough canyons to keep most people busy for many, many years? Why publish more? Why spread the traffic out further?
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “titanstairs” wrote:
It can be otherwise because individuals are responsible for themselves. In canyons and life. I hate seeing damage to canyons and rope marks as bad as anyone but I also feel it is a necessary evil to a certain extent. To not enjoy a canyon that was create here on earth just because of impact is not a very good case. And it is also very short term mindset. How long before mojo steps naturally disappear or hook holes diminish. The impact we cause is so relatively minuscule to the scope of time.
Use but don’t abuse is what I believe not only in canyons but in most things in life. That relates to cars, rec vehicles, gear, etc.
Thank you Tom and others taking the responsibility but the only blame I place in you is showing us how to enjoy nature and what it has to offer us. >
Tim Hoover
How could it be otherwise? Let me count the ways… Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Hmmm, sorry for the delay – still counting. Â Just curious, do you feel this responsibility extends in perpetuity or is there some time limit? Â Genuinely interested, Â Tim
________________________________ From: TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:58 AM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
Totally serious.
How could it be otherwise?
Of course, I believe in more than 100% responsibility. The people who visit the canyon are also 100% responsible for their actions. But I am too, for BRINGING these people to this particular canyon.
So, the trails on the sandpile next to Spry from Canyoneers – those are my fault, very much so. Not sure the current trail on there is from canyoneers. Also, it has been a long time since I sent people toward the sandpile, so my current culpability is small, if canyoneers.
However, while I did not FD Spry, I was the first to publish it. So all the grooves and wear and tear in the canyon are on my head. I feel somewhat bad about it, but not real bad. From those grooves, you can see how a guy would want to keep a canyon off the radar to keep this kind of wear and tear from occurring.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi wrote:
Are you being facitous Tom? > Or do you actually beleive this > : > “If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.”
> — On Tue, 10/2/12, TomJones wrote:
From: TomJones To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 7:43 AM
No. He did not imply it, he stated it. You make it sound tawdry…
If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.
How could it be otherwise?
Tom >
—
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
titanstairs
It can be otherwise because individuals are responsible for themselves. In canyons and life. I hate seeing damage to canyons and rope marks as bad as anyone but I also feel it is a necessary evil to a certain extent. To not enjoy a canyon that was create here on earth just because of impact is not a very good case. And it is also very short term mindset. How long before mojo steps naturally disappear or hook holes diminish. The impact we cause is so relatively minuscule to the scope of time.
Use but don’t abuse is what I believe not only in canyons but in most things in life. That relates to cars, rec vehicles, gear, etc.
Thank you Tom and others taking the responsibility but the only blame I place in you is showing us how to enjoy nature and what it has to offer us.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
No. He did not imply it, he stated it. You make it sound tawdry…
If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.
How could it be otherwise?
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “titanstairs” wrote:
So are you implying that if someone publicizes a canyon they are responsible for all that follow. Or are you implying that the canyons are only reserved for a select few who know its there. I guess I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “davewyo1” wrote:
> I would point out two things for the general conversation:
1. Ghosting techniques have not been worked out to the extent that the terminology may suggest. Perhaps further work will eliminate many of the problems, but at this time sand bag, sand trap, water trap, and like techniques are causing a certain amount of rope grooves.
2. If you are the one to popularize a canyon, in a short while you will be able to go back and see rope grooves which you can consider to be a direct result of your actions.
Dave >
Luke Galyan
Yup this forum is a great way to hear the voices (ok typings) of canyoneers and that can lead to meeting people. While this and other forumns are “a” way to meet people, I don’t think it is a particularly productive way to meet people who are new.
I feel most new people will not be comfortable asking to be taken on trips by people they have never met on a forum who’s members the have never met. At the same time I feel the majority (not all so don’t think I am making an all inclusive staement) of members on this board are hesitant to take new people out. Lots of canyon advice is given but there seems to be a hesitance to actually take new peole whith unknown skills or personality.
Meeting someone face to face in a group setting is much more conducive to making activity connections. Grottos or regularly scheduled meetings allow this to happen a lot easier.
I have met almost all of the canyon people I know by being introduced to them while on trips with someone I already know. Then I started to get invited to fests and such.
I have met a few new people as a result of online contact and taking them on a route with me. Some of them have become aquaintances while others have become good friends. But these people account for a very small percent of the people I do know.
Meetups, ACA events and other club like gatherings are what I feel the more productive way for new people to get involved. Forums like this are a way to hear the voices of others and sound your own voice. Forumns lijke this are also a great way to begin to feel more connected to those you have already met.
Just tossing my two cents in saying that while there may be many avenues for new people to meet fellow canyoneers, these forums are not one of the better ones.
Luke
Sent from my phone
titanstairs titanstairs@yahoo.com> wrote:
There are plenty of avenues to meet people. You are on one now if you didn’t notice
>— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Abby Snow wrote: >
> I think people who publish beta should also prominently publish the >> regulations for the land agency that manages that land. While it would >> not prevent people from intentionally doing things against those >> regulations (such as adding bolts in Death Valley canyons, which >> against DV’s regulations), it would help reduce the amount of people >> doing things like that out of ignorance or out of misdirected good >> intentions. >
> The controversy about protecting canyons through secrecy doesn’t seem >> to stem from the cut-and-dry regulations. I think it’s about concern >> gray areas of ethics that there isn’t consensus/knowledge on: about >> rope groves, bolting vs. natural anchors, and ghosting vs. leaving >> anchors. Canyoneers have different levels of awareness and skill on >> these issues. >
> I come from a caving background. The show-don’t-tell philosophy is very >> common in caving. A major difference I see is that there is a clear >> path for how to meet the people that can show you those caves: the >> local chapters (grottos) of the National Speleological Society. Yes, >> personality clashes or poor social skills still do affect whether a >> person gets invited into those caves. But it also built upon the person >> with the cave knowledge learning to trust the other person’s ethics >> (will they minimize impacts?) and skill (are they physically able to >> negotiate through cave without causing damage? Do they have the rope >> skills? Do they have skills to contribute to study or management of >> cave, such as through survey or inventory?). Since I am a quiet, >> introverted person, I miss that canyoneering doesn’t have the same >> structure to meet people and gain access. >
> -Abby >
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012, at 12:41 PM, titanstairs wrote: >
> I completely disagree. Henry ford is not responsible for a car accident >> because he produced a vehicle. People are responsible for their own >> actions. On the flip side that makes you responsible for all the >> friendships made and good times had in those published canyons >
> [nc3=4767085] >
> — >> Abby Snow >> abby_snow@… >
> >
>
Ice
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “titanstairs” wrote: I completely disagree. Henry ford is not responsible for a car accident because he produced a vehicle.
Thanks for using an example that completely disproves your point… LOL….
If Ford produces a car that causes a death or serious injury than Ford can be held accountable…. think Pinto’s exploding in a ball of fire from a rear end collision, Ford Explorers rolling over because of tire blow outs, Ford Escapes and engine fires, to name several times Ford has been held responsible in U.S. courts.
titanstairs
There are plenty of avenues to meet people. You are on one now if you didn’t notice
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Abby Snow wrote:
I think people who publish beta should also prominently publish the > regulations for the land agency that manages that land. While it would > not prevent people from intentionally doing things against those > regulations (such as adding bolts in Death Valley canyons, which > against DV’s regulations), it would help reduce the amount of people > doing things like that out of ignorance or out of misdirected good > intentions.
The controversy about protecting canyons through secrecy doesn’t seem > to stem from the cut-and-dry regulations. I think it’s about concern > gray areas of ethics that there isn’t consensus/knowledge on: about > rope groves, bolting vs. natural anchors, and ghosting vs. leaving > anchors. Canyoneers have different levels of awareness and skill on > these issues.
I come from a caving background. The show-don’t-tell philosophy is very > common in caving. A major difference I see is that there is a clear > path for how to meet the people that can show you those caves: the > local chapters (grottos) of the National Speleological Society. Yes, > personality clashes or poor social skills still do affect whether a > person gets invited into those caves. But it also built upon the person > with the cave knowledge learning to trust the other person’s ethics > (will they minimize impacts?) and skill (are they physically able to > negotiate through cave without causing damage? Do they have the rope > skills? Do they have skills to contribute to study or management of > cave, such as through survey or inventory?). Since I am a quiet, > introverted person, I miss that canyoneering doesn’t have the same > structure to meet people and gain access.
-Abby
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012, at 12:41 PM, titanstairs wrote:
> I completely disagree. Henry ford is not responsible for a car accident > because he produced a vehicle. People are responsible for their own > actions. On the flip side that makes you responsible for all the > friendships made and good times had in those published canyons
[nc3=4767085]
— > Abby Snow > abby_snow@…
>
TomJones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi wrote:
I’m sure ZionN(azi)Park would love to shut down access to canyoneers.
Do you have evidence for this statement?
What makes you so sure?
Tom
Randi
And you can lock people outta the caves too – not so the canyons …. unless they’re on agency lock-down like Deer Creek. Sadly, maybe DC is just the beginning of things to come –  First come the limits – then closure… I’m sure ZionN(azi)Park would love to shut down access to canyoneers.  — On Tue, 10/2/12, Abby Snow abby_snow@fastmail.fm> wrote:
From: Abby Snow abby_snow@fastmail.fm> Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons To: Yahoo Canyons Group Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 1:06 PM
ÂÂ
I think people who publish beta should also prominently publish the regulations for the land agency that manages that land. While it would not prevent people from intentionally doing things against those regulations (such as adding bolts in Death Valley canyons, which against DV’s regulations), it would help reduce the amount of people doing things like that out of ignorance or out of misdirected good intentions.
The controversy about protecting canyons through secrecy doesn’t seem to stem from the cut-and-dry regulations. I think it’s about concern gray areas of ethics that there isn’t consensus/knowledge on: about rope groves, bolting vs. natural anchors, and ghosting vs. leaving anchors. Canyoneers have different levels of awareness and skill on these issues.
I come from a caving background. The show-don’t-tell philosophy is very common in caving. A major difference I see is that there is a clear path for how to meet the people that can show you those caves: the local chapters (grottos) of the National Speleological Society. Yes, personality clashes or poor social skills still do affect whether a person gets invited into those caves. But it also built upon the person with the cave knowledge learning to trust the other person’s ethics (will they minimize impacts?) and skill (are they physically able to negotiate through cave without causing damage? Do they have the rope skills? Do they have skills to contribute to study or management of cave, such as through survey or inventory?). Since I am a quiet, introverted person, I miss that canyoneering doesn’t have the same structure to meet people and gain access.
-Abby
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012, at 12:41 PM, titanstairs wrote:
I completely disagree. Henry ford is not responsible for a car accident because he produced a vehicle. People are responsible for their own actions. On the flip side that makes you responsible for all the friendships made and good times had in those published canyons
[nc3=4767085]
— Abby Snow abby_snow@fastmail.fm
Abby Snow
I think people who publish beta should also prominently publish the regulations for the land agency that manages that land. While it would not prevent people from intentionally doing things against those regulations (such as adding bolts in Death Valley canyons, which against DV’s regulations), it would help reduce the amount of people doing things like that out of ignorance or out of misdirected good intentions.
The controversy about protecting canyons through secrecy doesn’t seem to stem from the cut-and-dry regulations. I think it’s about concern gray areas of ethics that there isn’t consensus/knowledge on: about rope groves, bolting vs. natural anchors, and ghosting vs. leaving anchors. Canyoneers have different levels of awareness and skill on these issues.
I come from a caving background. The show-don’t-tell philosophy is very common in caving. A major difference I see is that there is a clear path for how to meet the people that can show you those caves: the local chapters (grottos) of the National Speleological Society. Yes, personality clashes or poor social skills still do affect whether a person gets invited into those caves. But it also built upon the person with the cave knowledge learning to trust the other person’s ethics (will they minimize impacts?) and skill (are they physically able to negotiate through cave without causing damage? Do they have the rope skills? Do they have skills to contribute to study or management of cave, such as through survey or inventory?). Since I am a quiet, introverted person, I miss that canyoneering doesn’t have the same structure to meet people and gain access.
-Abby
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012, at 12:41 PM, titanstairs wrote:
I completely disagree. Henry ford is not responsible for a car accident because he produced a vehicle. People are responsible for their own actions. On the flip side that makes you responsible for all the friendships made and good times had in those published canyons
[nc3=4767085]
— Abby Snow abby_snow@fastmail.fm
rickinlo
I think rope grooves are pretty specific to sandstone right? I mean, I guess it could eventually happen in other rock types, but it seems like it would take a weird pull and a lot of people.
An I agree that in the scheme of things, rope grooves are a little unsightly, but environmentally benign. It’s hard to go down a canyon without leaving any evidence that you were there.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Adam C” wrote:
> That is a quandary. Do you feel there are many canyons that do or would take the wear & tear of heavy use without showing undesired effects, such as rope grooves? Personally, I find approach route/trail impacts are more contentious, as the negative impacts are more easily seen by non-canyoneers. > — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Totally serious.
How could it be otherwise?
Of course, I believe in more than 100% responsibility. The people who visit the canyon are also 100% responsible for their actions. But I am too, for BRINGING these people to this particular canyon.
So, the trails on the sandpile next to Spry from Canyoneers – those are my fault, very much so. Not sure the current trail on there is from canyoneers. Also, it has been a long time since I sent people toward the sandpile, so my current culpability is small, if canyoneers.
However, while I did not FD Spry, I was the first to publish it. So all the grooves and wear and tear in the canyon are on my head. I feel somewhat bad about it, but not real bad. From those grooves, you can see how a guy would want to keep a canyon off the radar to keep this kind of wear and tear from occurring.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi wrote:
Are you being facitous Tom?
> Or do you actually beleive this
> :
> “If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.”
> — On Tue, 10/2/12, TomJones wrote:
From: TomJones To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 7:43 AM
No. He did not imply it, he stated it. You make it sound tawdry…
If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.
How could it be otherwise?
Tom
titanstairs
I completely disagree. Henry ford is not responsible for a car accident because he produced a vehicle. People are responsible for their own actions. On the flip side that makes you responsible for all the friendships made and good times had in those published canyons
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Totally serious.
How could it be otherwise?
> Of course, I believe in more than 100% responsibility. The people who visit the canyon are also 100% responsible for their actions. But I am too, for BRINGING these people to this particular canyon.
So, the trails on the sandpile next to Spry from Canyoneers – those are my fault, very much so. Not sure the current trail on there is from canyoneers. Also, it has been a long time since I sent people toward the sandpile, so my current culpability is small, if canyoneers.
However, while I did not FD Spry, I was the first to publish it. So all the grooves and wear and tear in the canyon are on my head. I feel somewhat bad about it, but not real bad. From those grooves, you can see how a guy would want to keep a canyon off the radar to keep this kind of wear and tear from occurring.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi wrote:
Are you being facitous Tom?
Or do you actually beleive this
:
“If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.”
— On Tue, 10/2/12, TomJones wrote:
From: TomJones Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 7:43 AM
No. He did not imply it, he stated it. You make it sound tawdry…
If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.
How could it be otherwise?
Tom
>
Adam C
That is a quandary. Do you feel there are many canyons that do or would take the wear & tear of heavy use without showing undesired effects, such as rope grooves? Personally, I find approach route/trail impacts are more contentious, as the negative impacts are more easily seen by non-canyoneers. — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
Totally serious.
How could it be otherwise?
> Of course, I believe in more than 100% responsibility. The people who visit the canyon are also 100% responsible for their actions. But I am too, for BRINGING these people to this particular canyon.
So, the trails on the sandpile next to Spry from Canyoneers – those are my fault, very much so. Not sure the current trail on there is from canyoneers. Also, it has been a long time since I sent people toward the sandpile, so my current culpability is small, if canyoneers.
However, while I did not FD Spry, I was the first to publish it. So all the grooves and wear and tear in the canyon are on my head. I feel somewhat bad about it, but not real bad. From those grooves, you can see how a guy would want to keep a canyon off the radar to keep this kind of wear and tear from occurring.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi wrote:
Are you being facitous Tom?
Or do you actually beleive this
:
“If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.”
— On Tue, 10/2/12, TomJones wrote:
From: TomJones Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 7:43 AM
No. He did not imply it, he stated it. You make it sound tawdry…
If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.
How could it be otherwise?
Tom
>
iceaxe_us
>>If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.
I agree with this…. But it does not release the end user of their responsibilities.
Shane Burrows Climb-Utah.com http://Climb-Utah.com
TomJones
Totally serious.
How could it be otherwise?
Of course, I believe in more than 100% responsibility. The people who visit the canyon are also 100% responsible for their actions. But I am too, for BRINGING these people to this particular canyon.
So, the trails on the sandpile next to Spry from Canyoneers – those are my fault, very much so. Not sure the current trail on there is from canyoneers. Also, it has been a long time since I sent people toward the sandpile, so my current culpability is small, if canyoneers.
However, while I did not FD Spry, I was the first to publish it. So all the grooves and wear and tear in the canyon are on my head. I feel somewhat bad about it, but not real bad. From those grooves, you can see how a guy would want to keep a canyon off the radar to keep this kind of wear and tear from occurring.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi wrote:
Are you being facitous Tom? > Or do you actually beleive this > : > “If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.”
> — On Tue, 10/2/12, TomJones wrote:
From: TomJones To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 7:43 AM
No. He did not imply it, he stated it. You make it sound tawdry…
If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.
How could it be otherwise?
Tom >
Randi
Are you being facitous Tom? Or do you actually beleive this : “If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.”
— On Tue, 10/2/12, TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:
From: TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons To: Yahoo Canyons Group Date: Tuesday, October 2, 2012, 7:43 AM
ÂÂ
No. He did not imply it, he stated it. You make it sound tawdry…
If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.
How could it be otherwise?
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “titanstairs” wrote:
So are you implying that if someone publicizes a canyon they are responsible for all that follow. Or are you implying that the canyons are only reserved for a select few who know its there. I guess I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “davewyo1” wrote:
I would point out two things for the general conversation:
1. Ghosting techniques have not been worked out to the extent that the terminology may suggest. Perhaps further work will eliminate many of the problems, but at this time sand bag, sand trap, water trap, and like techniques are causing a certain amount of rope grooves.
2. If you are the one to popularize a canyon, in a short while you will be able to go back and see rope grooves which you can consider to be a direct result of your actions.
Dave
TomJones
No. He did not imply it, he stated it. You make it sound tawdry…
If you make the choice to publish a canyon, then you have responsibility for the people you DRAW to that canyon, and for their actions.
How could it be otherwise?
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “titanstairs” wrote:
So are you implying that if someone publicizes a canyon they are responsible for all that follow. Or are you implying that the canyons are only reserved for a select few who know its there. I guess I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “davewyo1” wrote:
I would point out two things for the general conversation:
1. Ghosting techniques have not been worked out to the extent that the terminology may suggest. Perhaps further work will eliminate many of the problems, but at this time sand bag, sand trap, water trap, and like techniques are causing a certain amount of rope grooves.
2. If you are the one to popularize a canyon, in a short while you will be able to go back and see rope grooves which you can consider to be a direct result of your actions.
Dave
Tim Hoover
Â
________________________________ From: davewyo1 davewyo1@yahoo.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Monday, October 1, 2012 5:12 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
Even you Tim?!
**** Hey, that’s no better than ‘Regretting sharing beta?’ (Both of which I think are perfectly acceptable sentences) [Got milk?]
What is this penchant for “Ram-speak” on this group?
**** PLEASE don’t paint me with that brush. (Just joshin’ Ram – you know I love you. Um, you know, in a Platonic sort of way.)
I’m certain that you know that “Regretting sharing beta?” is not a sentence, but I know you are a fairly cosmopolitan guy so I’m going to put it down to “When in Rome…Do as the Romans do…” and figure you’re just talking the local talk so you can be understood. 😉
All kidding aside(gosh I crack myself up)…yeah, there is a small bit of regret. Take a trip through Woody and you’ll see what I mean.
At this time I’m still behind my decision to put out the mini-guide. Without doubt, dozens of people have expressed their delight with some of those canyons (some of the canyons don’t get done much as far as I can tell)and trip reports show that a couple in North Wash have attained almost “trade route” status. Overall, the canyons have been treated well. Of course, all of them have seen traffic which wasn’t there before, so there is evidence of use. The rope grooves in Woody make me sick.
**** Do they make you feel worse than the ones in Spry? In East Lep? In countless other canyons?
My comment that “you will see the results of your popularizing a canyon” stem from my desire to make the point to anyone who is considering “outing” a canyon. I didn’t think of it sufficiently before I published, and I just wanted others to know that the possibility/probability of seeing damage to a canyon which had previously been what might be called untouched is high. How one processes that is up to the individual.
**** If you hadn’t outed those canyons, someone else would have eventually. Maybe someone with a bolt kit or G-pick.
“Knowing what I know now…” is a difficult question. stefan has given me the option to add to the guide at any time, so that wouldn’t be a constraint. Truth be told, I’m not canyoneering all that much any more and I’m more than satisfied going to do well-established canyons.
**** So, what are you up to these days? I’d sure hate to think I’d seen the last of you.
That said, I’ll answer the question. I don’t know for certain, but I probably will not be publishing any more canyons. If I happen to come across something interesting and actually get up the nerve and energy to do it, I don’t think I will publish it. In such a case, if I felt like I wanted to spread the info on the canyon, I think I would just pass it on by word of mouth.
**** Oral transmission does not guarantee safety. Remember, you’re not just telling one group, you’re telling them and whoever they decide to tell, and whoever they decide to tell, and whoever they decide to tell, ad infinitum. (Bet you never saw Ram use fancy terms like that!)
Dave
**** So, you see rope grooves in a canyon you initially reported on and feel bad. Would you feel any better if they had been there when you first descended them? Half the time when I go into what I think is a remote area in the Sierras I see inexcusable garbage, redundant fire rings, 4WD trails, chopped trees, and countless other signs of assholes. It makes me sick but I don’t feel responsible. Would I feel differently if it happened in an area I had popularized? Probably, but objectively I’m still not convinced that the blame doesn’t reside exclusively with those who do the damage. Anyway, it seems like a very muddy area and that is why I can’t really argue with anyone, no matter what their policy is regarding canyon reporting.
**** Tim
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Tim Hoover wrote:
Dave > Regretting sharing beta? I know a lot of people are grateful to you for your explorations and subsequent sharing. Knowing what you know now, will you continue to share the results of your discoveries? >  > I have mixed feelings about your second point. If you teach your kid to drive and they are subsequently killed by a drunk driver in a car accident, is it a direct result of your action? More to the point in canyoneering, no canyons are going to be secret forever. They will all be discovered and descended eventually. To the extent that anyone believes in canyoneering ethics any more, perhaps being the initial person to broadcast new canyons will allow one to have some say in the style of descent for future canyoneers. (Unfortunately, even I have a hard time believing this argument. I doubt the pinheads who do the most damage know about, care about, or abide by any sort of canyoneering ethics. Still, it’s a chance) >  > For the record, I have no strong feelings about sharing, not sharing, showing, reporting without telling, etc. I hate to see resource destruction, but if no one ever shared, I would never have entered the sport in the first place and would be poorer for it. >  > Tim >Â
________________________________ >Â From: davewyo1 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons >Â
I would point out two things for the general conversation:
1. Ghosting techniques have not been worked out to the extent that the terminology may suggest. Perhaps further work will eliminate many of the problems, but at this time sand bag, sand trap, water trap, and like techniques are causing a certain amount of rope grooves.
2. If you are the one to popularize a canyon, in a short while you will be able to go back and see rope grooves which you can consider to be a direct result of your actions.
Dave
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ratagonia” wrote:
The conversation isn’t over (not dead yet…)
Luke’s contributions are long and complex, and take considerable time and effort to digest. I have been very busy, thus have not been able to concentrate the focus they deserve.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Adam C” wrote:
> Perhaps I was inconsiderate to start a discussion knowing I wouldn’t frequently participate in; I apologize.Â
>Â My opinions bounce around in the muddled middle ground Luke talks about, while openly I’m secret or extremely vague about the places I treasure; whether they’re published elsewhere or not.
> —
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
> This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My > Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save > Changes".
DAILY DIGEST OPTION will deliver one email > to you each day summarizing that day’s messages.
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you > must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
>
—
When you post, please change the Subject appropriately, to make reading and searching easier. You can use the following abbreviations: TRIP = Trip Report; BETA = Canyon Beta; PARTNER = Partner and/or Rides; ETHICS = Ethics; TECH = Technical Questions and Tips; BIZ = E Group Business; SALE = Stuff for Sale. Please use a Tilde ~ after the abbreviation, so we know you are coding for us, such as:
Subject: BIZ~ New Abbreviation List – working?
To change your delivery options, go to the Canyons Egroup page on yahoo: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/
This will require logging into Yahoo. Click on the "Edit My Membership" link, and change your delivery option. Press "Save Changes".
WEB ONLY OPTION will not deliver email; you must visit the web site to view messages. Groups Links
davewyo1
I’m saying that I myself am seeing grooves in canyons I published. I feel that these rope grooves are a direct result of my actions. I feel bad when I go there. Nothing more is implied. I just thought that others could benefit from my experience.
Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “titanstairs” wrote:
So are you implying that if someone publicizes a canyon they are responsible for all that follow. Or are you implying that the canyons are only reserved for a select few who know its there. I guess I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “davewyo1” wrote:
I would point out two things for the general conversation:
1. Ghosting techniques have not been worked out to the extent that the terminology may suggest. Perhaps further work will eliminate many of the problems, but at this time sand bag, sand trap, water trap, and like techniques are causing a certain amount of rope grooves.
2. If you are the one to popularize a canyon, in a short while you will be able to go back and see rope grooves which you can consider to be a direct result of your actions.
Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ratagonia” wrote:
The conversation isn’t over (not dead yet…)
Luke’s contributions are long and complex, and take considerable time and effort to digest. I have been very busy, thus have not been able to concentrate the focus they deserve.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Adam C” wrote:
Perhaps I was inconsiderate to start a discussion knowing I wouldn’t frequently participate in; I apologize.
My opinions bounce around in the muddled middle ground Luke talks about, while openly I’m secret or extremely vague about the places I treasure; whether they’re published elsewhere or not.