Wonderful. Thank you for the cultural ethic journey into a community on the other side of the blue ball. And Luca…is it small because we have secrets or do keeping secrets make it small?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Tim Vollmer
G’day folks,
This is a topic which comes up semi-regularly in Australia as well, with the same amount of passion too!
To make my response a bit clearer, I’ll give some background on our local canyoning scene before giving my own thoughts / experience. Over here, canyoning first started in the late 1940’s when members of bushwalking clubs (hiking / trekking in overseas language) very slowly started exploring some of the gorges that required ropes to access. They used manilla rope, and abseiled without harnesses or descenders (doing 100′ free-hanging drops using a classic abseil is the definition of balls if you ask me!). This abseiling craze caught on a little — as in members of a handful of clubs were doing it — but there were only a very small number of canyons explored. At the start of the ’60’s a group discovered a canyon that to this day is one of the best in the Blue Mountains. This set off more of a craze, and a massive amount of exploration occurred in the next decade or so. During this time there were no “secret” canyons, rather, several of the clubs formed a “canyoning committee”, splitting up likely canyon locations from arial photos between them and each exploring their patches. By the later 70’s things had changed. From this time on, the etiquette of keeping new canyons secret began. Jumping forward to current times, there are probably something like 200 canyons in the Blue Mountains (with a small number of canyons elsewhere within a few hours of Sydney). Of these, differing levels of beta exist. For about 40 – 50 of them there is extensive information, including location, rap lengths, exit info, water conditions etc. These canyons provide more than enough action for most recreational canyoneers. There are about 40-50 more that have some beta. I.e. you can buy a book and at least get a grid reference of where the canyon is, and sometimes a maximum rope length needed. A small number of these ones move over to the list of more heavily beta’d canyons each year. For the rest, you have very little info. There is no beta online. There was, until this year, no beta in books (some limited stuff has been included in a new book). Interestingly, there are canyons with extensive beta, that are incredibly good, that get almost no visitation. That is because many of our canyons require long walks, difficult scrub (ask Deeps to tell you about Aussie scrub!!!), challenging navigation and long days. This is enough to turn away 99% of recreational canyoneers. Over here, the argument for not publishing details of new canyons is only partly about the environmental impact of increased use (most new canyons are very inaccessible), rather, it is about providing future groups the chance to have the same experience of discovery. (Early this year I did a week-long exploratory canyoning trip, where we descended 11 canyons, and would have done 100+ raps. On that entire trip we only found two nylon slings. There is a great feeling having to problem-solve yourself, rather than following others). We currently have an arbitrary line cutting through the Blue Mountains, with most canyoneers accepting that no beta be published for canyons north of it.
Now my for my personal thoughts. I’ve been torn on this issue, being at the younger end of the canyoning community here. I love to promote canyoning, and personally think the best way to protect our wild places is to ensure people know about them and value them. I do this by publishing most of my trips online (photos and trip reports, but not beta). I have got into trouble in the past because I have published names, but not beta, for slots that are viewed as “wilderness canyons”. In that case, I spoke to the person who had done the first descents and took their guidance. Given that person has spent probably 1000 days just on exploratory trips over the years, I think he has earned the right to have a say in what happens to those canyons. In those cases, I removed oven the names from my posts, but retained general information about what area they were in / what the major creek was in the area.
Personally, I have come around completely to what has been the status quo for Blue Mountains canyons for the last few decades. My practice now is: > 1) I do not publish / provide beta on specific canyons in wilderness areas (but I’ll happily give people a steer towards general areas worth exploring). > 2) Even for popular areas, I personally don’t publish beta. A general idea of what creek a canyon is in, and the maximum rope length needed, are all that are required, and experienced canyoneers can sort out the rest. I do usually name them, because I want to encourage people to explore, but there are times when I chose not to for a variety of reasons. > 3) I try and leave canyons as untouched as possible. I never bolt. I use natural anchors and avoid placing slings (unless in a well-worn canyons where it is a safety / environmentally beneficial thing to do). > 4) I deliberately go into most canyons with the bare minimum of beta. I do this for several reasons: it is more exciting and surprising, its more fun to solve problems, and it develops the skills that are needed for genuinely exploratory stuff. (I’m yet to find my own first descent, but I want to be ready for it when I do!) > 5) If you come with me on a trip that involves unpublished canyons, I will ask you not to publish info on the canyon (and sometimes not to even publish a name for it). I’ve never had someone break that trust.
Finally, I just have to respond to Luca. While I appreciate that conditions in Europe are VERY different, I have to disagree with your genitalia theory. I can assure you that the people who explored most of the “secret” canyons over here need a wheelbarrow to move their huge balls around in! Some of the trips they have done require physical and mental strength beyond what you or I could muster. They have gone places that would kill a lesser man, with the bare minimum of equipment, and discovered incredible things. Canyons over here aren’t like Europe — you can’t park your car at the bottom — they often require days of walking through incredibly rugged terrain to access. As for your comment, “if you do not own the land IT’S NOT YOUR CANYON”, I couldn’t agree more. If you don’t own the land, you have no right to publish it. Our canyons are in National Parks, owned not only by us, but by future generations. They have the same right to enjoy the thrill of discovering and exploring canyons as our generation. I’d suggest that the real people in need of your “complimentary penis enlargement kit” are those who need to prove their manhood by bragging about their discoveries!
Just my two cents worth…
> Tim Vollmer > Mob: 0404 273 313 > Email: tim.vollmer@… > Web: www.fatcanyoners.org/
>
Luke
You hit on a key points of focus between our views Ram. How versus When.
When:
“When” it all becomes known is not really what I have an issue with at all. I share everything I do because I enjoy doing so, not because I feel it all has to be known. I like the equal level playing field it puts us all on and I hate trying to keep track of what I can say and who I can say it to (feels wrong). If you want it secret then don’t tell anyone and it doesn’t get out. If you want it shared then by all means share it and let the world know. Either way, each person makes a choice to share or not share, which directly effects the “When”. Personally I don’t have an issue with when. It can be now, later or never that it all becomes known and I am happy in any event. The “When” is obviously more important to you.
How:
“How” it gets shared is what I have an issue with. If you want to slow down when canyons get known then just keep your secret playgrounds secret and you will have the greatest effect on the When. Using the show don’t tell method creates a subset of people who have been able to see the place and a subset of people who are not able to see it but want to. The reasons for not getting to see it may be lack of geographic connection, or social connection. When pics and stories are tossed out for these places, one of those subsets of people can be left feeling “left out of the club” (rather you call it a club or not). The “How” is more important to me.
Using methods like “show don’t tell” do slow things down. But how much do they get slowed down? A year, 3 years, 5 years,..? In the grand scheme of things even 5 years is a pretty small amount of time. Let’s give it the benefit of the doubt and say the show don’t tell experience can slow things being known by 15 years. Thinking of it this way the show don’t tell stuff will trickle into public awareness within our lifetime. So you have slowed it down by say one generation. Not really a big deal in the grand scheme, unless you enjoy the drama or plan to leverage the knowledge in some way.
My focus is on the How. I have no problem with secrecy and tried to be clear about that. But sharing in a way that gives opportunity to some and no opportunity to others is what I have an issue with. No need to beat it to death anymore but I don’t like that some people end up feeling left out or left behind as a result. Your focus is on the When. You want it slowed down and that is your choice. I find it unfortunate that a better way to accomplish this has not been found. People feeling left out or teased or taunted or whatever label you want to put on it, is not how I like to see people interact.
So in a nut shell we are focused on two different things. How and When. When is inevitable, how is a choice.
With all that said I am still curious about the question I asked earlier in this post.
You wrote
* I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever * i expect every canyon to be found. *I post pictures that help that along * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and I feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that *many are offended by pictures without names and beta * i post pictures of everywhere i go *most places i go have no beta * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with what you will. I may compare names and history….
Am I interpreting your intentions properly?
Are you saying you post your pictures to help the canyon discovery process along and you want people to figure out where they are?
Are you saying that if someone were to do that then the canyon is theirs to do what they want with no hard feelings, since that is what you encouraged anyway?
Sure someone can do what they want with publicly posted info.
But my question to you is, do you really encourage that so the canyons get found or would you in all honesty be upset if that info were handled in a way you don’t agree with?
It’s an honest question I feel deserves clarification.
Luke
P.S.
Yup I was out playing in that one area where I have been sworn to conditions. Conditions are not what I want out of canyoning. I like to go canyoneering with people I love to be with and I like exploring when possible. Awesome place out there! Love ya too man, even if I am being blunt with all this. And I too find it a shame that our views prevent some fun times. We will have to have good times in places where our views do not clash.
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of RAM Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 4:29 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” wrote:
Why the rush? Wrong question I think. I don’t think it is a question of > rushing. It is the form of sharing that is the question. Sharing can take > on many forms (word of mouth, emails, Summit posts, Bogely posts, Yahoo > posts, personal blogs, web albums, Facebook and likely more). But rush or > not to rush is a different topic than the topic we have been discussing. We > are not talking about rushing or not. We are talking about sharing, keeping > secrets or something in the middle. Yes you can view the middle ground as a > slower way of letting things out, but it comes with negative impacts on > portions of the community.
I think “Why the Rush?” is a quite a valid question and a sound approach to the share or not to share or how to share discussion. If we were to agree that man’s drive to know all there is to know, will win the day, the question becomes WHEN will all this information be available? I can and do exert some influence here, as do countless others, including, not just a little, yourself. I support and advocate it all being known further down the road.
The HOW it is shared is the details and mechanism and is less important to ME than the WHEN. The goal vs. the method used to the goal. I said I have haphazard and conflicting goals. One is to slow the dissemination of all the beta, for all the remaining unknown canyons AND the goal to help spur exploration before that opportunity is lost to all forever, in all the remaining unknown canyons. And to have it done with the new, lower impact anchoring methods and have those methods spread. One pulls, one pushes. This puts me in YOUR middle ground I think. I don’t mean to taunt you or others.
I respect your decision to publish everything you do, even as I disagree with it. I hope my motivations aren’t so muddled as to not receive the same. The shame is that our differences often prevent us from getting out together, seeing as we both do a lot of exploring and both have a great sense of fun (if I am allowed to say that about myself). I know you are out right now “doing it.” Hope to see you at FreezeFest. on some neutral ground. Maybe for a Psycho or the like. Love ya man. Ram
> The issue I have with the middle ground is the feeling / view it can > generate in some people. Show don’t tell can take on an “in the club” feel. > Showing pics and stories but not revealing the location can take on a na na > na na na / taunting feel. That is what I have issue with. Those who get > invited along get to feel special and those doing the inviting get to set > the rules. Doesn’t feel too warm and fuzzy to me.
If you want it secret then by all means keep it secret. I have no issue > with it being secret even if all you want is your own personal playground. > There is nothing wrong with that as long as you do actually keep your mouth > and internet plug in quiet.
Side note: > And for the record I am not crying out because I am not allowed to go to > these places. I have been invited and have had hints at future invites to > some of these places. I personally have made a point of declining those > offers, since it violates how I feel about the method of sharing. I do not > want to be the person that propagates information in a way I personally do > not agree with. Un-like you Ram I have only one secret area to worry about. > I have no issues keeping to my word by following the conditions that come > with it. I have found that secret to impact a few of my social interactions > in a negative way and prefer not to add more of this complication to my > social life. Yes I consider my canyoneering friends part of my social life. > Truth be told they are pretty much my entire social life outside of work.
If you plan to share pics or stories, you have zero obligation to add a > plethora of beta or give a location, but if you are unwilling to give a > location when asked you will create an “in the club feel” for some of the > people asking you. Sharing all info in your first pic session or story is > not what I am talking about here. Anyone can put up pictures or stories and > not give a location, but if they refuse to tell you the location it can very > easily be interpreted as taunting or elitist or whatever. An important note > here is that rather that view is correct or not does not make the problem go > away.
Middle ground occurs when enticing information is given, like pics or > stories, then the location withheld. This can be done for many reasons, but > no matter what your reasons may be, it can generate negative reactions.
Why the rush? Why share all those wonderful pictures and stories as fast as > you can? If slow is what you want, how about keeping all your secret stuff. > well uh. secret and keeping quiet – – then occasionally share some pics or > a story and be happy to give locations for them when / if asked. With this > approach it is still let out at the pace you determine (pack dragging speed) > with no taunting in the mix at all. So, slow is not really the issue here. > Sharing just enough to get people interested then withholding info that will > allow them to go see it too, is what gets people riled up.
You don’t need “show don’t tell” to show a cool place to people you have > never met. Lots of noobs and experienced canyoneers alike love being taken > through a place by someone who has been there. And if that place is already > in a book or on a web site doesn’t taint the experience. You still met > someone new and got to watch the wow in their eyes. Show don’t tell only > adds the welcome to the club feel on top of it all. I have been very > appreciative of those who have taken me through places they already know, > even when I know it is in some orange book somewhere.
If someone wants to “protect” a canyon or a ruin or travertine or > maidenhair, then by all means keep everyone out and that includes even > themselves. Funny how I hear some people talk about protecting the fragile > things in a place by keeping it secret while they personally make repeated > visits and showing friends around who will likely bring in other friends > later. Not really secret is it? Not fully protected either?
If a canyon is next to stuff you still want to explore there is a real easy > way not to draw attention to it. Try not talking about it or sharing > pictures of it until you have explored the canyons near it that interest > you. See secret is not really a problem. It’s all about that middle ground > stuff again.
If 100’s of people have seen it, no it’s not really a secret. But if 100’s > of people have seen it but it is not shared with everyone, it is more a > middle ground. If 100’s of people have seen it but you have to have the > right social connections to be shown, is it really a club?
Ok all the banter aside. I think it is pretty clear that there are > different opinions on all this. And that was my original point. All share > or all secret is not such a big pot to stir up, you just pick a side that > reflects your views and go. But that middle ground stuff is a huge pot to > stir and there are lots of waves in there. I think in the end we all just > have to agree to disagree and try to enjoy the company of our fellow > canyoneers and dare I say friends.
Ram, there is another thread that can be perceived to be running through > your comments that stands out in contrast to keeping things secret.
First a quote from your last post…
* I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever > * i expect every canyon to be found. > *I post pictures that help that along > * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want > *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and i > feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that > *many are offended by pictures without names and beta > * i post pictures of everywhere i go > *most places i go have no beta > * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with > what you will. I may compare names and history….
Am I interpreting your intentions properly? Are you saying you post your > pictures to help the canyon discovery process along and you want people to > figure out where they are? Are you saying that if someone were to do that > then the canyon is theirs to do what they want with no hard feelings, since > that is what you encouraged anyway? Sure someone can do what they want with > publicly posted info. But my question to you is, do you really encourage > that so the canyons get found or would you in all honesty be upset if that > info were handled in a way you don’t agree with?
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group ] On Behalf Of > adkramoo > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 9:57 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group Gotta go tomorrow. Finally caught up just now. maybe everyone could do > without my opinion on this subject, but here goes anyway
Why keep secrets?
Mike Kelsey once said to me, with great energy, after I asked him what his > rush was to beta EVERY canyon on the plateau. he said….” I CAN’T WAIT. I > GOT TO GO NOW. MY FATHER TOSSED A BAIL OF HAY AT 73 AND DROPPED OVER. I > DON’T HAVE MUCH TIME!” He wants to bring them all to you. Its his gift to > you, freshly named or renamed, no matter. His prerogative.
Maybe my take is different because I have children who love this stuff. > Whats the rush? Is it still the golden age of canyoneering? Probably the > Silver age. Why not have it last? So sometimes when I keep a secret, it is > like dragging a pack over a drop. Slowing me enough so my partners can > capture me. What is the rush? Run out of good things to do? Done all the > classics? Shared them with all your friends?
This implies a grand philosophy and that would be a lie. Like most things > that happen for me, it is haphazard and I try to make it fit an ethic that > feels right. Welcome to my checkerboard. I will do some fessing up now. What > i say may or may not be true, but I believe it is.
* I know a lot of secret canyons > * Most of them were shared, with great enthusiasm, with me by a host of > other people > * they did so for a variety of reason but quite often because I shared with > them > * pioneers in different areas have an affinity for each other and share > openly. They know the nervousness of “the night before” perhaps. > * i treat their secrets with greater care than i treat my own. > * I use the show don’t tell for many reasons > * I like to share and and it sets a structure for me to bring person after > person to these places, increasing the frequency of my enjoyment > *many of the people taken were people I had not met the day before. i can’t > remember the name of the 2 lads in Fiddlestix. You out there? > *many great friends were made among these new folks who i did not know the > night before, right Denali Mike? > * i keep some canyons close because of concerns of access in the long term > *Sometimes it to protect a ruin > *sometimes its to protect travatine or maidenhair > * OFTEN it is because the canyon is next to other canyons that are on the > project list. The dante’s and warm springs were like that. We took over a > year to do the 2 systems at a relaxed pace, bringing many different pals in > on the exploration process. A canyon every month or so. > *the dantes became a show don’t tell because of the lag to finish the other > canyons. Proved to be a fun experiment. How long before they get out? > Hundreds of people that time > * is something a secret if 100’s of people are in on it? > * I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever > * i expect every canyon to be found. > *I post pictures that help that along > * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want > *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and i > feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that > *many are offended by pictures without names and beta > * i post pictures of everywhere i go > *most places i go have no beta > * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with > what you will. I may compare names and history…. > * i look for canyons to give out > * How a prospective gift canyon might get anchored matters to me > * While i often get criticized for keeping secrets, I almost never get > thanked for giving one out (see fiddlestix). If it were me.. 😉 > * the decision on status of new canyons is decided by the whole group that > did it > * in that process advocacy is encouraged, but it is a democracy and i am > often out voted. > *I keep canyons secret i advocated to have made public > *occasionally, but not often, i keep a canyon close so that I can caress it > on my way to doing it a slew of times-Selfish me in these cases. > * I continue to explore knowing that their are unknown canyons out there I > should not be in and i am likely to stumble into one > *Why? I CAN’T WAIT. I GOT TO GO NOW. MY FATHER WAS PLAYING RACQUET BALL AT > 62 AND DROPPED OVER. I DON’T HAVE MUCH TIME!”
Why explore? Off topic? > ***Really its all my wonderful friends of all ages and backgrounds. How we > form teams and use our creativity to solve problems ethically, with physical > skills and our tool kits. Laugh and love.
Why ghost canyons? Double off topic? > ***So that others can have the experience of the first too. keep dragging > that pack behind you, over the lip, slowing it all down. What’s the rush? > Ram
PS The ram-speak, lack of capitalization, punctuation, misspelling. Tough. > I’m tired and i only edited it once. Hope the meaning comes through anyway
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , Tim > Hoover wrote:
How could it be otherwise? Let me count the ways…
Hmmm, sorry for the delay – still counting.
Just curious, do you feel this responsibility extends in perpetuity or is > there some time limit?
Genuinely interested,
Tim
________________________________
From: TomJones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:58 AM
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
Totally serious.
How could it be otherwise?
Of course, I believe in more than 100% responsibility. The people who > visit the canyon are also 100% responsible for their actions. But I am too, > for BRINGING these people to this particular canyon.
>
RAM
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Why the rush? Wrong question I think. I don’t think it is a question of > rushing. It is the form of sharing that is the question. Sharing can take > on many forms (word of mouth, emails, Summit posts, Bogely posts, Yahoo > posts, personal blogs, web albums, Facebook and likely more). But rush or > not to rush is a different topic than the topic we have been discussing. We > are not talking about rushing or not. We are talking about sharing, keeping > secrets or something in the middle. Yes you can view the middle ground as a > slower way of letting things out, but it comes with negative impacts on > portions of the community.
I think “Why the Rush?” is a quite a valid question and a sound approach to the share or not to share or how to share discussion. If we were to agree that man’s drive to know all there is to know, will win the day, the question becomes WHEN will all this information be available? I can and do exert some influence here, as do countless others, including, not just a little, yourself. I support and advocate it all being known further down the road.
The HOW it is shared is the details and mechanism and is less important to ME than the WHEN. The goal vs. the method used to the goal. I said I have haphazard and conflicting goals. One is to slow the dissemination of all the beta, for all the remaining unknown canyons AND the goal to help spur exploration before that opportunity is lost to all forever, in all the remaining unknown canyons. And to have it done with the new, lower impact anchoring methods and have those methods spread. One pulls, one pushes. This puts me in YOUR middle ground I think. I don’t mean to taunt you or others.
I respect your decision to publish everything you do, even as I disagree with it. I hope my motivations aren’t so muddled as to not receive the same. The shame is that our differences often prevent us from getting out together, seeing as we both do a lot of exploring and both have a great sense of fun (if I am allowed to say that about myself). I know you are out right now “doing it.” Hope to see you at FreezeFest. on some neutral ground. Maybe for a Psycho or the like. Love ya man. Ram
> The issue I have with the middle ground is the feeling / view it can > generate in some people. Show don’t tell can take on an “in the club” feel. > Showing pics and stories but not revealing the location can take on a na na > na na na / taunting feel. That is what I have issue with. Those who get > invited along get to feel special and those doing the inviting get to set > the rules. Doesn’t feel too warm and fuzzy to me.
If you want it secret then by all means keep it secret. I have no issue > with it being secret even if all you want is your own personal playground. > There is nothing wrong with that as long as you do actually keep your mouth > and internet plug in quiet.
Side note: > And for the record I am not crying out because I am not allowed to go to > these places. I have been invited and have had hints at future invites to > some of these places. I personally have made a point of declining those > offers, since it violates how I feel about the method of sharing. I do not > want to be the person that propagates information in a way I personally do > not agree with. Un-like you Ram I have only one secret area to worry about. > I have no issues keeping to my word by following the conditions that come > with it. I have found that secret to impact a few of my social interactions > in a negative way and prefer not to add more of this complication to my > social life. Yes I consider my canyoneering friends part of my social life. > Truth be told they are pretty much my entire social life outside of work.
If you plan to share pics or stories, you have zero obligation to add a > plethora of beta or give a location, but if you are unwilling to give a > location when asked you will create an “in the club feel” for some of the > people asking you. Sharing all info in your first pic session or story is > not what I am talking about here. Anyone can put up pictures or stories and > not give a location, but if they refuse to tell you the location it can very > easily be interpreted as taunting or elitist or whatever. An important note > here is that rather that view is correct or not does not make the problem go > away.
Middle ground occurs when enticing information is given, like pics or > stories, then the location withheld. This can be done for many reasons, but > no matter what your reasons may be, it can generate negative reactions.
Why the rush? Why share all those wonderful pictures and stories as fast as > you can? If slow is what you want, how about keeping all your secret stuff. > well uh. secret and keeping quiet – – then occasionally share some pics or > a story and be happy to give locations for them when / if asked. With this > approach it is still let out at the pace you determine (pack dragging speed) > with no taunting in the mix at all. So, slow is not really the issue here. > Sharing just enough to get people interested then withholding info that will > allow them to go see it too, is what gets people riled up.
You don’t need “show don’t tell” to show a cool place to people you have > never met. Lots of noobs and experienced canyoneers alike love being taken > through a place by someone who has been there. And if that place is already > in a book or on a web site doesn’t taint the experience. You still met > someone new and got to watch the wow in their eyes. Show don’t tell only > adds the welcome to the club feel on top of it all. I have been very > appreciative of those who have taken me through places they already know, > even when I know it is in some orange book somewhere.
If someone wants to “protect” a canyon or a ruin or travertine or > maidenhair, then by all means keep everyone out and that includes even > themselves. Funny how I hear some people talk about protecting the fragile > things in a place by keeping it secret while they personally make repeated > visits and showing friends around who will likely bring in other friends > later. Not really secret is it? Not fully protected either?
If a canyon is next to stuff you still want to explore there is a real easy > way not to draw attention to it. Try not talking about it or sharing > pictures of it until you have explored the canyons near it that interest > you. See secret is not really a problem. It’s all about that middle ground > stuff again.
If 100’s of people have seen it, no it’s not really a secret. But if 100’s > of people have seen it but it is not shared with everyone, it is more a > middle ground. If 100’s of people have seen it but you have to have the > right social connections to be shown, is it really a club?
Ok all the banter aside. I think it is pretty clear that there are > different opinions on all this. And that was my original point. All share > or all secret is not such a big pot to stir up, you just pick a side that > reflects your views and go. But that middle ground stuff is a huge pot to > stir and there are lots of waves in there. I think in the end we all just > have to agree to disagree and try to enjoy the company of our fellow > canyoneers and dare I say friends.
Ram, there is another thread that can be perceived to be running through > your comments that stands out in contrast to keeping things secret.
First a quote from your last post…
* I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever > * i expect every canyon to be found. > *I post pictures that help that along > * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want > *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and i > feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that > *many are offended by pictures without names and beta > * i post pictures of everywhere i go > *most places i go have no beta > * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with > what you will. I may compare names and history….
Am I interpreting your intentions properly? Are you saying you post your > pictures to help the canyon discovery process along and you want people to > figure out where they are? Are you saying that if someone were to do that > then the canyon is theirs to do what they want with no hard feelings, since > that is what you encouraged anyway? Sure someone can do what they want with > publicly posted info. But my question to you is, do you really encourage > that so the canyons get found or would you in all honesty be upset if that > info were handled in a way you don’t agree with?
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of > adkramoo > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 9:57 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
Yes Tim…In perpetuity. > Gotta go tomorrow. Finally caught up just now. maybe everyone could do > without my opinion on this subject, but here goes anyway
Why keep secrets?
Mike Kelsey once said to me, with great energy, after I asked him what his > rush was to beta EVERY canyon on the plateau. he said….” I CAN’T WAIT. I > GOT TO GO NOW. MY FATHER TOSSED A BAIL OF HAY AT 73 AND DROPPED OVER. I > DON’T HAVE MUCH TIME!” He wants to bring them all to you. Its his gift to > you, freshly named or renamed, no matter. His prerogative.
Maybe my take is different because I have children who love this stuff. > Whats the rush? Is it still the golden age of canyoneering? Probably the > Silver age. Why not have it last? So sometimes when I keep a secret, it is > like dragging a pack over a drop. Slowing me enough so my partners can > capture me. What is the rush? Run out of good things to do? Done all the > classics? Shared them with all your friends?
This implies a grand philosophy and that would be a lie. Like most things > that happen for me, it is haphazard and I try to make it fit an ethic that > feels right. Welcome to my checkerboard. I will do some fessing up now. What > i say may or may not be true, but I believe it is.
* I know a lot of secret canyons > * Most of them were shared, with great enthusiasm, with me by a host of > other people > * they did so for a variety of reason but quite often because I shared with > them > * pioneers in different areas have an affinity for each other and share > openly. They know the nervousness of “the night before” perhaps. > * i treat their secrets with greater care than i treat my own. > * I use the show don’t tell for many reasons > * I like to share and and it sets a structure for me to bring person after > person to these places, increasing the frequency of my enjoyment > *many of the people taken were people I had not met the day before. i can’t > remember the name of the 2 lads in Fiddlestix. You out there? > *many great friends were made among these new folks who i did not know the > night before, right Denali Mike? > * i keep some canyons close because of concerns of access in the long term > *Sometimes it to protect a ruin > *sometimes its to protect travatine or maidenhair > * OFTEN it is because the canyon is next to other canyons that are on the > project list. The dante’s and warm springs were like that. We took over a > year to do the 2 systems at a relaxed pace, bringing many different pals in > on the exploration process. A canyon every month or so. > *the dantes became a show don’t tell because of the lag to finish the other > canyons. Proved to be a fun experiment. How long before they get out? > Hundreds of people that time > * is something a secret if 100’s of people are in on it? > * I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever > * i expect every canyon to be found. > *I post pictures that help that along > * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want > *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and i > feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that > *many are offended by pictures without names and beta > * i post pictures of everywhere i go > *most places i go have no beta > * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with > what you will. I may compare names and history…. > * i look for canyons to give out > * How a prospective gift canyon might get anchored matters to me > * While i often get criticized for keeping secrets, I almost never get > thanked for giving one out (see fiddlestix). If it were me.. 😉 > * the decision on status of new canyons is decided by the whole group that > did it > * in that process advocacy is encouraged, but it is a democracy and i am > often out voted. > *I keep canyons secret i advocated to have made public > *occasionally, but not often, i keep a canyon close so that I can caress it > on my way to doing it a slew of times-Selfish me in these cases. > * I continue to explore knowing that their are unknown canyons out there I > should not be in and i am likely to stumble into one > *Why? I CAN’T WAIT. I GOT TO GO NOW. MY FATHER WAS PLAYING RACQUET BALL AT > 62 AND DROPPED OVER. I DON’T HAVE MUCH TIME!”
Why explore? Off topic? > ***Really its all my wonderful friends of all ages and backgrounds. How we > form teams and use our creativity to solve problems ethically, with physical > skills and our tool kits. Laugh and love.
Why ghost canyons? Double off topic? > ***So that others can have the experience of the first too. keep dragging > that pack behind you, over the lip, slowing it all down. What’s the rush? > Ram
PS The ram-speak, lack of capitalization, punctuation, misspelling. Tough. > I’m tired and i only edited it once. Hope the meaning comes through anyway
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , Tim > Hoover wrote:
How could it be otherwise? Let me count the ways…
Hmmm, sorry for the delay – still counting.
Just curious, do you feel this responsibility extends in perpetuity or is > there some time limit?
Genuinely interested,
Tim
________________________________
From: TomJones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:58 AM
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
Totally serious.
How could it be otherwise?
Of course, I believe in more than 100% responsibility. The people who > visit the canyon are also 100% responsible for their actions. But I am too, > for BRINGING these people to this particular canyon.
>
Randi
And this should go on your blog too.You nailed it Stevee! And very kindly I might add.
— On Thu, 10/25/12, stevebrezovec stevebrezovec@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: stevebrezovec stevebrezovec@yahoo.com> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons To: Yahoo Canyons Group Date: Thursday, October 25, 2012, 10:06 PM
ÂÂ
Finding new canyons is hard work. For a single challenging canyon, it can involve hundreds of hours.
Poring over maps, studying geology, data collection on Google Earth and other internet research, gear expense (ropes for all drops, rim rescue ropes), team assembly, sometimes support teams, multiple scouting trips, drive time, etc.
There are people who invest heavily their time and resources to find canyons. They end up burning a lot of it doing a lot of dogs, too. A discovered gem is a precious gift, worthy of the time. The work invested makes you value it too, care deeply for the resources.
There is a pretty free exchange of the fruits between those who also work hard. There is also tremendous generosity in sharing the fruits with others who didn’t necessarily work so hard, but bring other value to the show – kindness, appreciation, companionship, humor, culinary skills, etc.
Then their are those who offer nothing, but want everything. What I hear people saying is that they are entitled to the information on these canyons. Even though there are hundreds of high quality beta’d canyons already given to them, free, no charge. In Utah you can do two every weekend for a year and still not get through them all. Get out and do that and you can’t help but meet and befriend these folks. I’m admittedly a bit misanthropic and socially clumsy and I have somehow managed it, as have some other misanthropes I know (you know who you are).
These folks see a “club” that they aren’t allowed into.
Maybe their is no “club”. Maybe no one wants to share with because you are greedy, lazy, entitled, selfish and unpleasant. If that is the case, perhaps it is time to put on shoes rather than attempt to carpet the world.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
>
> Yup it’s in my head. It is all in our heads. Your views, my views and
> others. So yup you got me there.
>
>
>
> Oh and if that guy with the sandwich was asked where he got his sandwich, I
> bet it would be no big deal for him to say something like “oh, I got it from
> home. My wife buys stuff at the grocery store and puts together some really
> good food.” Or he could respond with something like “I won’t tell you where
> I got it, but it sure is good!”.
>
>
>
> The problem isn’t in eating the sandwich in plain sight. Answering the
> question where it came from is free flowing info. Saying it is a secret
> provides a little of an exclusive feel for the guy with the sandwich. The
> analogy kinda breaks down to take it farther. But it is not eating it in
> plain sight that is an issue. It is how you respond to those asking about
> it.
>
>
>
> Sorry but bible quotes are a sure fire way to disengage me from a
> conversation.
>
> Luke
>
>
>
> From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of
> TomJones
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:43 PM
> To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
>
>
>
>
>
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke”
> wrote:
The issue I have with the middle ground is the feeling / view it can
generate in some people. Show don’t tell can take on an “in the club”
> feel. Showing pics and stories but not revealing the location can take on a
> na na na na na / taunting feel. That is what I have issue with.
>
> I’m in the lunchroom, facing down yet another bologna sandwich. I see at the
> next table, the guy from accounting who has a really nice ham sandwich, with
> swiss, some home-grown tomatoes and, oh my gosh, a couple strips of bacon.
> He is enjoying it immensely, I can tell by the look on his face.
>
> I don’t really know him, but I know he is taunting me. He is eating the
> sandwich IN PLAIN SIGHT. He must be doing it for a reason. His wife makes
> better sandwiches than my wife. What and A**wipe!
>
> Yahweh said:
>
> Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy
> neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor
> his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
> (KJV: Exodus 20: 1-17)
>
> The sin is in the coveting.
>
> The taunting – it is in your head. You have been invited into the “in
> group”. It doesn’t seem much of an in-group, since people get invited all
> the time. Want to get invited? Ask politely.
>
> If I show pics from canyons that are not beta’d, I do so for a purpose,
> which is a purpose other than taunting. I have fun out there and I like to
> share that with people. Also, I want people to realize that there is more to
> canyoneering than doing canyons that have been thoroughly beta’d, where all
> the anchors are in place, where everything in known. That is one aspect of
> canyoneering, but only one aspect. If people are willing to do the work,
> finding “new canyons” is an even greater adventure. Many will not choose to
> do the work. A few will.
>
> Stop blaming others for your coveting.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Rick @ Gmail
I have not read nearly all the “undisclosed canyons” posts so maybe others have expressed this sentiment already. If so then let me add to it with these thoughts.
As a seven year beginning canyoneer, I and my friends are extremely grateful for the beta that has been “shared” with us. Whether freely, word of mouth, or in a guide book or a subscription website. We have enough experience to know that what Steve B says is surely true with regard to the time and challenge of discovering a new canyon and creating the beta for it. The “price” we are asked to pay for this information is very low and the value is very high as we would not be inclined to explore many of these canyons ourselves without your beta. The memories we create and the adventure we experience is worth many times more than the “price” you ask us to pay. We thank you for your generosity and desire to share this information with us.
And part of that “price” is to be okay with the fact that you all have additional information about other canyons that we don’t and won’t have access to. Steve is also correct that there are many more canyons for us to do that have good beta than we are likely to get done in the coming years. Would we jump at the opportunity to descend a canyon that is new a fresh? Hell yeah we would and we would treasure it greatly. But we would never “expect” this to happen. It would be unexpected gift and we would be grateful. Just as we are grateful for the well documented information that has led to some new found fun in the Colorado Plateau.
I am not going to get into the conversation about how much or how many canyons if at all should be shared with whoever. This is dilemma that you all have to wrestle with. I am intrigued with the idea that there are canyons that should not be shared with anyone (or maybe even discovered) so that future generations might have the same experience. Whereas I would love for this to be “possible” it has basically not occurred at any time and point in history to date and so may be an unrealistic expectation. Our species is destined to explore, discover, share and exploit. We have done this for as long as we have walked upright and will likely do so for as long as we live.
My main desire of this email is the THANK YOU and everyone else who takes the time to explore, discover and share with the rest of us. Whether you should be sharing with us or now please Know that we Greatly Appreciate it. ! ! !
Thanks,
Rick
Mike Schasch
Agreed. Thanks for that.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “stevebrezovec” wrote:
> Finding new canyons is hard work. For a single challenging canyon, it can involve hundreds of hours. > Poring over maps, studying geology, data collection on Google Earth and other internet research, gear expense (ropes for all drops, rim rescue ropes), team assembly, sometimes support teams, multiple scouting trips, drive time, etc.
There are people who invest heavily their time and resources to find canyons. They end up burning a lot of it doing a lot of dogs, too. A discovered gem is a precious gift, worthy of the time. The work invested makes you value it too, care deeply for the resources.
There is a pretty free exchange of the fruits between those who also work hard. There is also tremendous generosity in sharing the fruits with others who didn’t necessarily work so hard, but bring other value to the show – kindness, appreciation, companionship, humor, culinary skills, etc.
Then their are those who offer nothing, but want everything. What I hear people saying is that they are entitled to the information on these canyons. Even though there are hundreds of high quality beta’d canyons already given to them, free, no charge. In Utah you can do two every weekend for a year and still not get through them all. Get out and do that and you can’t help but meet and befriend these folks. I’m admittedly a bit misanthropic and socially clumsy and I have somehow managed it, as have some other misanthropes I know (you know who you are).
These folks see a “club” that they aren’t allowed into.
Maybe their is no “club”. Maybe no one wants to share with because you are greedy, lazy, entitled, selfish and unpleasant. If that is the case, perhaps it is time to put on shoes rather than attempt to carpet the world.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Yup it’s in my head. It is all in our heads. Your views, my views and
others. So yup you got me there.
Oh and if that guy with the sandwich was asked where he got his sandwich, I
bet it would be no big deal for him to say something like “oh, I got it from
home. My wife buys stuff at the grocery store and puts together some really
good food.” Or he could respond with something like “I won’t tell you where
I got it, but it sure is good!”.
The problem isn’t in eating the sandwich in plain sight. Answering the
question where it came from is free flowing info. Saying it is a secret
provides a little of an exclusive feel for the guy with the sandwich. The
analogy kinda breaks down to take it farther. But it is not eating it in
plain sight that is an issue. It is how you respond to those asking about
it.
Sorry but bible quotes are a sure fire way to disengage me from a
conversation.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of
TomJones
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:43 PM
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke”
wrote:
The issue I have with the middle ground is the feeling / view it can
> generate in some people. Show don’t tell can take on an “in the club”
feel. Showing pics and stories but not revealing the location can take on a
na na na na na / taunting feel. That is what I have issue with.
I’m in the lunchroom, facing down yet another bologna sandwich. I see at the
next table, the guy from accounting who has a really nice ham sandwich, with
swiss, some home-grown tomatoes and, oh my gosh, a couple strips of bacon.
He is enjoying it immensely, I can tell by the look on his face.
I don’t really know him, but I know he is taunting me. He is eating the
sandwich IN PLAIN SIGHT. He must be doing it for a reason. His wife makes
better sandwiches than my wife. What and A**wipe!
Yahweh said:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy
neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor
his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
(KJV: Exodus 20: 1-17)
The sin is in the coveting.
The taunting – it is in your head. You have been invited into the “in
group”. It doesn’t seem much of an in-group, since people get invited all
the time. Want to get invited? Ask politely.
If I show pics from canyons that are not beta’d, I do so for a purpose,
which is a purpose other than taunting. I have fun out there and I like to
share that with people. Also, I want people to realize that there is more to
canyoneering than doing canyons that have been thoroughly beta’d, where all
the anchors are in place, where everything in known. That is one aspect of
canyoneering, but only one aspect. If people are willing to do the work,
finding “new canyons” is an even greater adventure. Many will not choose to
do the work. A few will.
Stop blaming others for your coveting.
Tom
>
stevebrezovec
Finding new canyons is hard work. For a single challenging canyon, it can involve hundreds of hours. Poring over maps, studying geology, data collection on Google Earth and other internet research, gear expense (ropes for all drops, rim rescue ropes), team assembly, sometimes support teams, multiple scouting trips, drive time, etc.
There are people who invest heavily their time and resources to find canyons. They end up burning a lot of it doing a lot of dogs, too. A discovered gem is a precious gift, worthy of the time. The work invested makes you value it too, care deeply for the resources.
There is a pretty free exchange of the fruits between those who also work hard. There is also tremendous generosity in sharing the fruits with others who didn’t necessarily work so hard, but bring other value to the show – kindness, appreciation, companionship, humor, culinary skills, etc.
Then their are those who offer nothing, but want everything. What I hear people saying is that they are entitled to the information on these canyons. Even though there are hundreds of high quality beta’d canyons already given to them, free, no charge. In Utah you can do two every weekend for a year and still not get through them all. Get out and do that and you can’t help but meet and befriend these folks. I’m admittedly a bit misanthropic and socially clumsy and I have somehow managed it, as have some other misanthropes I know (you know who you are).
These folks see a “club” that they aren’t allowed into.
Maybe their is no “club”. Maybe no one wants to share with because you are greedy, lazy, entitled, selfish and unpleasant. If that is the case, perhaps it is time to put on shoes rather than attempt to carpet the world.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Yup it’s in my head. It is all in our heads. Your views, my views and > others. So yup you got me there.
Oh and if that guy with the sandwich was asked where he got his sandwich, I > bet it would be no big deal for him to say something like “oh, I got it from > home. My wife buys stuff at the grocery store and puts together some really > good food.” Or he could respond with something like “I won’t tell you where > I got it, but it sure is good!”.
The problem isn’t in eating the sandwich in plain sight. Answering the > question where it came from is free flowing info. Saying it is a secret > provides a little of an exclusive feel for the guy with the sandwich. The > analogy kinda breaks down to take it farther. But it is not eating it in > plain sight that is an issue. It is how you respond to those asking about > it.
Sorry but bible quotes are a sure fire way to disengage me from a > conversation.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of > TomJones > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:43 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” > wrote:
The issue I have with the middle ground is the feeling / view it can
generate in some people. Show don’t tell can take on an “in the club” > feel. Showing pics and stories but not revealing the location can take on a > na na na na na / taunting feel. That is what I have issue with.
I’m in the lunchroom, facing down yet another bologna sandwich. I see at the > next table, the guy from accounting who has a really nice ham sandwich, with > swiss, some home-grown tomatoes and, oh my gosh, a couple strips of bacon. > He is enjoying it immensely, I can tell by the look on his face.
I don’t really know him, but I know he is taunting me. He is eating the > sandwich IN PLAIN SIGHT. He must be doing it for a reason. His wife makes > better sandwiches than my wife. What and A**wipe!
Yahweh said:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy > neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor > his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. > (KJV: Exodus 20: 1-17)
The sin is in the coveting.
The taunting – it is in your head. You have been invited into the “in > group”. It doesn’t seem much of an in-group, since people get invited all > the time. Want to get invited? Ask politely.
If I show pics from canyons that are not beta’d, I do so for a purpose, > which is a purpose other than taunting. I have fun out there and I like to > share that with people. Also, I want people to realize that there is more to > canyoneering than doing canyons that have been thoroughly beta’d, where all > the anchors are in place, where everything in known. That is one aspect of > canyoneering, but only one aspect. If people are willing to do the work, > finding “new canyons” is an even greater adventure. Many will not choose to > do the work. A few will.
Stop blaming others for your coveting.
Tom
>
hank moon
On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Michael thegowda@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hey, you guys make your own sandwiches! Let your wives be, so they can go > canyoneering.
Like, like it. Wishing for salami and mustard right now….
Michael
Hey, you guys make your own sandwiches! Let your wives be, so they can go canyoneering.
-Mike
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Yup it’s in my head. It is all in our heads. Your views, my views and > others. So yup you got me there.
Oh and if that guy with the sandwich was asked where he got his sandwich, I > bet it would be no big deal for him to say something like “oh, I got it from > home. My wife buys stuff at the grocery store and puts together some really > good food.” Or he could respond with something like “I won’t tell you where > I got it, but it sure is good!”.
The problem isn’t in eating the sandwich in plain sight. Answering the > question where it came from is free flowing info. Saying it is a secret > provides a little of an exclusive feel for the guy with the sandwich. The > analogy kinda breaks down to take it farther. But it is not eating it in > plain sight that is an issue. It is how you respond to those asking about > it.
Sorry but bible quotes are a sure fire way to disengage me from a > conversation.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of > TomJones > Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:43 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” > wrote:
The issue I have with the middle ground is the feeling / view it can
generate in some people. Show don’t tell can take on an “in the club” > feel. Showing pics and stories but not revealing the location can take on a > na na na na na / taunting feel. That is what I have issue with.
I’m in the lunchroom, facing down yet another bologna sandwich. I see at the > next table, the guy from accounting who has a really nice ham sandwich, with > swiss, some home-grown tomatoes and, oh my gosh, a couple strips of bacon. > He is enjoying it immensely, I can tell by the look on his face.
I don’t really know him, but I know he is taunting me. He is eating the > sandwich IN PLAIN SIGHT. He must be doing it for a reason. His wife makes > better sandwiches than my wife. What and A**wipe!
Yahweh said:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy > neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor > his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. > (KJV: Exodus 20: 1-17)
The sin is in the coveting.
The taunting – it is in your head. You have been invited into the “in > group”. It doesn’t seem much of an in-group, since people get invited all > the time. Want to get invited? Ask politely.
If I show pics from canyons that are not beta’d, I do so for a purpose, > which is a purpose other than taunting. I have fun out there and I like to > share that with people. Also, I want people to realize that there is more to > canyoneering than doing canyons that have been thoroughly beta’d, where all > the anchors are in place, where everything in known. That is one aspect of > canyoneering, but only one aspect. If people are willing to do the work, > finding “new canyons” is an even greater adventure. Many will not choose to > do the work. A few will.
Stop blaming others for your coveting.
Tom
>
Luke
Ah thanks. He did mention he would be gone for a while.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of TomJones Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:22 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
Ram is out in the wilds, won’t be jacked in until the end of the month.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” wrote:
Why the rush? Wrong question I think. I don’t think it is a question of rushing.
Luke
Yup it’s in my head. It is all in our heads. Your views, my views and others. So yup you got me there.
Oh and if that guy with the sandwich was asked where he got his sandwich, I bet it would be no big deal for him to say something like “oh, I got it from home. My wife buys stuff at the grocery store and puts together some really good food.” Or he could respond with something like “I won’t tell you where I got it, but it sure is good!”.
The problem isn’t in eating the sandwich in plain sight. Answering the question where it came from is free flowing info. Saying it is a secret provides a little of an exclusive feel for the guy with the sandwich. The analogy kinda breaks down to take it farther. But it is not eating it in plain sight that is an issue. It is how you respond to those asking about it.
Sorry but bible quotes are a sure fire way to disengage me from a conversation.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of TomJones Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:43 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” wrote:
The issue I have with the middle ground is the feeling / view it can > generate in some people. Show don’t tell can take on an “in the club” feel. Showing pics and stories but not revealing the location can take on a na na na na na / taunting feel. That is what I have issue with.
I’m in the lunchroom, facing down yet another bologna sandwich. I see at the next table, the guy from accounting who has a really nice ham sandwich, with swiss, some home-grown tomatoes and, oh my gosh, a couple strips of bacon. He is enjoying it immensely, I can tell by the look on his face.
I don’t really know him, but I know he is taunting me. He is eating the sandwich IN PLAIN SIGHT. He must be doing it for a reason. His wife makes better sandwiches than my wife. What and A**wipe!
Yahweh said:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. (KJV: Exodus 20: 1-17)
The sin is in the coveting.
The taunting – it is in your head. You have been invited into the “in group”. It doesn’t seem much of an in-group, since people get invited all the time. Want to get invited? Ask politely.
If I show pics from canyons that are not beta’d, I do so for a purpose, which is a purpose other than taunting. I have fun out there and I like to share that with people. Also, I want people to realize that there is more to canyoneering than doing canyons that have been thoroughly beta’d, where all the anchors are in place, where everything in known. That is one aspect of canyoneering, but only one aspect. If people are willing to do the work, finding “new canyons” is an even greater adventure. Many will not choose to do the work. A few will.
Stop blaming others for your coveting.
Tom
TomJones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
The issue I have with the middle ground is the feeling / view it can > generate in some people. Show don’t tell can take on an “in the club” feel. Showing pics and stories but not revealing the location can take on a na na na na na / taunting feel. That is what I have issue with.
I’m in the lunchroom, facing down yet another bologna sandwich. I see at the next table, the guy from accounting who has a really nice ham sandwich, with swiss, some home-grown tomatoes and, oh my gosh, a couple strips of bacon. He is enjoying it immensely, I can tell by the look on his face.
I don’t really know him, but I know he is taunting me. He is eating the sandwich IN PLAIN SIGHT. He must be doing it for a reason. His wife makes better sandwiches than my wife. What and A**wipe!
Yahweh said:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. (KJV: Exodus 20: 1-17)
The sin is in the coveting.
The taunting – it is in your head. You have been invited into the “in group”. It doesn’t seem much of an in-group, since people get invited all the time. Want to get invited? Ask politely.
If I show pics from canyons that are not beta’d, I do so for a purpose, which is a purpose other than taunting. I have fun out there and I like to share that with people. Also, I want people to realize that there is more to canyoneering than doing canyons that have been thoroughly beta’d, where all the anchors are in place, where everything in known. That is one aspect of canyoneering, but only one aspect. If people are willing to do the work, finding “new canyons” is an even greater adventure. Many will not choose to do the work. A few will.
Stop blaming others for your coveting.
Tom
TomJones
Ram is out in the wilds, won’t be jacked in until the end of the month.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Why the rush? Wrong question I think. I don’t think it is a question of rushing.
Luke
Why the rush? Wrong question I think. I don’t think it is a question of rushing. It is the form of sharing that is the question. Sharing can take on many forms (word of mouth, emails, Summit posts, Bogely posts, Yahoo posts, personal blogs, web albums, Facebook and likely more). But rush or not to rush is a different topic than the topic we have been discussing. We are not talking about rushing or not. We are talking about sharing, keeping secrets or something in the middle. Yes you can view the middle ground as a slower way of letting things out, but it comes with negative impacts on portions of the community.
The issue I have with the middle ground is the feeling / view it can generate in some people. Show don’t tell can take on an “in the club” feel. Showing pics and stories but not revealing the location can take on a na na na na na / taunting feel. That is what I have issue with. Those who get invited along get to feel special and those doing the inviting get to set the rules. Doesn’t feel too warm and fuzzy to me.
If you want it secret then by all means keep it secret. I have no issue with it being secret even if all you want is your own personal playground. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you do actually keep your mouth and internet plug in quiet.
Side note: And for the record I am not crying out because I am not allowed to go to these places. I have been invited and have had hints at future invites to some of these places. I personally have made a point of declining those offers, since it violates how I feel about the method of sharing. I do not want to be the person that propagates information in a way I personally do not agree with. Un-like you Ram I have only one secret area to worry about. I have no issues keeping to my word by following the conditions that come with it. I have found that secret to impact a few of my social interactions in a negative way and prefer not to add more of this complication to my social life. Yes I consider my canyoneering friends part of my social life. Truth be told they are pretty much my entire social life outside of work.
If you plan to share pics or stories, you have zero obligation to add a plethora of beta or give a location, but if you are unwilling to give a location when asked you will create an “in the club feel” for some of the people asking you. Sharing all info in your first pic session or story is not what I am talking about here. Anyone can put up pictures or stories and not give a location, but if they refuse to tell you the location it can very easily be interpreted as taunting or elitist or whatever. An important note here is that rather that view is correct or not does not make the problem go away.
Middle ground occurs when enticing information is given, like pics or stories, then the location withheld. This can be done for many reasons, but no matter what your reasons may be, it can generate negative reactions.
Why the rush? Why share all those wonderful pictures and stories as fast as you can? If slow is what you want, how about keeping all your secret stuff. well uh. secret and keeping quiet – – then occasionally share some pics or a story and be happy to give locations for them when / if asked. With this approach it is still let out at the pace you determine (pack dragging speed) with no taunting in the mix at all. So, slow is not really the issue here. Sharing just enough to get people interested then withholding info that will allow them to go see it too, is what gets people riled up.
You don’t need “show don’t tell” to show a cool place to people you have never met. Lots of noobs and experienced canyoneers alike love being taken through a place by someone who has been there. And if that place is already in a book or on a web site doesn’t taint the experience. You still met someone new and got to watch the wow in their eyes. Show don’t tell only adds the welcome to the club feel on top of it all. I have been very appreciative of those who have taken me through places they already know, even when I know it is in some orange book somewhere.
If someone wants to “protect” a canyon or a ruin or travertine or maidenhair, then by all means keep everyone out and that includes even themselves. Funny how I hear some people talk about protecting the fragile things in a place by keeping it secret while they personally make repeated visits and showing friends around who will likely bring in other friends later. Not really secret is it? Not fully protected either?
If a canyon is next to stuff you still want to explore there is a real easy way not to draw attention to it. Try not talking about it or sharing pictures of it until you have explored the canyons near it that interest you. See secret is not really a problem. It’s all about that middle ground stuff again.
If 100’s of people have seen it, no it’s not really a secret. But if 100’s of people have seen it but it is not shared with everyone, it is more a middle ground. If 100’s of people have seen it but you have to have the right social connections to be shown, is it really a club?
Ok all the banter aside. I think it is pretty clear that there are different opinions on all this. And that was my original point. All share or all secret is not such a big pot to stir up, you just pick a side that reflects your views and go. But that middle ground stuff is a huge pot to stir and there are lots of waves in there. I think in the end we all just have to agree to disagree and try to enjoy the company of our fellow canyoneers and dare I say friends.
Ram, there is another thread that can be perceived to be running through your comments that stands out in contrast to keeping things secret.
First a quote from your last post…
* I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever * i expect every canyon to be found. *I post pictures that help that along * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and i feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that *many are offended by pictures without names and beta * i post pictures of everywhere i go *most places i go have no beta * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with what you will. I may compare names and history….
Am I interpreting your intentions properly? Are you saying you post your pictures to help the canyon discovery process along and you want people to figure out where they are? Are you saying that if someone were to do that then the canyon is theirs to do what they want with no hard feelings, since that is what you encouraged anyway? Sure someone can do what they want with publicly posted info. But my question to you is, do you really encourage that so the canyons get found or would you in all honesty be upset if that info were handled in a way you don’t agree with?
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of adkramoo Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 9:57 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
Yes Tim…In perpetuity. Gotta go tomorrow. Finally caught up just now. maybe everyone could do without my opinion on this subject, but here goes anyway
Why keep secrets?
Mike Kelsey once said to me, with great energy, after I asked him what his rush was to beta EVERY canyon on the plateau. he said….” I CAN’T WAIT. I GOT TO GO NOW. MY FATHER TOSSED A BAIL OF HAY AT 73 AND DROPPED OVER. I DON’T HAVE MUCH TIME!” He wants to bring them all to you. Its his gift to you, freshly named or renamed, no matter. His prerogative.
Maybe my take is different because I have children who love this stuff. Whats the rush? Is it still the golden age of canyoneering? Probably the Silver age. Why not have it last? So sometimes when I keep a secret, it is like dragging a pack over a drop. Slowing me enough so my partners can capture me. What is the rush? Run out of good things to do? Done all the classics? Shared them with all your friends?
This implies a grand philosophy and that would be a lie. Like most things that happen for me, it is haphazard and I try to make it fit an ethic that feels right. Welcome to my checkerboard. I will do some fessing up now. What i say may or may not be true, but I believe it is.
* I know a lot of secret canyons * Most of them were shared, with great enthusiasm, with me by a host of other people * they did so for a variety of reason but quite often because I shared with them * pioneers in different areas have an affinity for each other and share openly. They know the nervousness of “the night before” perhaps. * i treat their secrets with greater care than i treat my own. * I use the show don’t tell for many reasons * I like to share and and it sets a structure for me to bring person after person to these places, increasing the frequency of my enjoyment *many of the people taken were people I had not met the day before. i can’t remember the name of the 2 lads in Fiddlestix. You out there? *many great friends were made among these new folks who i did not know the night before, right Denali Mike? * i keep some canyons close because of concerns of access in the long term *Sometimes it to protect a ruin *sometimes its to protect travatine or maidenhair * OFTEN it is because the canyon is next to other canyons that are on the project list. The dante’s and warm springs were like that. We took over a year to do the 2 systems at a relaxed pace, bringing many different pals in on the exploration process. A canyon every month or so. *the dantes became a show don’t tell because of the lag to finish the other canyons. Proved to be a fun experiment. How long before they get out? Hundreds of people that time * is something a secret if 100’s of people are in on it? * I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever * i expect every canyon to be found. *I post pictures that help that along * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and i feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that *many are offended by pictures without names and beta * i post pictures of everywhere i go *most places i go have no beta * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with what you will. I may compare names and history…. * i look for canyons to give out * How a prospective gift canyon might get anchored matters to me * While i often get criticized for keeping secrets, I almost never get thanked for giving one out (see fiddlestix). If it were me.. 😉 * the decision on status of new canyons is decided by the whole group that did it * in that process advocacy is encouraged, but it is a democracy and i am often out voted. *I keep canyons secret i advocated to have made public *occasionally, but not often, i keep a canyon close so that I can caress it on my way to doing it a slew of times-Selfish me in these cases. * I continue to explore knowing that their are unknown canyons out there I should not be in and i am likely to stumble into one *Why? I CAN’T WAIT. I GOT TO GO NOW. MY FATHER WAS PLAYING RACQUET BALL AT 62 AND DROPPED OVER. I DON’T HAVE MUCH TIME!”
Why explore? Off topic? ***Really its all my wonderful friends of all ages and backgrounds. How we form teams and use our creativity to solve problems ethically, with physical skills and our tool kits. Laugh and love.
Why ghost canyons? Double off topic? ***So that others can have the experience of the first too. keep dragging that pack behind you, over the lip, slowing it all down. What’s the rush? Ram
PS The ram-speak, lack of capitalization, punctuation, misspelling. Tough. I’m tired and i only edited it once. Hope the meaning comes through anyway
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , Tim Hoover wrote:
How could it be otherwise? Let me count the ways…
> Hmmm, sorry for the delay – still counting.
Just curious, do you feel this responsibility extends in perpetuity or is there some time limit?
Genuinely interested,
Tim
> ________________________________ > From: TomJones Of course, I believe in more than 100% responsibility. The people who visit the canyon are also 100% responsible for their actions. But I am too, for BRINGING these people to this particular canyon.
davewyo1
> The rope grooves in Woody make me sick.
**** Do they make you feel worse than the ones in Spry? In East Lep? In countless other canyons?
Yes they do. The ones in other canyons are an awful eyesore and every time I see them I probably go on some rant about how the grooves are not necessary if a little care was given to extending the anchor webbing to the lip of the drop. The ones in the canyons I published look the same, but I feel personally responsible for them. That was the point of my statement. I don’t know about how much certain people are responsible for each part of the equation. I’m not sure, but I think perpetuity is a bit much. After all, by that time I will be dead and my culpability will be watered down by all the other people who are 100% responsible 😉
Regardless of the extent of my culpability, I FEEL responsible for the grooves that have appeared in the canyons I have been first to popularize.
**** If you hadn’t outed those canyons, someone else would have eventually. Maybe someone with a bolt kit or G-pick.
Yes the possibility of a g-pickin’ bolter “outing” the canyons was certainly there. In that case I would not feel responsible, but I guess you’re saying that my way of putting out the canyon was better than other possible outcomes. I’m glad that you, and perhaps others, feel that way.
**** So, what are you up to these days? I’d sure hate to think I’d seen the last of you. >
I still go out to the desert all the time. I just don’t end up doing all that many canyons while I’m there. I’ve been hung up on researching the history of mining in Glen and Grand Canyon and that eats up quite a lot of my travel time. I hope to see you again soon.
> **** Oral transmission does not guarantee safety. Remember, you’re not just telling one group, you’re telling them and whoever they decide to tell, and whoever they decide to tell, and whoever they decide to tell, ad infinitum. (Bet you never saw Ram use fancy terms like that!)
Yes, I agree. I was just thinking that it would be easier for me to simply tell some friends. I’m aware that my responsibility, real or imagined, would be the same.
**** So, you see rope grooves in a canyon you initially reported on and feel bad. Would you feel any better if they had been there when you first descended them? Half the time when I go into what I think is a remote area in the Sierras I see inexcusable garbage, redundant fire rings, 4WD trails, chopped trees, and countless other signs of assholes. It makes me sick but I don’t feel responsible. Would I feel differently if it happened in an area I had popularized? Probably, but objectively I’m still not convinced that the blame doesn’t reside exclusively with those who do the damage. Anyway, it seems like a very muddy area and that is why I can’t really argue with anyone, no matter what their policy is regarding canyon reporting.
**** Tim >
You nailed it perfectly in the above example. I was saying that you WILL feel responsible, even if you are not. I’m not saying you won’t be able to live with yourself after popularizing some canyons, I’m saying that you will find that it is different than if you had nothing to do with it. That difference may be subtle and a product of your own mental processes, but it will be there…
Dave
kuenn_k2
As for “haphazard” your ethics have a very consistent thread running through them…sharing with respect.
And thank you, expressly (and others), for sharing pics; for some of us it is the only way to experience canyoneering on a vicarious regular basis…just for a brief moment it’s almost like being there.
-k
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
Yes Tim…In perpetuity. > Gotta go tomorrow. Finally caught up just now. maybe everyone could do without my opinion on this subject, but here goes anyway
Why keep secrets?
Mike Kelsey once said to me, with great energy, after I asked him what his rush was to beta EVERY canyon on the plateau. he said….” I CAN’T WAIT. I GOT TO GO NOW. MY FATHER TOSSED A BAIL OF HAY AT 73 AND DROPPED OVER. I DON’T HAVE MUCH TIME!” He wants to bring them all to you. Its his gift to you, freshly named or renamed, no matter. His prerogative.
Maybe my take is different because I have children who love this stuff. Whats the rush? Is it still the golden age of canyoneering? Probably the Silver age. Why not have it last? So sometimes when I keep a secret, it is like dragging a pack over a drop. Slowing me enough so my partners can capture me. What is the rush? Run out of good things to do? Done all the classics? Shared them with all your friends?
This implies a grand philosophy and that would be a lie. Like most things that happen for me, it is haphazard and I try to make it fit an ethic that feels right. Welcome to my checkerboard. I will do some fessing up now. What i say may or may not be true, but I believe it is.
* I know a lot of secret canyons > * Most of them were shared, with great enthusiasm, with me by a host of other people > * they did so for a variety of reason but quite often because I shared with them > * pioneers in different areas have an affinity for each other and share openly. They know the nervousness of “the night before” perhaps. > * i treat their secrets with greater care than i treat my own. > * I use the show don’t tell for many reasons > * I like to share and and it sets a structure for me to bring person after person to these places, increasing the frequency of my enjoyment > *many of the people taken were people I had not met the day before. i can’t remember the name of the 2 lads in Fiddlestix. You out there? > *many great friends were made among these new folks who i did not know the night before, right Denali Mike? > * i keep some canyons close because of concerns of access in the long term > *Sometimes it to protect a ruin > *sometimes its to protect travatine or maidenhair > * OFTEN it is because the canyon is next to other canyons that are on the project list. The dante’s and warm springs were like that. We took over a year to do the 2 systems at a relaxed pace, bringing many different pals in on the exploration process. A canyon every month or so. > *the dantes became a show don’t tell because of the lag to finish the other canyons. Proved to be a fun experiment. How long before they get out? Hundreds of people that time > * is something a secret if 100’s of people are in on it? > * I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever > * i expect every canyon to be found. > *I post pictures that help that along > * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want > *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and i feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that > *many are offended by pictures without names and beta > * i post pictures of everywhere i go > *most places i go have no beta > * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with what you will. I may compare names and history…. > * i look for canyons to give out > * How a prospective gift canyon might get anchored matters to me > * While i often get criticized for keeping secrets, I almost never get thanked for giving one out (see fiddlestix). If it were me.. 😉 > * the decision on status of new canyons is decided by the whole group that did it > * in that process advocacy is encouraged, but it is a democracy and i am often out voted. > *I keep canyons secret i advocated to have made public > *occasionally, but not often, i keep a canyon close so that I can caress it on my way to doing it a slew of times-Selfish me in these cases. > * I continue to explore knowing that their are unknown canyons out there I should not be in and i am likely to stumble into one > *Why? I CAN’T WAIT. I GOT TO GO NOW. MY FATHER WAS PLAYING RACQUET BALL AT 62 AND DROPPED OVER. I DON’T HAVE MUCH TIME!”
Why explore? Off topic? > ***Really its all my wonderful friends of all ages and backgrounds. How we form teams and use our creativity to solve problems ethically, with physical skills and our tool kits. Laugh and love.
Why ghost canyons? Double off topic? > ***So that others can have the experience of the first too. keep dragging that pack behind you, over the lip, slowing it all down. What’s the rush? > Ram
PS The ram-speak, lack of capitalization, punctuation, misspelling. Tough. I’m tired and i only edited it once. Hope the meaning comes through anyway
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, Tim Hoover wrote:
How could it be otherwise? Let me count the ways…
Â
Â
Hmmm, sorry for the delay – still counting.
Â
Just curious, do you feel this responsibility extends in perpetuity or is there some time limit?
Â
Genuinely interested,
Â
Tim
________________________________
From: TomJones To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:58 AM
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
Totally serious.
How could it be otherwise?
Of course, I believe in more than 100% responsibility. The people who visit the canyon are also 100% responsible for their actions. But I am too, for BRINGING these people to this particular canyon. >
adkramoo
Yes Tim…In perpetuity. Gotta go tomorrow. Finally caught up just now. maybe everyone could do without my opinion on this subject, but here goes anyway
Why keep secrets?
Mike Kelsey once said to me, with great energy, after I asked him what his rush was to beta EVERY canyon on the plateau. he said….” I CAN’T WAIT. I GOT TO GO NOW. MY FATHER TOSSED A BAIL OF HAY AT 73 AND DROPPED OVER. I DON’T HAVE MUCH TIME!” He wants to bring them all to you. Its his gift to you, freshly named or renamed, no matter. His prerogative.
Maybe my take is different because I have children who love this stuff. Whats the rush? Is it still the golden age of canyoneering? Probably the Silver age. Why not have it last? So sometimes when I keep a secret, it is like dragging a pack over a drop. Slowing me enough so my partners can capture me. What is the rush? Run out of good things to do? Done all the classics? Shared them with all your friends?
This implies a grand philosophy and that would be a lie. Like most things that happen for me, it is haphazard and I try to make it fit an ethic that feels right. Welcome to my checkerboard. I will do some fessing up now. What i say may or may not be true, but I believe it is.
* I know a lot of secret canyons * Most of them were shared, with great enthusiasm, with me by a host of other people * they did so for a variety of reason but quite often because I shared with them * pioneers in different areas have an affinity for each other and share openly. They know the nervousness of “the night before” perhaps. * i treat their secrets with greater care than i treat my own. * I use the show don’t tell for many reasons * I like to share and and it sets a structure for me to bring person after person to these places, increasing the frequency of my enjoyment *many of the people taken were people I had not met the day before. i can’t remember the name of the 2 lads in Fiddlestix. You out there? *many great friends were made among these new folks who i did not know the night before, right Denali Mike? * i keep some canyons close because of concerns of access in the long term *Sometimes it to protect a ruin *sometimes its to protect travatine or maidenhair * OFTEN it is because the canyon is next to other canyons that are on the project list. The dante’s and warm springs were like that. We took over a year to do the 2 systems at a relaxed pace, bringing many different pals in on the exploration process. A canyon every month or so. *the dantes became a show don’t tell because of the lag to finish the other canyons. Proved to be a fun experiment. How long before they get out? Hundreds of people that time * is something a secret if 100’s of people are in on it? * I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever * i expect every canyon to be found. *I post pictures that help that along * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and i feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that *many are offended by pictures without names and beta * i post pictures of everywhere i go *most places i go have no beta * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with what you will. I may compare names and history…. * i look for canyons to give out * How a prospective gift canyon might get anchored matters to me * While i often get criticized for keeping secrets, I almost never get thanked for giving one out (see fiddlestix). If it were me.. 😉 * the decision on status of new canyons is decided by the whole group that did it * in that process advocacy is encouraged, but it is a democracy and i am often out voted. *I keep canyons secret i advocated to have made public *occasionally, but not often, i keep a canyon close so that I can caress it on my way to doing it a slew of times-Selfish me in these cases. * I continue to explore knowing that their are unknown canyons out there I should not be in and i am likely to stumble into one *Why? I CAN’T WAIT. I GOT TO GO NOW. MY FATHER WAS PLAYING RACQUET BALL AT 62 AND DROPPED OVER. I DON’T HAVE MUCH TIME!”
Why explore? Off topic? ***Really its all my wonderful friends of all ages and backgrounds. How we form teams and use our creativity to solve problems ethically, with physical skills and our tool kits. Laugh and love.
Why ghost canyons? Double off topic? ***So that others can have the experience of the first too. keep dragging that pack behind you, over the lip, slowing it all down. What’s the rush? Ram
PS The ram-speak, lack of capitalization, punctuation, misspelling. Tough. I’m tired and i only edited it once. Hope the meaning comes through anyway
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Tim Hoover wrote:
How could it be otherwise? Let me count the ways… > Â >Â > Hmmm, sorry for the delay – still counting. > Â > Just curious, do you feel this responsibility extends in perpetuity or is there some time limit? > Â > Genuinely interested, > Â > Tim
> ________________________________ > From: TomJones Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
Totally serious.
How could it be otherwise?
> Of course, I believe in more than 100% responsibility. The people who visit the canyon are also 100% responsible for their actions. But I am too, for BRINGING these people to this particular canyon.
TomJones
Nice post Tim, thanks.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Tim Vollmer wrote:
… Interestingly, there are canyons with extensive beta, that are incredibly good, that get almost no visitation. That is because many of our canyons require long walks, difficult scrub (ask Deeps to tell you about Aussie scrub!!!), challenging navigation and long days. This is enough to turn away 99% of recreational canyoneers.
It’s the snakes that concern me.
Jus’ Sayin’…
Tom
adkramoo
The place with the most traffic. The place with most bolts. The place with the most grooves….. is the same place
If it were only so easy
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Neil” wrote:
Hank,
Can you imagine the thread … “Placement of ‘appropriate’ bolt stations sought to eliminate rope damage. Land managers threaten closures.”
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon wrote:
If / when rope grooves get on land managers’ radars, could they
potentially be used to justify access restrictions? It seems that
flimsier pretexts have been used in the past… >
adkramoo
what did I like best about the Spearhead description in the book? It gave no approach beta at all. Figuring it out was grand. Luke, i too have a failed Spearhead in the dossier
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Just checkin’
Spearhead is on your latest raves with info isn’t it and I have a failed > attempt listed on my site that gives detailed approach info. So nothing new > there.