— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke”
> Using methods like “show don’t tell” do slow things down. > benefit of the doubt and say the show don’t tell experience can slow things> being known by 15 years. Thinking of it this way the show don’t tell stuff> will trickle into public awareness within our lifetime. So you have slowed> it down by say one generation. Not really a big deal in the grand scheme,> unless you enjoy the drama or plan to leverage the knowledge in some way.
While it might not be a big deal to you, it is a very big deal to me. Aaron Ramras too. 15 years for a larger group of people to probe out and have the exploration experience actually sounds quite nice. I think that is about how long it will last. There are more canyons out there not found than people believe. As for the “enjoying drama” and “leverage of knowledge” comment, I was initially quite put off by this comment. Projecting motivations onto others is a difficult, if not impossible task to get right. It is hard to escape the mirror. For me anyway. We can only be in our own skin, but then I realized that I have used the leverage of knowledge to further my agenda once. I shall confess
Before the publishing of the 2nd edition of the Kelsey tech book, Mike approached me, requesting that I give him all of the canyons i knew about that he didn’t, so he could publish them. I saw an opportunity and opened a negotiation with him, offering him canyon beta in exchange for him disavowing the use of the G-Pick and bolting, especially in areas where it is illegal. I probably would have gone through with it, but of course, Mike could not. It had to be very hard on him not to go for it
I would like to share the wording of Mike’s offer, before moving on. Mike to me. “If you give me all these unknown canyons, I will give you all of the one’s I am about to publish, so you can do them before they are ruined.” While Mike’s use of language matches my own for…..ahhhh…. creative license, I think it’s fair to say that he thinks beta-ing canyons has impacts
> I find it unfortunate that a better way to > accomplish this has not been found. People feeling left out or teased or > taunted or whatever label you want to put on it, is not how I like to see> people interact.
I am sorry that people feel that way. When they handed out common sense, i missed some of that. I also missed the envy and coveting line too. I look at your life. Its a wonderful one. You are doing tons of adventures, with great people and you are out a lot when i am home working. You have a fabulous sense of fun too. i wish i could spend more time with you. It would never occur to me to feels pangs of jealousy. But i wonder if others do? They see you blog and look at your life….I wonder. The point is, you can’t control how other people feel about you. For one thing it is not yours to own. It belongs to others. You just have to be true to yourself and let it rip. Not to say that your opinion did not get taken into full consideration. Three albums were not published from this last trip, off of your’s and another s sensibilities. Is anyone a loser or winner, here? Who and how? Opinions anyone?
With all that said I am still curious about the question I asked earlier in > this post. > You wrote
* I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever > * i expect every canyon to be found. > *I post pictures that help that along > * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want > *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and I > feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that > *many are offended by pictures without names and beta > * i post pictures of everywhere i go > *most places i go have no beta > * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with > what you will. I may compare names and history…. >
> Am I interpreting your intentions properly?
Are you saying you post your pictures to help the canyon discovery process > along and you want people to figure out where they are?
what was lost in the partial list of my bullet points is that I am trying to encourage exploration while there is still time. having canyons discovered along the way is just part of the price. I have admitted that these goals, slowing publishing and encouraging exploration are at opposition to each other. There are many unflattering names you can call me if you wish, hypocrite at the fore perhaps
> Are you saying that if someone were to do that then the canyon is theirs to > do what they want with no hard feelings, since that is what you encouraged> anyway?
Even without my encouragement too. I don’t feel loss or pain when new canyons get put out there. When kelsey published his 2nd edition, there were 24 canyons i had done, that did not have beta, that he published. I admit I reviewed the table of contents with great energy to see what he found and what he missed, but hard feelings? Nah. I was concerned about the amount of X canyons divulged and said so to anyone who would listen. Since then i have modified my position on this. There has been no rush into trouble on a broad level, with the possible exception of Egypt 4
> Sure someone can do what they want with publicly posted info. > But my question to you is, do you really encourage that so the canyons get > found or would you in all honesty be upset if that info were handled in a > way you don’t agree with?
Upset about canyons being found? NO Upset about how ANY canyon gets treated..bolts, graffiti etc. yes. Published or unpublished. I do not believe I have control with that. I don’t believe publishing beta mitigates these negative things from happening. Just my opinion from the time observing.
We will have to have good times in places where our views do not > clash.
And i will let everyone know we have been chatting sideband, like the friends that we are, scheduling just such a trip. I am off to the desert tomorrow Ram
Luke
So it’s more about getting people out to explore than it is for the canyons to be found. If canyons are found then published it can be a mixed bag on how ya feel. If it is one you found, then that is just one of the prices for encouraging exploration and no hard feelings. But I get it that if it were a canyon someone else showed you, that would open another can of worms with its own issues.
Thanks for the clarification. Nice to “get it”.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of RAM Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 3:37 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
I have not purposefully avoided answering this question. It just it seems to be several questions. I shared my personal conflicted self by the order of of my bullets and their completeness. The order I presented them matters. See below from you. Try reading the 4th line 3rd, and the 3rd line 4th. Makes for a whole different meaning and one closer to mine. I am not sure if I erred in presentation or if the meaning was lost along the way
>You mentioned in a post from earlier in this thread that…
You don’t want canyons to stay secret forever. > You expect every canyon to be found. > You post pictures to help that along. > You want us to figure it out and explore… > If we find a canyon that you keep close to the breast, it is ours to with > what we will.
Answering what’s below, below it
> Would you be upset if a canyon were found as a result of pictures you posted > and that canyon was then published? > Your bullet pointed post said you put up pictures to encourage exploration> and that if someone found a canyon you hold close to your breast, it is> theirs to do with as they please.
This can be taken to mean that you encourage a canyon to be found via your> pictures and that it is fair game if it is found that way and there would be> no hard feelings.
I know of several folks who have found canyons from words and pictures over the years. Joe and Sara finding some of Todd’s stuff was amazing and led to a productive partnership for a good long time. I know canyons have been found from my pictures. These folks generally contact me directly. It has led to new partnerships for me too. Just this last week an occasional, but long time poster on this board had a long exchange with me about land issues, after plucking another of my canyons he recognized from years of extensive back country travel in Utah. These folks have chosen not to broadband. perhaps some canyons published had there roots in my pictures. I don’t know and really don’t care.
I do pick the pictures that I publish carefully. Not giving away obvious landscape pictures, but also purposefully allowing subtle hints here and there. Many have contacted me to say that they enjoy the chase and to keep it up. Others have been offended by what they feel is taunting. can’t please everyone.
It is important to me and I try to leave no hints, in the pictures of canyons others have shared with me. I only post pictures of canyons that others have shared with me, with permission.
I would NOT be upset if others found and published a canyon from my pictures of a canyon that I have found. I can think of some that might sadden me a tad, if they went public, but never upset. I am encouraging exploration and these folks would still have to do the exploration themselves. Most of these canyon were ghosted so they get the full experience of discovery, including forming a team, perhaps scouting and guessing what they need to bring, perhaps a sleepless night and actually DOING it! I am very happy for them.
If a canyon someone showed me was found, from my pictures, I would be very disappointed with myself and owe a great debt to that person. Fortunately, that has not happened yet. R
RAM
I have not purposefully avoided answering this question. It just it seems to be several questions. I shared my personal conflicted self by the order of of my bullets and their completeness. The order I presented them matters. See below from you. Try reading the 4th line 3rd, and the 3rd line 4th. Makes for a whole different meaning and one closer to mine. I am not sure if I erred in presentation or if the meaning was lost along the way
>You mentioned in a post from earlier in this thread that…
You don’t want canyons to stay secret forever. > You expect every canyon to be found. > You post pictures to help that along. > You want us to figure it out and explore… > If we find a canyon that you keep close to the breast, it is ours to with > what we will.
Answering what’s below, below it
> Would you be upset if a canyon were found as a result of pictures you posted > and that canyon was then published? > Your bullet pointed post said you put up pictures to encourage exploration> and that if someone found a canyon you hold close to your breast, it is> theirs to do with as they please.
This can be taken to mean that you encourage a canyon to be found via your> pictures and that it is fair game if it is found that way and there would be> no hard feelings.
I know of several folks who have found canyons from words and pictures over the years. Joe and Sara finding some of Todd’s stuff was amazing and led to a productive partnership for a good long time. I know canyons have been found from my pictures. These folks generally contact me directly. It has led to new partnerships for me too. Just this last week an occasional, but long time poster on this board had a long exchange with me about land issues, after plucking another of my canyons he recognized from years of extensive back country travel in Utah. These folks have chosen not to broadband. perhaps some canyons published had there roots in my pictures. I don’t know and really don’t care.
I do pick the pictures that I publish carefully. Not giving away obvious landscape pictures, but also purposefully allowing subtle hints here and there. Many have contacted me to say that they enjoy the chase and to keep it up. Others have been offended by what they feel is taunting. can’t please everyone.
It is important to me and I try to leave no hints, in the pictures of canyons others have shared with me. I only post pictures of canyons that others have shared with me, with permission.
I would NOT be upset if others found and published a canyon from my pictures of a canyon that I have found. I can think of some that might sadden me a tad, if they went public, but never upset. I am encouraging exploration and these folks would still have to do the exploration themselves. Most of these canyon were ghosted so they get the full experience of discovery, including forming a team, perhaps scouting and guessing what they need to bring, perhaps a sleepless night and actually DOING it! I am very happy for them.
If a canyon someone showed me was found, from my pictures, I would be very disappointed with myself and owe a great debt to that person. Fortunately, that has not happened yet. R
Luke
Ram, I never did get an answer to my specific question. I would like to know that I understand what you are saying and feel the need to push this question out there a fourth time so I may gain that understanding. I would like a direct answer so I will try to be as direct in my question as possible.
You mentioned in a post from earlier in this thread that…
You don’t want canyons to stay secret forever.
You expect every canyon to be found.
You post pictures to help that along.
You want us to figure it out and explore…
If we find a canyon that you keep close to the breast, it is ours to with what we will.
From what you posted I could assume you meant something specific.
But you know what we say about assuming right?
I am not asking if you are ok with canyons being published.
I am not asking about your feelings on how a canyon is treated.
I am not asking if you are upset if canyons are found in the general terms.
It is nice to know about these aspects but my question is much more specific.
Would you be upset if a canyon were found as a result of pictures you posted and that canyon was then published?
Your bullet pointed post said you put up pictures to encourage exploration and that if someone found a canyon you hold close to your breast, it is theirs to do with as they please.
This can be taken to mean that you encourage a canyon to be found via your pictures and that it is fair game if it is found that way and there would be no hard feelings.
I wanted to clarify this and see if I got the intended meaning.
Or did you mean someone could do what they want. but you would still be upset about it?
Finding a canyon via pictures has been done by various people in the past (myself included). So it is safe to say that someone could find a canyon using your pictures.
My specific question is, would it upset you if that happened and the canyon got published? Or would you be happy about it, since that is part of the reason you post the images?
I only seek full understanding of your views.
This one is kind of a big one for me as I happen to worry more about the “How” than the “When”.
Luke
.
RAM
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Just checkin’
Spearhead is on your latest raves with info isn’t it and I have a failed > attempt listed on my site that gives detailed approach info. So nothing new > there.
I just LOVED this from his guidebook. A whole book generously telling the way to, way through and way home to many canyons. But this one? No approach info. I took it to mean, if you can’t find your way there you probably shouldn’t be there….or……a gift to me, challenging me to figure it out on my own. The perfect canyon to do it with too. A wilderness canyon. Oh what great fun. Thanks Tom
marlowequart
There is a respect and treasuring that comes when you have to work hard to attain something. You did your own exploration and investment, so perhaps that contributed to your feelings of reverence for the experience and for the resource.
When things are just handed to us, we tend to treat them with less care. It’s just human nature. Some resources aren’t sturdy enough to bear that haphazard treatment, so those I hold off the radar. >
I would say its more in line with human nature to respect and cherish these natural places, wether discovered by our own troubles or someone elses. It is our culture that teaches us to fight and overcome nature. When nature is the enemy, its no problem to trash it.
I like it when people who share info also share their ethics, possibly opening my mind and the minds of other people out there to a new approach to enjoying nature. I think many of the ideas about respecting nature that experienced outdoors enthusiasts take for granted and dont often talk about are very eye opening for many people out there, especially people who are new to outdoor adventures. Sharing info can be a great way to work towards conservation if done well.
If someone doesnt want to share info, it really means nothing to me. Discovering new places is awesome. There are shitloads of awesome places that have already been discovered. I just enjoy being out there period.
kuenn_k2
Way off topic here, so please ignore unless interested; comments below.
Joe, I’m not trying to be disagreeable, just identifying misleading/contrasting views.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
Yes this is true in the southeast. However caves in your area are not as fragile as these out here in the West.
I could present numerous places and pictures that would give you pause to this view, but yes, the southwest does have some spectacular world class examples, Lechuguilla being the crown jewel. I have done significant caving in TX, NM, UT and AZ so I’m not unfamiliar with the differences.
>TAG has mostly wet caves that regularly flooded and thus not as fragile, but yes still need protection, I agree.
Less than 10% flood, most have water because that’s an essential element in formation… but rarely flood. I guess it all depends on what the definition of flood is. No, we don’t have sulfuric acid or thermal developed caves… wind and water and time, much like canyon formation.
> And many of the caves you are talking about are on private property reguiring written permission to access them (some cases not). In some cases many have been closed.
Very true, regarding private land, a major difference to the west. Written permission is extremely rare, almost zero percent, verbal permission absolutely, unless you like getting shot at.
>This happens when anyone with a membership can get gps points and get caught tresspassing on private land.
Absolutely true, if you own it you control it… as it should be. As a caving community we spend considerable time and money working with landowners to improve this situation, offering free gating service where needed.
>I guess there are indeed similarities to the caving/canyoneering world.
Yep, that’s why I enjoy them both!
> We gate caves out here in the west, mostly to keep the yahoos from trashing them, spray painting, and ruining them. We work in conjunction with the National Forests. You must get a key from a “key keeper” mainly the head of the local grotto and they will either take you to it or if your credentials have been confirmed they will let you enter on your own. > -Joe D.
Totally agree. We also gate, unfortunately. However, we do have one advantage, many of our best-of-the-best are naturally gated i.e. with vertical pits which tend to keep the thundering herd down to a domesticated gaggle.
-k2
JosephD/Sara
Yes this is true in the southeast. However caves in your area are not as fragile as these out here in the West. TAG has mostly wet caves that regularly flooded and thus not as fragile, but yes still need protection, I agree. And many of the caves you are talking about are on private property reguiring written permission to access them (some cases not). In some cases many have been closed. This happens when anyone with a membership can get gps points and get caught tresspassing on private land. I guess there are indeed similarities to the caving/canyoneering world. We gate caves out here in the west, mostly to keep the yahoos from trashing them, spray painting, and ruining them. We work in conjunction with the National Forests. You must get a key from a “key keeper” mainly the head of the local grotto and they will either take you to it or if your credentials have been confirmed they will let you enter on your own. -Joe D.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “kuenn_k2” wrote:
Off topic: > In regard to the caving community being a “million†times more secretive, well maybe that’s a regional thing. Here in the southeast as a member of TAG (Tn, Al, Ga) there are upwards of 15,000 caves between the three states where all you have to do is acquire a NSS number and about 10 bucks for Cave Survey membership. This will gain you access to cave maps, beta and gps coordinates for more trips than you can make in a life time.
On topic: > The term “observer effect†in physics denotes the changes that occur as a result of the act of observation on an object. In other words, you cannot observe something without changing it. That certainly applies to all phenomenon of nature.
So what exactly are we trying to define. If we’re attempting to outline the extent of disclosure in order to protect the assets, then any degree of don’t tell, show or don’t show, keep private for the “chosen few†will eventually, over time, end up in the same place…full public view.
The caving community may be a little further down this path (only because of the age of the trade) but still struggle with parallel issues. The irony is, if you truly want to keep it pristine then by all means LEAVE IT ALONE, of which I’m not an activist. The remedial effort to any level of disclosure then is to educate, monitor, report and enforce. I consider myself to have been a very fortunate apprentice of this learning method.
I will briefly digress here: My first exposure as an adventurer to the hidden underground was in 1971, a couple years shy of knot-head-ager. Our trip leader spent several minutes at the entrance of a cave to instruct the group. Time well spent. He explained, to our level of understanding, how it was formed, the delicate environment we were about to enter as guests and how we should protect it, as well as the danger of not following rules, to self and the ecosystem. In retrospect this may have been the most valuable and effective in-field lessons we could have received. The time and place – perfect – where we could not only see but feel the cool airflow emitting from a world of intrigue. This technique is equally effective with both young and old.
For this and many other reasons I am a disciple of don’t tell, show. In showing you have the opportunity to instruct, educate and observe. Will it make a difference? Yes, it will. Is it bomb proof, no? There looms on any given weekend a thundering herd that can trash a good thing and destroy years of preservation, but, hopefully the herd will not include any of your understudies.
-kuenn
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
If people here think that canyon secrecy is bad, then don’t ever go caving. The caving world is a million times worse than canyon secrets will ever be. >
kuenn_k2
Off topic: In regard to the caving community being a “million†times more secretive, well maybe that’s a regional thing. Here in the southeast as a member of TAG (Tn, Al, Ga) there are upwards of 15,000 caves between the three states where all you have to do is acquire a NSS number and about 10 bucks for Cave Survey membership. This will gain you access to cave maps, beta and gps coordinates for more trips than you can make in a life time.
On topic: The term “observer effect†in physics denotes the changes that occur as a result of the act of observation on an object. In other words, you cannot observe something without changing it. That certainly applies to all phenomenon of nature.
So what exactly are we trying to define. If we’re attempting to outline the extent of disclosure in order to protect the assets, then any degree of don’t tell, show or don’t show, keep private for the “chosen few†will eventually, over time, end up in the same place…full public view.
The caving community may be a little further down this path (only because of the age of the trade) but still struggle with parallel issues. The irony is, if you truly want to keep it pristine then by all means LEAVE IT ALONE, of which I’m not an activist. The remedial effort to any level of disclosure then is to educate, monitor, report and enforce. I consider myself to have been a very fortunate apprentice of this learning method.
I will briefly digress here: My first exposure as an adventurer to the hidden underground was in 1971, a couple years shy of knot-head-ager. Our trip leader spent several minutes at the entrance of a cave to instruct the group. Time well spent. He explained, to our level of understanding, how it was formed, the delicate environment we were about to enter as guests and how we should protect it, as well as the danger of not following rules, to self and the ecosystem. In retrospect this may have been the most valuable and effective in-field lessons we could have received. The time and place – perfect – where we could not only see but feel the cool airflow emitting from a world of intrigue. This technique is equally effective with both young and old.
For this and many other reasons I am a disciple of don’t tell, show. In showing you have the opportunity to instruct, educate and observe. Will it make a difference? Yes, it will. Is it bomb proof, no? There looms on any given weekend a thundering herd that can trash a good thing and destroy years of preservation, but, hopefully the herd will not include any of your understudies.
-kuenn
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote:
If people here think that canyon secrecy is bad, then don’t ever go caving. The caving world is a million times worse than canyon secrets will ever be.
Gordon
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Steve Bates wrote: > I am finally going to chime in on this thread as someone who has been on > the other side of the door, wanting to play but no one would let me in.
That’s just silly. It’s like a 5.9 climber complaining that there are a bunch of secret 5.13s no one is telling him about when the guidebooks are chock full of moderates he’s never done. .
> I would like you all to think back to that first time you put your harness > on, hooked into your belay device and lowered yourselves over that first > canyon ledge and the exhilaration of it. Someone was kind enough to take > you to this magical spot to share the experience of a new adventure.
Negative, Gomer. My first canyons were beta free. We did three canyons back in the 80s by exploring on our own. Scouting entrances and exits. Carrying stupid amounts of rope to rig each drop. Going back the next day to clean the canyons. It was a freaking blast. We later did Heaps when all we knew was that it was hard and had a big exit drop. We found the Phantom Valley entrance on our own. These canyons are now on the beta highway, but I wouldn’t trade the experience for anything. With beta, they’re one-day moderates. Without, they’re week-long adventures. Who are you to demand that no adventures be left?
> To rob someone of these experiences > in my mind is just wrong.
Give me a break. How many canyons are in guidebooks? How many on the web? How many have you done? Why are none of them worthwhile experiences? Pardon me for being hard on you, but you’re coming across like a whiner.
Gordon
stevebrezovec
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Steve Bates wrote: > My background is in rock climbing > where information is shared freely.
There are plenty of secrets in the climbing world. See all that public beta for the climbing in Southern Yosemite? Didn’t think so. Reasoning is similar and I have no problem with it, even though I’m not in the “secret club” that has access to it. If I climbed enough that I “climbed out” all the other routes in the valley, I’m certain I’d meet enough people along the way that I could get the So. Yose beta if I wanted it.
> Getting to the bottom and being amazed at the beauty and awesomeness that > you were in and experiencing. < > To rob someone of these experiences > in my mind is just wrong.
There is a respect and treasuring that comes when you have to work hard to attain something. You did your own exploration and investment, so perhaps that contributed to your feelings of reverence for the experience and for the resource.
When things are just handed to us, we tend to treat them with less care. It’s just human nature. Some resources aren’t sturdy enough to bear that haphazard treatment, so those I hold off the radar.
Ice
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “JosephD/Sara” wrote: If people here think that canyon secrecy is bad, then don’t ever go caving. The caving world is a million times worse than canyon secrets will ever be.
>>INSERT BIG YAWN HERE
Steve Bates
I am finally going to chime in on this thread as someone who has been on the other side of the door, wanting to play but no one would let me in. I wanted to share a story with you all. My background is in rock climbing where information is shared freely. It is an inherently dangerous sport and so climbers share as much as possible so everyone gets off the rock safely. I am new to canyoneering. I live in San Diego and we have some amazing areas to explore out in Borrego Springs. There are a couple of areas with slot canyons as well as a very well kept secret cave. I had explored some of the slots and got wind of the cave (Thunder Canyon Cave). I did research to try and find information about the cave and where it was and couldn’t find anything. I was told on forums to contact my local Grotto. So I did and they informed me I had to become a member, attend a meeting, learn the secret hand shake….. I came across another person that had been in the cave. He advised me he didn’t give out the location to people he didn’t know. I asked if he would take me out there to go through it if he wouldn’t share the location with me. I was completely taken back by this stone walling and it just didn’t make sense to me….. It mad me angry because I felt as though I was being robbed of an experience. So I set out on a mission to find the cave on my own. I came across a site Hidden San Diego (a pay to play site) that had information about various adventuring treasures in San Diego. While I didn’t come across the definitive location of the cave someone had posted a google maps point. I was able to use it, google earth, and a few pictures I had luckily come across on the internet to narrow down its location. It took me 3 separate all day excursions but I finally found the cave entrance. I contacted the buddy I climb with and told him I had a new adventure for us. He is a teacher at a high school. About 10 years ago he started a club at the school called “Adventure Club”. Its purpose was to expose kids to things they wouldn’t normally experience and to get them outside of their comfort zones. At its inception he asked me to assist in leading the couple of trips the club did each year. We take the kids out to the preserve islands (Santa Cruz, Santa Barbara, Anacapa) for snorkeling, kayaking, swimming with seals, and hiking. We also take them out to Joshua Tree for rock climbing and hiking. These trips are great opportunities to mentor the kids, build trust relationships with them, and help them work through some physical challenges and over coming fears they face in the activities we place them in. In some it sparks a new passion and interest in experiencing adventures that when they graduate and head off to college they explore on their own. So when I finally discovered the cave entrance and set a date to go do it with my buddy he had two students he told the cave about. We have kids that keep in contact with us to see what trips we plan on our own and will ask to join in. Two girls that recently graduated from college who had gotten into rock climbing in there last couple of years at college heard about the cave outing and asked if they could come along. I knew their abilities and my buddy and I agreed their skill set was competent enough to let them join us. We were all going into the unknown with this one, but that is part of life. I did my research, had backup equipment just in case and we all headed out. Because we were all in the unknown the girls were placed in a new situation and experience. As we were trying to navigate through and figure out the route we were all providing input and opinions on the best options and choices. They were part of the leading and their opinions played into the decision making process. We got a little turned around at times while in the cave, but made it through and had an absolute ball doing it!!!!!! When we got out of the cave and were walking back to the car (2 mile hike in and out) and retelling the stories of being in the cave to one another one of the girls made a comment “That cave changed my life”. I just smiled to myself and inside said “YES – she gets it !!!!!!”. That is what it is all about This took place this past February and I have since taken another group out to the cave to experience its wonders and am planning another trip with another group here soon.
I would like you all to think back to that first time you put your harness on, hooked into your belay device and lowered yourselves over that first canyon ledge and the exhilaration of it. Someone was kind enough to take you to this magical spot to share the experience of a new adventure. Getting to the bottom and being amazed at the beauty and awesomeness that you were in and experiencing. It in turn sparked something in you that you wanted to experience again. Had I let it lie and not taken the initiative to find the cave entrance then I, my buddy, and those girls would have missed out on an incredible life experience – all because people in the know wouldn’t share the information. To rob someone of these experiences in my mind is just wrong. I think I might have posted this link before but will do it again. This is a video I put together of the cave experience. Please note the smiles through out Adventure is good for the soul!!!!!!!!
https://vimeo.com/44487425
And another short video of a friend who had never repelled, never been in a slot canyon and the sheer joy it can bring. This is the second rap of Winter Camp in Arches.
https://vimeo.com/53172187
Just a perspective of someone that was on the other side of the information fence once If you are ever in San Diego and want to go visit the cave let me know as I would love to share the experience!!!!!
Steve
On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 12:27 PM, JosephD/Sara canyoncrazy@centurylink.net>wrote:
> **
> If people here think that canyon secrecy is bad, then don’t ever go > caving. The caving world is a million times worse than canyon secrets will > ever be. > I have caves I’ve found and mapped as well and no, I don’t share those > with just anyone,as they are extremely fragile environments, some have > prehistoric artifacts, etc.. these need to be left out of the spot light, > just like some canyons, which is why Tom Jones, Ram, Todd Martin and others > choose to keep certain canyons secret, and I totally understand why. > -Joe D.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Yup I get it, “When” it is a big deal to you. Obviously our views are
different because we have issues with different things that happen to be
intertwined in this case.. How versus When. Thanks for bringing this
difference to light as it helps understand your views even when I > disagree
with them. I wouldn’t call you a hypocrite for having views that appear > to
be in conflict. Yes the things that are important to you can be in
opposition to each other and to that I say welcome to the human mind. We
ALL have stuff like that inside of us and we are not even aware of it. I > do
not share your conflicting views on this issue, but I see where you are
coming from.
I happen to focus more on human interaction and do not like the “How”
causing bad feelings between people. While you disagree with my view it > is
nice to know you understand where I am coming from.
Since my view is focused on the how and not the when, I tend to see other
possible motives for holding knowledge then choosing when and who to let > it
out to. Don’t take it personal when I toss out the leveraging of power or
drama take. There are a lot of people who love drama in life and cannot
seem to be happy unless there is a little of it and they will create it > if
needed. Someone looking from the outside at this conversation may think
even I am one of these. I don’t feel I am one of these people at all but
hey where is that mirror anyway? Holding knowledge back has been used by
people for centuries as a way to create power. An awesome everyday > version
of that is a guy at a work place who knows something no one else does. If
he just shares his knowledge with everyone he isn’t as powerful since
everyone can do what he does. Leveraging withheld information is in the
same category as using it for power. Have you ever met someone with a > boat,
wanted to get a ride then ask for a lift in exchange for showing them > some
incredible places? That is a form of leveraging. Leveraging knowledge
doesn’t have to be a bad thing. It can be good or bad, but let’s call it
what it is. So I meant nothing personal with my comments. But I fully
acknowledge that withheld information can be used in many ways.
I am not sure how people view my life. I just keep on plugging away at > what
I feel is right. Which generally is having a ton of fun with friends and
living life in a way where I don’t have to sensor my thoughts or actions
dependant of who is around me. Part of my reason for all this banter on > the
secret keeping or show don’t tell or whatever is part of that. I happen > to
play a lot with people who have different views than I do. Doing what is
right in my eyes is also getting along with others and the best way to do
that is have open dialogue and call it what it is. And by the way, from
what I can see you get out even more than I do. J You go boy!
In the aim of being clear and trying to understand you and others, I feel
the need to ask my question a third time, but be more direct. I am not > sure
if the meaning of my question came through clear the last couple times I
tried to ask. So let’s try again. From what you posted in your bullet
pointed post I could assume you meant something specific. But you know > what
we say about assuming right?
I am glad you are ok with canyons being published (and yes I know beta > can
have implications). But that was not the point of my question.
I agree that how canyons are treated can be upsetting but that also was > not
what I was getting at.
And actually you do have some effect the publishing of canyons by > working at
the show don’t tell ethic.
Until someone stumbles on it or breaks an agreement you keep publishing
slowed.
I don’t agree with it but I understand it.
You said you are not upset with canyons being found. That is only part of
what I was trying to ask.
To be specific I would like to know..
Would you be upset if a canyon were found as a result of pictures you > posted
and that canyon was then published?
Your bullet pointed post said you put up pictures to encourage > exploration
and that if someone found a canyon you hold close to your breast, it is
theirs to do with as they please.
This can be taken to mean that you encourage a canyon to be found via > your
pictures and that it is fair game if it is found that way and there > would be
no hard feelings.
I wanted to clarify this and see if I got the intended meaning or if you
meant they could do what they want but you would still be upset?
Finding a canyon via pictures has been done by various people in the past
(myself included). So it is safe to say that someone could find a canyon
using your pictures. The real question is, would it upset you if that
happened and the canyon got published? Or would you be happy about it
since that is part of why you post the images?
I only seek full understanding of your views and this one is kind of a > big
one for me as I happen to worry more about the “How” than the “When”.
Yes we have had several sideband conversations I enjoy. Planning a trip
together is only one of those. I wish reiterate, I consider us friends > but
wish true understanding of views and if being blunt is what is required > to
do that, then so be it.
Have fun out there on your journey. I wish I had the time to get out as
much as you do. But I might explode if I were actually able to do that.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On > Behalf Of
RAM
Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 4:21 PM
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , > “Luke”
wrote:
> Using methods like “show don’t tell” do slow things down.
> benefit of the doubt and say the show don’t tell experience can slow
things> being known by 15 years. Thinking of it this way the show don’t > tell
stuff> will trickle into public awareness within our lifetime. So you > have
slowed> it down by say one generation. Not really a big deal in the grand
scheme,> unless you enjoy the drama or plan to leverage the knowledge in
some way.
While it might not be a big deal to you, it is a very big deal to me. > Aaron
Ramras too. 15 years for a larger group of people to probe out and have > the
exploration experience actually sounds quite nice. I think that is about > how
long it will last. There are more canyons out there not found than people
believe. As for the “enjoying drama” and “leverage of knowledge” > comment, I
was initially quite put off by this comment. Projecting motivations onto
others is a difficult, if not impossible task to get right. It is hard to
escape the mirror. For me anyway. We can only be in our own skin, but > then I
realized that I have used the leverage of knowledge to further my agenda
once. I shall confess
Before the publishing of the 2nd edition of the Kelsey tech book, Mike
approached me, requesting that I give him all of the canyons i knew about
that he didn’t, so he could publish them. I saw an opportunity and > opened a
negotiation with him, offering him canyon beta in exchange for him
disavowing the use of the G-Pick and bolting, especially in areas where > it
is illegal. I probably would have gone through with it, but of course, > Mike
could not. It had to be very hard on him not to go for it
I would like to share the wording of Mike’s offer, before moving on. > Mike to
me. “If you give me all these unknown canyons, I will give you all of the
one’s I am about to publish, so you can do them before they are ruined.”
While Mike’s use of language matches my own for…..ahhhh…. creative
license, I think it’s fair to say that he thinks beta-ing canyons has
impacts
> I find it unfortunate that a better way to
> accomplish this has not been found. People feeling left out or teased > or
> taunted or whatever label you want to put on it, is not how I like to > see
> people interact.
I am sorry that people feel that way. When they handed out common sense, > i
missed some of that. I also missed the envy and coveting line too. I > look at
your life. Its a wonderful one. You are doing tons of adventures, with > great
people and you are out a lot when i am home working. You have a fabulous
sense of fun too. i wish i could spend more time with you. It would never
occur to me to feels pangs of jealousy. But i wonder if others do? They > see
you blog and look at your life….I wonder. The point is, you can’t > control
how other people feel about you. For one thing it is not yours to own. It
belongs to others. You just have to be true to yourself and let it rip. > Not
to say that your opinion did not get taken into full consideration. Three
albums were not published from this last trip, off of your’s and another > s
sensibilities. Is anyone a loser or winner, here? Who and how? Opinions
anyone?
With all that said I am still curious about the question I asked > earlier
in
> this post.
> You wrote
* I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever
> * i expect every canyon to be found.
> *I post pictures that help that along
> * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want
> *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group > and I
> feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that
> *many are offended by pictures without names and beta
> * i post pictures of everywhere i go
> *most places i go have no beta
> * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do > with
> what you will. I may compare names and history….
Am I interpreting your intentions properly?
Are you saying you post your pictures to help the canyon discovery > process
> along and you want people to figure out where they are?
what was lost in the partial list of my bullet points is that I am > trying to
encourage exploration while there is still time. having canyons > discovered
along the way is just part of the price. I have admitted that these > goals,
slowing publishing and encouraging exploration are at opposition to each
other. There are many unflattering names you can call me if you wish,
hypocrite at the fore perhaps
> Are you saying that if someone were to do that then the canyon is > theirs
to
> do what they want with no hard feelings, since that is what you
encouraged> anyway?
Even without my encouragement too. I don’t feel loss or pain when new
canyons get put out there. When kelsey published his 2nd edition, there > were
24 canyons i had done, that did not have beta, that he published. I > admit I
reviewed the table of contents with great energy to see what he found and
what he missed, but hard feelings? Nah. I was concerned about the amount > of
X canyons divulged and said so to anyone who would listen. Since then i > have
modified my position on this. There has been no rush into trouble on a > broad
level, with the possible exception of Egypt 4
> Sure someone can do what they want with publicly posted info.
> But my question to you is, do you really encourage that so the canyons > get
> found or would you in all honesty be upset if that info were handled > in a
> way you don’t agree with?
Upset about canyons being found? NO
Upset about how ANY canyon gets treated..bolts, graffiti etc. yes. > Published
or unpublished. I do not believe I have control with that. I don’t > believe
publishing beta mitigates these negative things from happening. Just my
opinion from the time observing.
We will have to have good times in places where our views do not
> clash.
And i will let everyone know we have been chatting sideband, like the
friends that we are, scheduling just such a trip. I am off to the desert
tomorrow
Ram
>
rging@q.com
Well then you must know the best way to keep that secret is to get on a forum and start talking about it.
—– Original Message —– From: JosephD/Sara canyoncrazy@centurylink.net> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Thu, 08 Nov 2012 15:27:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
If people here think that canyon secrecy is bad, then don’t ever go caving. The caving world is a million times worse than canyon secrets will ever be.
I have caves I’ve found and mapped as well and no, I don’t share those with just anyone,as they are extremely fragile environments, some have prehistoric artifacts, etc.. these need to be left out of the spot light, just like some canyons, which is why Tom Jones, Ram, Todd Martin and others choose to keep certain canyons secret, and I totally understand why.
-Joe D.
rickinlo
Also, its probably easier to keep caves a secret. They are far less obvious on topo maps.
Luke Galyan
Yup caves have things much more fragile than most canyons. Some canyons are left off the radar due to fragile stuff. But those are not what I have issue with. There are many other reasons canyons are left off the radar. Not just the occasional frigile artifact.
So I hear ya on what you’re saying but that is not the aspect that bothers me. I have agreed to leave one off the radar for fragile reasons which is different from but a little related to the meat of this thread. Luke
Sent from my phone
JosephD/Sara canyoncrazy@centurylink.net> wrote:
>If people here think that canyon secrecy is bad, then don’t ever go caving. The caving world is a million times worse than canyon secrets will ever be. >I have caves I’ve found and mapped as well and no, I don’t share those with just anyone,as they are extremely fragile environments, some have prehistoric artifacts, etc.. these need to be left out of the spot light, just like some canyons, which is why Tom Jones, Ram, Todd Martin and others choose to keep certain canyons secret, and I totally understand why. >-Joe D.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote: >
> Yup I get it, “When” it is a big deal to you. Obviously our views are >> different because we have issues with different things that happen to be >> intertwined in this case.. How versus When. Thanks for bringing this >> difference to light as it helps understand your views even when I disagree >> with them. I wouldn’t call you a hypocrite for having views that appear to >> be in conflict. Yes the things that are important to you can be in >> opposition to each other and to that I say welcome to the human mind. We >> ALL have stuff like that inside of us and we are not even aware of it. I do >> not share your conflicting views on this issue, but I see where you are >> coming from. >
> I happen to focus more on human interaction and do not like the “How” >> causing bad feelings between people. While you disagree with my view it is >> nice to know you understand where I am coming from. >
> Since my view is focused on the how and not the when, I tend to see other >> possible motives for holding knowledge then choosing when and who to let it >> out to. Don’t take it personal when I toss out the leveraging of power or >> drama take. There are a lot of people who love drama in life and cannot >> seem to be happy unless there is a little of it and they will create it if >> needed. Someone looking from the outside at this conversation may think >> even I am one of these. I don’t feel I am one of these people at all but >> hey where is that mirror anyway? Holding knowledge back has been used by >> people for centuries as a way to create power. An awesome everyday version >> of that is a guy at a work place who knows something no one else does. If >> he just shares his knowledge with everyone he isn’t as powerful since >> everyone can do what he does. Leveraging withheld information is in the >> same category as using it for power. Have you ever met someone with a boat, >> wanted to get a ride then ask for a lift in exchange for showing them some >> incredible places? That is a form of leveraging. Leveraging knowledge >> doesn’t have to be a bad thing. It can be good or bad, but let’s call it >> what it is. So I meant nothing personal with my comments. But I fully >> acknowledge that withheld information can be used in many ways. >
> I am not sure how people view my life. I just keep on plugging away at what >> I feel is right. Which generally is having a ton of fun with friends and >> living life in a way where I don’t have to sensor my thoughts or actions >> dependant of who is around me. Part of my reason for all this banter on the >> secret keeping or show don’t tell or whatever is part of that. I happen to >> play a lot with people who have different views than I do. Doing what is >> right in my eyes is also getting along with others and the best way to do >> that is have open dialogue and call it what it is. And by the way, from >> what I can see you get out even more than I do. J You go boy! >
> In the aim of being clear and trying to understand you and others, I feel >> the need to ask my question a third time, but be more direct. I am not sure >> if the meaning of my question came through clear the last couple times I >> tried to ask. So let’s try again. From what you posted in your bullet >> pointed post I could assume you meant something specific. But you know what >> we say about assuming right? >
> I am glad you are ok with canyons being published (and yes I know beta can >> have implications). But that was not the point of my question. >
> I agree that how canyons are treated can be upsetting but that also was not >> what I was getting at. >
> And actually you do have some effect the publishing of canyons by working at >> the show don’t tell ethic. >
> Until someone stumbles on it or breaks an agreement you keep publishing >> slowed. >
> I don’t agree with it but I understand it. >
> You said you are not upset with canyons being found. That is only part of >> what I was trying to ask. >
> To be specific I would like to know.. >
> Would you be upset if a canyon were found as a result of pictures you posted >> and that canyon was then published? >
> Your bullet pointed post said you put up pictures to encourage exploration >> and that if someone found a canyon you hold close to your breast, it is >> theirs to do with as they please. >
> This can be taken to mean that you encourage a canyon to be found via your >> pictures and that it is fair game if it is found that way and there would be >> no hard feelings. >
> I wanted to clarify this and see if I got the intended meaning or if you >> meant they could do what they want but you would still be upset? >
> Finding a canyon via pictures has been done by various people in the past >> (myself included). So it is safe to say that someone could find a canyon >> using your pictures. The real question is, would it upset you if that >> happened and the canyon got published? Or would you be happy about it >> since that is part of why you post the images? >
> I only seek full understanding of your views and this one is kind of a big >> one for me as I happen to worry more about the “How” than the “When”. >
> Yes we have had several sideband conversations I enjoy. Planning a trip >> together is only one of those. I wish reiterate, I consider us friends but >> wish true understanding of views and if being blunt is what is required to >> do that, then so be it. >
> Have fun out there on your journey. I wish I had the time to get out as >> much as you do. But I might explode if I were actually able to do that. >
> Luke >
> From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of >> RAM >> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 4:21 PM >> To: Yahoo Canyons Group
> Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons >
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” >> wrote: >
Using methods like “show don’t tell” do slow things down. >
benefit of the doubt and say the show don’t tell experience can slow >> things> being known by 15 years. Thinking of it this way the show don’t tell >> stuff> will trickle into public awareness within our lifetime. So you have >> slowed> it down by say one generation. Not really a big deal in the grand >> scheme,> unless you enjoy the drama or plan to leverage the knowledge in >> some way. >
> While it might not be a big deal to you, it is a very big deal to me. Aaron >> Ramras too. 15 years for a larger group of people to probe out and have the >> exploration experience actually sounds quite nice. I think that is about how >> long it will last. There are more canyons out there not found than people >> believe. As for the “enjoying drama” and “leverage of knowledge” comment, I >> was initially quite put off by this comment. Projecting motivations onto >> others is a difficult, if not impossible task to get right. It is hard to >> escape the mirror. For me anyway. We can only be in our own skin, but then I >> realized that I have used the leverage of knowledge to further my agenda >> once. I shall confess >
> Before the publishing of the 2nd edition of the Kelsey tech book, Mike >> approached me, requesting that I give him all of the canyons i knew about >> that he didn’t, so he could publish them. I saw an opportunity and opened a >> negotiation with him, offering him canyon beta in exchange for him >> disavowing the use of the G-Pick and bolting, especially in areas where it >> is illegal. I probably would have gone through with it, but of course, Mike >> could not. It had to be very hard on him not to go for it >
> I would like to share the wording of Mike’s offer, before moving on. Mike to >> me. “If you give me all these unknown canyons, I will give you all of the >> one’s I am about to publish, so you can do them before they are ruined.” >> While Mike’s use of language matches my own for…..ahhhh…. creative >> license, I think it’s fair to say that he thinks beta-ing canyons has >> impacts >
I find it unfortunate that a better way to >
accomplish this has not been found. People feeling left out or teased or >
taunted or whatever label you want to put on it, is not how I like to see
> people interact. >
> I am sorry that people feel that way. When they handed out common sense, i >> missed some of that. I also missed the envy and coveting line too. I look at >> your life. Its a wonderful one. You are doing tons of adventures, with great >> people and you are out a lot when i am home working. You have a fabulous >> sense of fun too. i wish i could spend more time with you. It would never >> occur to me to feels pangs of jealousy. But i wonder if others do? They see >> you blog and look at your life….I wonder. The point is, you can’t control >> how other people feel about you. For one thing it is not yours to own. It >> belongs to others. You just have to be true to yourself and let it rip. Not >> to say that your opinion did not get taken into full consideration. Three >> albums were not published from this last trip, off of your’s and another s >> sensibilities. Is anyone a loser or winner, here? Who and how? Opinions >> anyone? >
>
With all that said I am still curious about the question I asked earlier >> in >
this post. >
You wrote >
>
* I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever >
* i expect every canyon to be found. >
*I post pictures that help that along >
* I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want >
*The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and I >
feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that >
*many are offended by pictures without names and beta >
* i post pictures of everywhere i go >
*most places i go have no beta >
* if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with >
what you will. I may compare names and history…. >
>
Am I interpreting your intentions properly? >
>
Are you saying you post your pictures to help the canyon discovery process >
along and you want people to figure out where they are? >
> what was lost in the partial list of my bullet points is that I am trying to >> encourage exploration while there is still time. having canyons discovered >> along the way is just part of the price. I have admitted that these goals, >> slowing publishing and encouraging exploration are at opposition to each >> other. There are many unflattering names you can call me if you wish, >> hypocrite at the fore perhaps >
Are you saying that if someone were to do that then the canyon is theirs >> to >
do what they want with no hard feelings, since that is what you >> encouraged> anyway? >
> Even without my encouragement too. I don’t feel loss or pain when new >> canyons get put out there. When kelsey published his 2nd edition, there were >> 24 canyons i had done, that did not have beta, that he published. I admit I >> reviewed the table of contents with great energy to see what he found and >> what he missed, but hard feelings? Nah. I was concerned about the amount of >> X canyons divulged and said so to anyone who would listen. Since then i have >> modified my position on this. There has been no rush into trouble on a broad >> level, with the possible exception of Egypt 4 >
Sure someone can do what they want with publicly posted info. >
But my question to you is, do you really encourage that so the canyons get >
found or would you in all honesty be upset if that info were handled in a >
way you don’t agree with? >
> Upset about canyons being found? NO >> Upset about how ANY canyon gets treated..bolts, graffiti etc. yes. Published >> or unpublished. I do not believe I have control with that. I don’t believe >> publishing beta mitigates these negative things from happening. Just my >> opinion from the time observing. >
> We will have to have good times in places where our views do not >
clash. >
> And i will let everyone know we have been chatting sideband, like the >> friends that we are, scheduling just such a trip. I am off to the desert >> tomorrow >> Ram >
> >
>
JosephD/Sara
If people here think that canyon secrecy is bad, then don’t ever go caving. The caving world is a million times worse than canyon secrets will ever be. I have caves I’ve found and mapped as well and no, I don’t share those with just anyone,as they are extremely fragile environments, some have prehistoric artifacts, etc.. these need to be left out of the spot light, just like some canyons, which is why Tom Jones, Ram, Todd Martin and others choose to keep certain canyons secret, and I totally understand why. -Joe D.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Yup I get it, “When” it is a big deal to you. Obviously our views are > different because we have issues with different things that happen to be > intertwined in this case.. How versus When. Thanks for bringing this > difference to light as it helps understand your views even when I disagree > with them. I wouldn’t call you a hypocrite for having views that appear to > be in conflict. Yes the things that are important to you can be in > opposition to each other and to that I say welcome to the human mind. We > ALL have stuff like that inside of us and we are not even aware of it. I do > not share your conflicting views on this issue, but I see where you are > coming from.
I happen to focus more on human interaction and do not like the “How” > causing bad feelings between people. While you disagree with my view it is > nice to know you understand where I am coming from.
Since my view is focused on the how and not the when, I tend to see other > possible motives for holding knowledge then choosing when and who to let it > out to. Don’t take it personal when I toss out the leveraging of power or > drama take. There are a lot of people who love drama in life and cannot > seem to be happy unless there is a little of it and they will create it if > needed. Someone looking from the outside at this conversation may think > even I am one of these. I don’t feel I am one of these people at all but > hey where is that mirror anyway? Holding knowledge back has been used by > people for centuries as a way to create power. An awesome everyday version > of that is a guy at a work place who knows something no one else does. If > he just shares his knowledge with everyone he isn’t as powerful since > everyone can do what he does. Leveraging withheld information is in the > same category as using it for power. Have you ever met someone with a boat, > wanted to get a ride then ask for a lift in exchange for showing them some > incredible places? That is a form of leveraging. Leveraging knowledge > doesn’t have to be a bad thing. It can be good or bad, but let’s call it > what it is. So I meant nothing personal with my comments. But I fully > acknowledge that withheld information can be used in many ways.
I am not sure how people view my life. I just keep on plugging away at what > I feel is right. Which generally is having a ton of fun with friends and > living life in a way where I don’t have to sensor my thoughts or actions > dependant of who is around me. Part of my reason for all this banter on the > secret keeping or show don’t tell or whatever is part of that. I happen to > play a lot with people who have different views than I do. Doing what is > right in my eyes is also getting along with others and the best way to do > that is have open dialogue and call it what it is. And by the way, from > what I can see you get out even more than I do. J You go boy!
In the aim of being clear and trying to understand you and others, I feel > the need to ask my question a third time, but be more direct. I am not sure > if the meaning of my question came through clear the last couple times I > tried to ask. So let’s try again. From what you posted in your bullet > pointed post I could assume you meant something specific. But you know what > we say about assuming right?
I am glad you are ok with canyons being published (and yes I know beta can > have implications). But that was not the point of my question.
I agree that how canyons are treated can be upsetting but that also was not > what I was getting at.
And actually you do have some effect the publishing of canyons by working at > the show don’t tell ethic.
Until someone stumbles on it or breaks an agreement you keep publishing > slowed.
I don’t agree with it but I understand it.
You said you are not upset with canyons being found. That is only part of > what I was trying to ask.
To be specific I would like to know..
Would you be upset if a canyon were found as a result of pictures you posted > and that canyon was then published?
Your bullet pointed post said you put up pictures to encourage exploration > and that if someone found a canyon you hold close to your breast, it is > theirs to do with as they please.
This can be taken to mean that you encourage a canyon to be found via your > pictures and that it is fair game if it is found that way and there would be > no hard feelings.
I wanted to clarify this and see if I got the intended meaning or if you > meant they could do what they want but you would still be upset?
Finding a canyon via pictures has been done by various people in the past > (myself included). So it is safe to say that someone could find a canyon > using your pictures. The real question is, would it upset you if that > happened and the canyon got published? Or would you be happy about it > since that is part of why you post the images?
I only seek full understanding of your views and this one is kind of a big > one for me as I happen to worry more about the “How” than the “When”.
Yes we have had several sideband conversations I enjoy. Planning a trip > together is only one of those. I wish reiterate, I consider us friends but > wish true understanding of views and if being blunt is what is required to > do that, then so be it.
Have fun out there on your journey. I wish I had the time to get out as > much as you do. But I might explode if I were actually able to do that.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of > RAM > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 4:21 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” > wrote:
> Using methods like “show don’t tell” do slow things down.
benefit of the doubt and say the show don’t tell experience can slow > things> being known by 15 years. Thinking of it this way the show don’t tell > stuff> will trickle into public awareness within our lifetime. So you have > slowed> it down by say one generation. Not really a big deal in the grand > scheme,> unless you enjoy the drama or plan to leverage the knowledge in > some way.
While it might not be a big deal to you, it is a very big deal to me. Aaron > Ramras too. 15 years for a larger group of people to probe out and have the > exploration experience actually sounds quite nice. I think that is about how > long it will last. There are more canyons out there not found than people > believe. As for the “enjoying drama” and “leverage of knowledge” comment, I > was initially quite put off by this comment. Projecting motivations onto > others is a difficult, if not impossible task to get right. It is hard to > escape the mirror. For me anyway. We can only be in our own skin, but then I > realized that I have used the leverage of knowledge to further my agenda > once. I shall confess
Before the publishing of the 2nd edition of the Kelsey tech book, Mike > approached me, requesting that I give him all of the canyons i knew about > that he didn’t, so he could publish them. I saw an opportunity and opened a > negotiation with him, offering him canyon beta in exchange for him > disavowing the use of the G-Pick and bolting, especially in areas where it > is illegal. I probably would have gone through with it, but of course, Mike > could not. It had to be very hard on him not to go for it
I would like to share the wording of Mike’s offer, before moving on. Mike to > me. “If you give me all these unknown canyons, I will give you all of the > one’s I am about to publish, so you can do them before they are ruined.” > While Mike’s use of language matches my own for…..ahhhh…. creative > license, I think it’s fair to say that he thinks beta-ing canyons has > impacts
> I find it unfortunate that a better way to
accomplish this has not been found. People feeling left out or teased or
taunted or whatever label you want to put on it, is not how I like to see
people interact.
I am sorry that people feel that way. When they handed out common sense, i > missed some of that. I also missed the envy and coveting line too. I look at > your life. Its a wonderful one. You are doing tons of adventures, with great > people and you are out a lot when i am home working. You have a fabulous > sense of fun too. i wish i could spend more time with you. It would never > occur to me to feels pangs of jealousy. But i wonder if others do? They see > you blog and look at your life….I wonder. The point is, you can’t control > how other people feel about you. For one thing it is not yours to own. It > belongs to others. You just have to be true to yourself and let it rip. Not > to say that your opinion did not get taken into full consideration. Three > albums were not published from this last trip, off of your’s and another s > sensibilities. Is anyone a loser or winner, here? Who and how? Opinions > anyone?
> With all that said I am still curious about the question I asked earlier > in
this post.
You wrote
* I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever
* i expect every canyon to be found.
*I post pictures that help that along
* I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want
*The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and I
feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that
*many are offended by pictures without names and beta
* i post pictures of everywhere i go
*most places i go have no beta
* if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with
what you will. I may compare names and history….
> Am I interpreting your intentions properly?
Are you saying you post your pictures to help the canyon discovery process
along and you want people to figure out where they are?
what was lost in the partial list of my bullet points is that I am trying to > encourage exploration while there is still time. having canyons discovered > along the way is just part of the price. I have admitted that these goals, > slowing publishing and encouraging exploration are at opposition to each > other. There are many unflattering names you can call me if you wish, > hypocrite at the fore perhaps
> Are you saying that if someone were to do that then the canyon is theirs > to
do what they want with no hard feelings, since that is what you > encouraged> anyway?
Even without my encouragement too. I don’t feel loss or pain when new > canyons get put out there. When kelsey published his 2nd edition, there were > 24 canyons i had done, that did not have beta, that he published. I admit I > reviewed the table of contents with great energy to see what he found and > what he missed, but hard feelings? Nah. I was concerned about the amount of > X canyons divulged and said so to anyone who would listen. Since then i have > modified my position on this. There has been no rush into trouble on a broad > level, with the possible exception of Egypt 4
> Sure someone can do what they want with publicly posted info.
But my question to you is, do you really encourage that so the canyons get
found or would you in all honesty be upset if that info were handled in a
way you don’t agree with?
Upset about canyons being found? NO > Upset about how ANY canyon gets treated..bolts, graffiti etc. yes. Published > or unpublished. I do not believe I have control with that. I don’t believe > publishing beta mitigates these negative things from happening. Just my > opinion from the time observing.
We will have to have good times in places where our views do not
clash.
And i will let everyone know we have been chatting sideband, like the > friends that we are, scheduling just such a trip. I am off to the desert > tomorrow > Ram
>
titanstairs
It is always amazing to come across such differing views that are both correct but still have a mutual respect. This has to be admired because if only people and politicians could realize this think how much better the world could be if we could all work together even with some semmingly polar differences
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Luke” wrote:
Yup I get it, “When” it is a big deal to you. Obviously our views are > different because we have issues with different things that happen to be > intertwined in this case.. How versus When. Thanks for bringing this > difference to light as it helps understand your views even when I disagree > with them. I wouldn’t call you a hypocrite for having views that appear to > be in conflict. Yes the things that are important to you can be in > opposition to each other and to that I say welcome to the human mind. We > ALL have stuff like that inside of us and we are not even aware of it. I do > not share your conflicting views on this issue, but I see where you are > coming from.
I happen to focus more on human interaction and do not like the “How” > causing bad feelings between people. While you disagree with my view it is > nice to know you understand where I am coming from.
Since my view is focused on the how and not the when, I tend to see other > possible motives for holding knowledge then choosing when and who to let it > out to. Don’t take it personal when I toss out the leveraging of power or > drama take. There are a lot of people who love drama in life and cannot > seem to be happy unless there is a little of it and they will create it if > needed. Someone looking from the outside at this conversation may think > even I am one of these. I don’t feel I am one of these people at all but > hey where is that mirror anyway? Holding knowledge back has been used by > people for centuries as a way to create power. An awesome everyday version > of that is a guy at a work place who knows something no one else does. If > he just shares his knowledge with everyone he isn’t as powerful since > everyone can do what he does. Leveraging withheld information is in the > same category as using it for power. Have you ever met someone with a boat, > wanted to get a ride then ask for a lift in exchange for showing them some > incredible places? That is a form of leveraging. Leveraging knowledge > doesn’t have to be a bad thing. It can be good or bad, but let’s call it > what it is. So I meant nothing personal with my comments. But I fully > acknowledge that withheld information can be used in many ways.
I am not sure how people view my life. I just keep on plugging away at what > I feel is right. Which generally is having a ton of fun with friends and > living life in a way where I don’t have to sensor my thoughts or actions > dependant of who is around me. Part of my reason for all this banter on the > secret keeping or show don’t tell or whatever is part of that. I happen to > play a lot with people who have different views than I do. Doing what is > right in my eyes is also getting along with others and the best way to do > that is have open dialogue and call it what it is. And by the way, from > what I can see you get out even more than I do. J You go boy!
In the aim of being clear and trying to understand you and others, I feel > the need to ask my question a third time, but be more direct. I am not sure > if the meaning of my question came through clear the last couple times I > tried to ask. So let’s try again. From what you posted in your bullet > pointed post I could assume you meant something specific. But you know what > we say about assuming right?
I am glad you are ok with canyons being published (and yes I know beta can > have implications). But that was not the point of my question.
I agree that how canyons are treated can be upsetting but that also was not > what I was getting at.
And actually you do have some effect the publishing of canyons by working at > the show don’t tell ethic.
Until someone stumbles on it or breaks an agreement you keep publishing > slowed.
I don’t agree with it but I understand it.
You said you are not upset with canyons being found. That is only part of > what I was trying to ask.
To be specific I would like to know..
Would you be upset if a canyon were found as a result of pictures you posted > and that canyon was then published?
Your bullet pointed post said you put up pictures to encourage exploration > and that if someone found a canyon you hold close to your breast, it is > theirs to do with as they please.
This can be taken to mean that you encourage a canyon to be found via your > pictures and that it is fair game if it is found that way and there would be > no hard feelings.
I wanted to clarify this and see if I got the intended meaning or if you > meant they could do what they want but you would still be upset?
Finding a canyon via pictures has been done by various people in the past > (myself included). So it is safe to say that someone could find a canyon > using your pictures. The real question is, would it upset you if that > happened and the canyon got published? Or would you be happy about it > since that is part of why you post the images?
I only seek full understanding of your views and this one is kind of a big > one for me as I happen to worry more about the “How” than the “When”.
Yes we have had several sideband conversations I enjoy. Planning a trip > together is only one of those. I wish reiterate, I consider us friends but > wish true understanding of views and if being blunt is what is required to > do that, then so be it.
Have fun out there on your journey. I wish I had the time to get out as > much as you do. But I might explode if I were actually able to do that.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of > RAM > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 4:21 PM > To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” > wrote:
> Using methods like “show don’t tell” do slow things down.
benefit of the doubt and say the show don’t tell experience can slow > things> being known by 15 years. Thinking of it this way the show don’t tell > stuff> will trickle into public awareness within our lifetime. So you have > slowed> it down by say one generation. Not really a big deal in the grand > scheme,> unless you enjoy the drama or plan to leverage the knowledge in > some way.
While it might not be a big deal to you, it is a very big deal to me. Aaron > Ramras too. 15 years for a larger group of people to probe out and have the > exploration experience actually sounds quite nice. I think that is about how > long it will last. There are more canyons out there not found than people > believe. As for the “enjoying drama” and “leverage of knowledge” comment, I > was initially quite put off by this comment. Projecting motivations onto > others is a difficult, if not impossible task to get right. It is hard to > escape the mirror. For me anyway. We can only be in our own skin, but then I > realized that I have used the leverage of knowledge to further my agenda > once. I shall confess
Before the publishing of the 2nd edition of the Kelsey tech book, Mike > approached me, requesting that I give him all of the canyons i knew about > that he didn’t, so he could publish them. I saw an opportunity and opened a > negotiation with him, offering him canyon beta in exchange for him > disavowing the use of the G-Pick and bolting, especially in areas where it > is illegal. I probably would have gone through with it, but of course, Mike > could not. It had to be very hard on him not to go for it
I would like to share the wording of Mike’s offer, before moving on. Mike to > me. “If you give me all these unknown canyons, I will give you all of the > one’s I am about to publish, so you can do them before they are ruined.” > While Mike’s use of language matches my own for…..ahhhh…. creative > license, I think it’s fair to say that he thinks beta-ing canyons has > impacts
> I find it unfortunate that a better way to
accomplish this has not been found. People feeling left out or teased or
taunted or whatever label you want to put on it, is not how I like to see
people interact.
I am sorry that people feel that way. When they handed out common sense, i > missed some of that. I also missed the envy and coveting line too. I look at > your life. Its a wonderful one. You are doing tons of adventures, with great > people and you are out a lot when i am home working. You have a fabulous > sense of fun too. i wish i could spend more time with you. It would never > occur to me to feels pangs of jealousy. But i wonder if others do? They see > you blog and look at your life….I wonder. The point is, you can’t control > how other people feel about you. For one thing it is not yours to own. It > belongs to others. You just have to be true to yourself and let it rip. Not > to say that your opinion did not get taken into full consideration. Three > albums were not published from this last trip, off of your’s and another s > sensibilities. Is anyone a loser or winner, here? Who and how? Opinions > anyone?
> With all that said I am still curious about the question I asked earlier > in
this post.
You wrote
* I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever
* i expect every canyon to be found.
*I post pictures that help that along
* I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want
*The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and I
feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that
*many are offended by pictures without names and beta
* i post pictures of everywhere i go
*most places i go have no beta
* if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with
what you will. I may compare names and history….
> Am I interpreting your intentions properly?
Are you saying you post your pictures to help the canyon discovery process
along and you want people to figure out where they are?
what was lost in the partial list of my bullet points is that I am trying to > encourage exploration while there is still time. having canyons discovered > along the way is just part of the price. I have admitted that these goals, > slowing publishing and encouraging exploration are at opposition to each > other. There are many unflattering names you can call me if you wish, > hypocrite at the fore perhaps
> Are you saying that if someone were to do that then the canyon is theirs > to
do what they want with no hard feelings, since that is what you > encouraged> anyway?
Even without my encouragement too. I don’t feel loss or pain when new > canyons get put out there. When kelsey published his 2nd edition, there were > 24 canyons i had done, that did not have beta, that he published. I admit I > reviewed the table of contents with great energy to see what he found and > what he missed, but hard feelings? Nah. I was concerned about the amount of > X canyons divulged and said so to anyone who would listen. Since then i have > modified my position on this. There has been no rush into trouble on a broad > level, with the possible exception of Egypt 4
> Sure someone can do what they want with publicly posted info.
But my question to you is, do you really encourage that so the canyons get
found or would you in all honesty be upset if that info were handled in a
way you don’t agree with?
Upset about canyons being found? NO > Upset about how ANY canyon gets treated..bolts, graffiti etc. yes. Published > or unpublished. I do not believe I have control with that. I don’t believe > publishing beta mitigates these negative things from happening. Just my > opinion from the time observing.
We will have to have good times in places where our views do not
clash.
And i will let everyone know we have been chatting sideband, like the > friends that we are, scheduling just such a trip. I am off to the desert > tomorrow > Ram
>
Luke
Yup I get it, “When” it is a big deal to you. Obviously our views are different because we have issues with different things that happen to be intertwined in this case.. How versus When. Thanks for bringing this difference to light as it helps understand your views even when I disagree with them. I wouldn’t call you a hypocrite for having views that appear to be in conflict. Yes the things that are important to you can be in opposition to each other and to that I say welcome to the human mind. We ALL have stuff like that inside of us and we are not even aware of it. I do not share your conflicting views on this issue, but I see where you are coming from.
I happen to focus more on human interaction and do not like the “How” causing bad feelings between people. While you disagree with my view it is nice to know you understand where I am coming from.
Since my view is focused on the how and not the when, I tend to see other possible motives for holding knowledge then choosing when and who to let it out to. Don’t take it personal when I toss out the leveraging of power or drama take. There are a lot of people who love drama in life and cannot seem to be happy unless there is a little of it and they will create it if needed. Someone looking from the outside at this conversation may think even I am one of these. I don’t feel I am one of these people at all but hey where is that mirror anyway? Holding knowledge back has been used by people for centuries as a way to create power. An awesome everyday version of that is a guy at a work place who knows something no one else does. If he just shares his knowledge with everyone he isn’t as powerful since everyone can do what he does. Leveraging withheld information is in the same category as using it for power. Have you ever met someone with a boat, wanted to get a ride then ask for a lift in exchange for showing them some incredible places? That is a form of leveraging. Leveraging knowledge doesn’t have to be a bad thing. It can be good or bad, but let’s call it what it is. So I meant nothing personal with my comments. But I fully acknowledge that withheld information can be used in many ways.
I am not sure how people view my life. I just keep on plugging away at what I feel is right. Which generally is having a ton of fun with friends and living life in a way where I don’t have to sensor my thoughts or actions dependant of who is around me. Part of my reason for all this banter on the secret keeping or show don’t tell or whatever is part of that. I happen to play a lot with people who have different views than I do. Doing what is right in my eyes is also getting along with others and the best way to do that is have open dialogue and call it what it is. And by the way, from what I can see you get out even more than I do. J You go boy!
In the aim of being clear and trying to understand you and others, I feel the need to ask my question a third time, but be more direct. I am not sure if the meaning of my question came through clear the last couple times I tried to ask. So let’s try again. From what you posted in your bullet pointed post I could assume you meant something specific. But you know what we say about assuming right?
I am glad you are ok with canyons being published (and yes I know beta can have implications). But that was not the point of my question.
I agree that how canyons are treated can be upsetting but that also was not what I was getting at.
And actually you do have some effect the publishing of canyons by working at the show don’t tell ethic.
Until someone stumbles on it or breaks an agreement you keep publishing slowed.
I don’t agree with it but I understand it.
You said you are not upset with canyons being found. That is only part of what I was trying to ask.
To be specific I would like to know..
Would you be upset if a canyon were found as a result of pictures you posted and that canyon was then published?
Your bullet pointed post said you put up pictures to encourage exploration and that if someone found a canyon you hold close to your breast, it is theirs to do with as they please.
This can be taken to mean that you encourage a canyon to be found via your pictures and that it is fair game if it is found that way and there would be no hard feelings.
I wanted to clarify this and see if I got the intended meaning or if you meant they could do what they want but you would still be upset?
Finding a canyon via pictures has been done by various people in the past (myself included). So it is safe to say that someone could find a canyon using your pictures. The real question is, would it upset you if that happened and the canyon got published? Or would you be happy about it since that is part of why you post the images?
I only seek full understanding of your views and this one is kind of a big one for me as I happen to worry more about the “How” than the “When”.
Yes we have had several sideband conversations I enjoy. Planning a trip together is only one of those. I wish reiterate, I consider us friends but wish true understanding of views and if being blunt is what is required to do that, then so be it.
Have fun out there on your journey. I wish I had the time to get out as much as you do. But I might explode if I were actually able to do that.
Luke
From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of RAM Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2012 4:21 PM To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: undisclosed canyons
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Luke” wrote:
> Using methods like “show don’t tell” do slow things down. > benefit of the doubt and say the show don’t tell experience can slow things> being known by 15 years. Thinking of it this way the show don’t tell stuff> will trickle into public awareness within our lifetime. So you have slowed> it down by say one generation. Not really a big deal in the grand scheme,> unless you enjoy the drama or plan to leverage the knowledge in some way.
While it might not be a big deal to you, it is a very big deal to me. Aaron Ramras too. 15 years for a larger group of people to probe out and have the exploration experience actually sounds quite nice. I think that is about how long it will last. There are more canyons out there not found than people believe. As for the “enjoying drama” and “leverage of knowledge” comment, I was initially quite put off by this comment. Projecting motivations onto others is a difficult, if not impossible task to get right. It is hard to escape the mirror. For me anyway. We can only be in our own skin, but then I realized that I have used the leverage of knowledge to further my agenda once. I shall confess
Before the publishing of the 2nd edition of the Kelsey tech book, Mike approached me, requesting that I give him all of the canyons i knew about that he didn’t, so he could publish them. I saw an opportunity and opened a negotiation with him, offering him canyon beta in exchange for him disavowing the use of the G-Pick and bolting, especially in areas where it is illegal. I probably would have gone through with it, but of course, Mike could not. It had to be very hard on him not to go for it
I would like to share the wording of Mike’s offer, before moving on. Mike to me. “If you give me all these unknown canyons, I will give you all of the one’s I am about to publish, so you can do them before they are ruined.” While Mike’s use of language matches my own for…..ahhhh…. creative license, I think it’s fair to say that he thinks beta-ing canyons has impacts
> I find it unfortunate that a better way to > accomplish this has not been found. People feeling left out or teased or > taunted or whatever label you want to put on it, is not how I like to see> people interact.
I am sorry that people feel that way. When they handed out common sense, i missed some of that. I also missed the envy and coveting line too. I look at your life. Its a wonderful one. You are doing tons of adventures, with great people and you are out a lot when i am home working. You have a fabulous sense of fun too. i wish i could spend more time with you. It would never occur to me to feels pangs of jealousy. But i wonder if others do? They see you blog and look at your life….I wonder. The point is, you can’t control how other people feel about you. For one thing it is not yours to own. It belongs to others. You just have to be true to yourself and let it rip. Not to say that your opinion did not get taken into full consideration. Three albums were not published from this last trip, off of your’s and another s sensibilities. Is anyone a loser or winner, here? Who and how? Opinions anyone?
With all that said I am still curious about the question I asked earlier in > this post. > You wrote
* I personally don’t want any canyon to stay a secret forever > * i expect every canyon to be found. > *I post pictures that help that along > * I want you to figure it out and explore..or just explore. If you want > *The BIGGEST reason I post pictures is I am part owner of this group and I > feel an obligation to offer content. Everything else bounces off that > *many are offended by pictures without names and beta > * i post pictures of everywhere i go > *most places i go have no beta > * if you find a canyon I keep close to the breast, it is yours to do with > what you will. I may compare names and history…. >
> Am I interpreting your intentions properly?
Are you saying you post your pictures to help the canyon discovery process > along and you want people to figure out where they are?
what was lost in the partial list of my bullet points is that I am trying to encourage exploration while there is still time. having canyons discovered along the way is just part of the price. I have admitted that these goals, slowing publishing and encouraging exploration are at opposition to each other. There are many unflattering names you can call me if you wish, hypocrite at the fore perhaps
> Are you saying that if someone were to do that then the canyon is theirs to > do what they want with no hard feelings, since that is what you encouraged> anyway?
Even without my encouragement too. I don’t feel loss or pain when new canyons get put out there. When kelsey published his 2nd edition, there were 24 canyons i had done, that did not have beta, that he published. I admit I reviewed the table of contents with great energy to see what he found and what he missed, but hard feelings? Nah. I was concerned about the amount of X canyons divulged and said so to anyone who would listen. Since then i have modified my position on this. There has been no rush into trouble on a broad level, with the possible exception of Egypt 4
> Sure someone can do what they want with publicly posted info. > But my question to you is, do you really encourage that so the canyons get > found or would you in all honesty be upset if that info were handled in a > way you don’t agree with?
Upset about canyons being found? NO Upset about how ANY canyon gets treated..bolts, graffiti etc. yes. Published or unpublished. I do not believe I have control with that. I don’t believe publishing beta mitigates these negative things from happening. Just my opinion from the time observing.
We will have to have good times in places where our views do not > clash.
And i will let everyone know we have been chatting sideband, like the friends that we are, scheduling just such a trip. I am off to the desert tomorrow Ram