Tom,
Rather than add to the very long reply, let’s take each method separately. They certainly have advantages and limitations that deserve discussion and hopefully a better understanding of both of them. I also know you were talking about simply going down the rope and not how it is anchored, but I think talking about the two competing systems will be more useful.
Updated Toss and Go Double Strand Technique
Advantages
1. Simplest method for fixing the rope.
Feed one end through the ring/sling and deploy enough rope to reach the bottom. This is very fault tolerant, meaning there are few ways you can fail to rig it properly.
2. Less wear on the rope.
By doubling, the tension is one half the single line methods. It may not be as important for a large diameter rope (11mm), but the new thinner ropes being promoted are showing significant damage can occur in a short period of time, particularly if precautions aren’t taken. For a given size rope, double strand provides a higher safety margin with respect to abrasion and rope damage.
3. Simple and fast courtesy shifts.
4. Easier to ascend.
Limitations
1. Twisting/kinking with Figure 8s
Figure 8s put more twist into a rope than ATCs or racks. This can lead to having to deal with kinks while on rappel and makes the rope more difficult to handle afterwards. It is preferable to use ATCs or racks only with this technique. When a Figure 8 has to be used, it should not be used by the last person down the rope.
2. Should not be used in high water (C canyons).
Canyons that have a strong current of water requre advanced techniques that provide more options in a timely manner if a problem should arise. Having to execute a floating disconnect is also a limitation with this method.
I’m not sure that Toss and Go adequately describes this method when used with a rope bag. For shorter raps one can now deploy only the amount of rope needed, just as in the single line method, and rap down deploying rope out of the bag, or toss the bag which only releases the rope needed. Instead of ending up with a “tangle” of rope at the bottom, the lines are kept separate and excess rope kept in the bag, just like single line.
Rapping down double strands of rope passed through the ring is a time proven technique that is easy to learn, simple to use and very fault tolerant. Adding a rope bag reduces the handling work on par with other methods. People discrediting this technique should be more forthcoming with the limitations of the other methods.
Steve Tucson, AZ
P.S. For those interested, my answers to Tom’s questions in the very long post follows:
>> D. The margin of safety is increased due to point A >> and how it affects abrasion, most importantly when using >> skinny ropes around rough rocks.
Since ropes very rarely cut to the point of people dying,
True in the past, when larger ropes were the norm. Not guaranteed now or in the future as more people use thinner ropes. Already several reports of sheaths being cut and cores shot on single raps.
> We are aware that it is possible for people to rig on > the wrong side of the anchor, however, we DO teach people > to be aware of this problem, we DO anchor the other side > of the rope, and we DO manage the other side of the rope > to make it unattractive.
More things to do, more things to think of, more ways to make a mistake. This is a less fault tolerant method. My experience at the festival was these added steps were not adhered to by users of the single line methods. I don’t think the method is bad, but it requires more experience and practice than toss and go and I think it is a poor choice for teaching in a single beginners course.
> Seems like you think these things are difficult or time > consuming to rig.
Not at all. My biggest concern is they are less fault tolerant. The block method requires tying and retying (for shifts) a knot to fix the rope. Not dressed properly, it can slip and fail. Not tied correctly, it can fail. It can loosen or shift on the biner in between raps. Types of things that beginners, even trained ones, are prone to do.
I bring up the time issue because people keep telling me the single line method is so much faster than toss and go. I think overall the methods are similar for time, and any difference is small compared to other factors affecting overall time in a canyon.
> Uh, really? You really carry 4X length of longest rappel?
Yes. I would say it varies from 3X-5X. Usually this means 2 60m, 1 or 2 30m and several smaller ones. We’ll throw in another 60m if it is an unfamiliar or advanced canyon. I really can’t understand any team just bringing enough real rope to cover the longest drop.
Koen
The problems I’ve experienced when others used a figure 8 on a 11mm > Edelweiss Canyon rope doubled was it left kinks in the rope. When > following the person these kinks would end up as crossed-over loops > jamming the ATC.
Ha ! The problem isn’t with the figure of 8 kinking the rope but with ATC’s that can’t swallow it ;-).
It all depends on the situation, I have a simple rule of thumb:
– danger of drowning anywhere along the line, be it somewhere
during the rappel (a 1 ft stretch is enough) or at the bottom =
single line with a contigency anchor on top (or a guided rappel).
– anywhere else I go double. With an 8 ;-).
This is good advice, though it adds the judgement of what situations > constitute a danger of drowning. I approach most of these issues from the > opposite side the more experienced members of this group do. I think about > how the advice is used by people who are new to the sport and/or people > trying to learn new things. >
You’re right, I should have added: – when in doubt, use single line on a contingency anchor.
This applies to all kinds of hesitation, whether someone will end up in a waterfall or not, whether there are nasty hydraulics below or not and whether the rope is long enough or not. When not 100 % sure (have a perfect & complete view of the waterfall and what’s below), go safe.
Koen
Steve Newcomb
Thanks for the useful comments Koen.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Koen” wrote: >> Limitations >
> 1. Twisting/kinking with Figure 8s
> ?!? I must have done 10.000+ rappels on double rope with a fig > 8 and I’ve experienced maybe 2 cases where rope twist became > a minor problem, a minor one.
The problems I’ve experienced when others used a figure 8 on a 11mm Edelweiss Canyon rope doubled was it left kinks in the rope. When following the person these kinks would end up as crossed-over loops jamming the ATC. I wouldn’t call it a major problem, but it required more work to untwist the rope before it got to the device and made it more of a pain to coil the rope after the rap.
> When rapping off double rope in an fig 8 I almost never rig it > “climbers style”, but always “canyon style”: through the big hole > and into the carabiner, never around the 8. This makes rope > twist a non-issue.
Thanks. I’ll suggest that technique when it comes up in the future.
>> 2. Should not be used in high water (C canyons). >
> Depends on the situation: if the rappel is next to the waterfall and > you can stand below I see no reason why not.
My thinking here is the technique should be used with caution when around a lot of moving water.
>> Canyons that have a strong current of water requre advanced >> techniques that provide more options in a timely manner if a >> problem should arise. Having to execute a floating disconnect is >> also a limitation with this method.
It all depends on the situation, I have a simple rule of thumb: > – danger of drowning anywhere along the line, be it somewhere > during the rappel (a 1 ft stretch is enough) or at the bottom = > single line with a contigency anchor on top (or a guided rappel). > – anywhere else I go double. With an 8 ;-).
Koen
This is good advice, though it adds the judgement of what situations constitute a danger of drowning. I approach most of these issues from the opposite side the more experienced members of this group do. I think about how the advice is used by people who are new to the sport and/or people trying to learn new things. Yes, from an experienced and skilled point of view, everything comes down to knowing what you are doing and having the experience and skills to cover the many possibilities that may arise.
Steve Tucson, AZ
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson wrote: > Any chance the fact that you’re hanging around placing bolts vs. just rap’in off play a factor?
Apples to apples. Hanging around placing bolts (using the leg wrap method of stopping) versus single rope on a gri gri.
But, sure. Any swingin’ around can’t be good. And, one thing I do when I’m hanging off a gri gri, is ascend short or long sections of rope. Handy. But, hard on ropes, too.
> I won’t argue two strands is less stress, I’m just not sure it equlas core shoot vs. not. Seems core shoots are from cowby moves, but I’m not the old salt you fellers are.
Sheath damage is sheath damage, just levels of severity.
Its very rare that I get any sheath damage from rappelling double strand. And, I rappel that way a bunch. I’d guess 30+ times this month alone (climb, rappel, repeat).
-Brian in SLC
neil wilkinson
Any chance the fact that you’re hanging around placing bolts vs. just rap’in off play a factor?
I won’t argue two strands is less stress, I’m just not sure it equlas core shoot vs. not. Seems core shoots are from cowby moves, but I’m not the old salt you fellers are.
Neil
beadysee beadysee@yahoo.com> wrote:
I rig single a bunch off a single climbing rope (rap and drill from a gri gri, weenie that I am). I pick up a ton more rope wear when I do that, versus just a double rope rappel on the same terrain.
-Brian in SLC
FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click.
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote: > Gotta agree with BDC. Half the tension on the rope means the > cutting effect is much less. I would put it as a definite advantage > of double strand – less chance of dinging the rope.
Another thing that I think that double ropes help with…is rope movement across an edge. I think there’d be less chance that two ropes, side by each, would roll or skid across an edge during a rappel. Higher friction, less chance of rolling.
> Ain’t been called a cowboy for some time. Thanks, Brian, I think.
Whoopee ki yo ki yeah, Tomboy. Its all good, baby. Plus, I’m always in need of upgrading climbing ropes anyhoo.
I’ll bet when we core shotted that rope coming off the Mountain of Mystery (into the NF of the Virgin), that had we used two ropes instead of one (with a pull cord), we might not have had near as much damage. Of course, not many folks carry two 100 meter sections of static line, along with two climbing ropes…
I rig single a bunch off a single climbing rope (rap and drill from a gri gri, weenie that I am). I pick up a ton more rope wear when I do that, versus just a double rope rappel on the same terrain.
-Brian in SLC
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson a ‘real world’ scenario. Most catastrophic rope damage, i.e. core > shoots, is directly related to rope placement and descent technique > in a real world sense. The thought that having my rope doubled > would prevent me from getting a core shoot is silly.
But…
Wouldn’t a doubled rope reduce the chance or severity of core shots given that in the ‘real world’, rope placement and descent technique is anything but optimum?
Bouncy, long descents over smooth edges would benefit from double > ropes, methinks. (given that I have several ropes that have been > trashed from SRT on long descents).
I dunno. My experience is, that when I use a single rope to rappel (in combo with a pull cord), I seem to get more rope damage than from double rope rappels.
Actually, biggest player may be elimaniting rodeo starts and certain cowboys from rappelling on my ropes (you know who you are…ha ha).
Anyhoo…
-Brian in SLC > Gotta agree with BDC. Half the tension on the rope means the cutting effect is much less. I would put it as a definite advantage of double strand – less chance of dinging the rope.
Ain’t been called a cowboy for some time. Thanks, Brian, I think.
Tom
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, neil wilkinson wrote:
The wear advantages between single and double are likely zero in a ‘real world’ scenario. Most catastrophic rope damage, i.e. core shoots, is directly related to rope placement and descent technique in a real world sense. The thought that having my rope doubled would prevent me from getting a core shoot is silly.
But…
Wouldn’t a doubled rope reduce the chance or severity of core shots given that in the ‘real world’, rope placement and descent technique is anything but optimum?
Bouncy, long descents over smooth edges would benefit from double ropes, methinks. (given that I have several ropes that have been trashed from SRT on long descents).
I dunno. My experience is, that when I use a single rope to rappel (in combo with a pull cord), I seem to get more rope damage than from double rope rappels.
Actually, biggest player may be elimaniting rodeo starts and certain cowboys from rappelling on my ropes (you know who you are…ha ha).
Anyhoo…
-Brian in SLC
neil wilkinson
The wear advantages between single and double are likely zero in a ‘real world’ scenario. Most catastrophic rope damage, i.e. core shoots, is directly related to rope placement and descent technique in a real world sense. The thought that having my rope doubled would prevent me from getting a core shoot is silly. Of course, some of us are into splitting hairs under the microscope and if reducing odds from 1:100,000 to 1:200,000 (or whatever hypothetical numbers tickle your brain) is important to you, well, than I guess you have something to argue about.
As far as simplicity, If applying a clove hitch to the spine of your favorite biner is something you think makes a rope system complicated I suggest you by Velcro closure shoes as the laces will make tying them much more difficult than even your rappel system.
As this thread continues at nauseum I am amazed at how perverted it has become from the basic premise that no one technique should never be used or always used. It’s good to understand how to apply differing systems as conditions, situations and environments change. An ounce of prevention will equal a pound of cure.
Enough on that, YMMV Neil
Steve Newcomb sanewcomb@yahoo.com> wrote: 2. Less wear on the rope.
By doubling, the tension is one half the single line methods. It may not be as important for a large diameter rope (11mm), but the new thinner ropes being promoted are showing significant damage can occur in a short period of time, particularly if precautions aren’t taken. For a given size rope, double strand provides a higher safety margin with respect to abrasion and rope damage.
FareChase – Search multiple travel sites in one click.
Koen
> Limitations
1. Twisting/kinking with Figure 8s
Figure 8s put more twist into a rope than ATCs or racks. This can lead to > having to deal with kinks while on rappel and makes the rope more > difficult to handle afterwards. It is preferable to use ATCs or racks only > with this technique. When a Figure 8 has to be used, it should not be used > by the last person down the rope. >
?!? I must have done 10.000+ rappels on double rope with a fig 8 and I’ve experienced maybe 2 cases where rope twist became a minor problem, a minor one. I’ve only once had to leave a rope behind in my whole career… and that was using a rack ! When rapping off double rope in an fig 8 I almost never rig it “climbers style”, but always “canyon style”: through the big hole and into the carabiner, never around the 8. This makes rope twist a non-issue.
> 2. Should not be used in high water (C canyons). >
Depends on the situation: if the rappel is next to the waterfall and you can stand below I see no reason why not.
> Canyons that have a strong current of water requre advanced techniques > that provide more options in a timely manner if a problem should arise. > Having to execute a floating disconnect is also a limitation with this > method. >
It all depends on the situation, I have a simple rule of thumb: – danger of drowning anywhere along the line, be it somewhere during the rappel (a 1 ft stretch is enough) or at the bottom = single line with a contigency anchor on top (or a guided rappel). – anywhere else I go double. With an 8 ;-).
Koen