I have never been keen on the ‘Taco” for flat surfaces with no lip.The original design was for use on flat surfaces…..surface area, friction and weight. Building a sand “berm” in front of the “taco” is not safe. This has been proven with someone actually falling because the sand “berm” is not solid like a lip or rock, especially if the ‘trap is not loaded correctly or in a dynamic load situation which simply moves the sand “berm” thereby not providing the same lip friction and protection of a more solid rock. I am constantly refining techniques and uses of the Sandtrap and will share with all for a safe and enjoyable “ghosting” experience in the type of canyons that we most enjoy…..no bolts. Don’t get me wrong, we also enjoy bolted routes. In fact tomorrow we are doing Behunin again. Did Icebox and Right Fork in the last two weeks as well as a few Powell canyons….Be safe out there!
Yahoo Canyons Group
RAM
taco set ups https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/GlenCanyon411Part1#5601626466627350786 https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/GlenCanyon411Part1#5601626510291663922 https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/GlenCanyon411Part1#5601626688877344306
think this is the tostada but not a great look at it https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/GlenCanyonZACOct2010#5535913669472794306
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “goodell_rob” wrote:
Thanks for the details on using sand traps. Does anyone have photos of these various setups- taco vs tostada, etc.? When in tostada mode are you piling more sand on the trap then when in taco mode? is that the point or is it to increase the surface area of the nylon, thus friction, when in tostada mode? Just curious. I was taught the taco & have not seen the other set ups in action. > Robb
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “watea192” wrote:
I’ve used the Sandtrap a lot and I am a firm believer in its utility in a wide variety of situations. However, I think the “berm” idea, made from sand, is ineffective and in fact makes the traction of the sandtrap significantly worse (some of you have heard my rant on this).
I’ve backed up the Sandtrap many, many times and seen how it behaves in lots of different conditions. Of course we’ve tried making a sand berm when the trap is set on a flat sandstone bench. I believe the berm gets overrun by the trap and simply provides a slippery rolling surface, rather than a sand “obstacle”.
The best most reliable geometry is an inclined plane (sand or sandstone) or sandstone lip; the worst geometry is a “V” shaped groove which can lead to snagging. Jugging up after stuck sandtraps is not super fun (but can be safe enough, especially if you have a lot of people below to “test” the stuckness before jugging).
A flat sandstone bench is best cleaned of all loose sand and then the trap applied in tostada style, with lots of sand. It can’t hurt to put other things on top with separate pull cords (pot shots, packs, etc), but I’ve rarely found it necessary.
Despite concerns about pullig, I have never had trouble pulling a tostada setup. It is important that the pull cord goes over the middle of the tostada, so the trap doesn’t just spin in place. Digging a furrow down the middle doesn’t seem to hurt…
A flat sandy area _can_ be dug out into a hole to provide an incline. However flat sandstone is best left clean…
As always, backing up and sending heavy people first is critical. When in doubt, last person should send their pack down ahead as well to reduce weight. If the trap moves on the 2nd to last person it is very disconserting, and it should have more sand added, and get pulled on very hard by people below until the last person is satisfied.
Just my opinion, which may not be worth as much as you paid for it…
–brendan
>
goodell_rob
Thanks Tom!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ratagonia” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “goodell_rob” wrote:
Thanks for the details on using sand traps. Does anyone have photos of these various setups- taco vs tostada, etc.? When in tostada mode are you piling more sand on the trap then when in taco mode? is that the point or is it to increase the surface area of the nylon, thus friction, when in tostada mode? Just curious. I was taught the taco & have not seen the other set ups in action.
Robb
Yes. Lay it out oriented as for the Taco, then fold back your tortilla so it lays flat and add more sand. To set yourself up for pulling success, give it some cleavage. You can lay the tip of the tail across and make a bit of a furrow, and maybe tug the cleaning strap to get the same kinda 2″ deep furrow underneath. In Tostada form, you can put a LOT more sand on it, especially if you make it deep over the side points, where it will clean easily but still provide plenty of weight.
Tom >
ratagonia
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “goodell_rob” wrote:
Thanks for the details on using sand traps. Does anyone have photos of these various setups- taco vs tostada, etc.? When in tostada mode are you piling more sand on the trap then when in taco mode? is that the point or is it to increase the surface area of the nylon, thus friction, when in tostada mode? Just curious. I was taught the taco & have not seen the other set ups in action. > Robb >
Yes. Lay it out oriented as for the Taco, then fold back your tortilla so it lays flat and add more sand. To set yourself up for pulling success, give it some cleavage. You can lay the tip of the tail across and make a bit of a furrow, and maybe tug the cleaning strap to get the same kinda 2″ deep furrow underneath. In Tostada form, you can put a LOT more sand on it, especially if you make it deep over the side points, where it will clean easily but still provide plenty of weight.
Tom
TomJones
Excellent Summary. Agree on all points.
The discussion of backing up points to that it REALLY helps to have a largish team when using the Sandtrap. Even after setting many traps, it is still not something I can consistently put the right amount of sand in ‘first try’. Test test test. Pulling with full body weight + bounce from the bottom may not be an effective test as the geometry may be considerably less-favorable elsewhere in the rappel.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “watea192” wrote:
I’ve used the Sandtrap a lot and I am a firm believer in its utility in a wide variety of situations. However, I think the “berm” idea, made from sand, is ineffective and in fact makes the traction of the sandtrap significantly worse (some of you have heard my rant on this).
I’ve backed up the Sandtrap many, many times and seen how it behaves in lots of different conditions. Of course we’ve tried making a sand berm when the trap is set on a flat sandstone bench. I believe the berm gets overrun by the trap and simply provides a slippery rolling surface, rather than a sand “obstacle”.
The best most reliable geometry is an inclined plane (sand or sandstone) or sandstone lip; the worst geometry is a “V” shaped groove which can lead to snagging. Jugging up after stuck sandtraps is not super fun (but can be safe enough, especially if you have a lot of people below to “test” the stuckness before jugging).
A flat sandstone bench is best cleaned of all loose sand and then the trap applied in tostada style, with lots of sand. It can’t hurt to put other things on top with separate pull cords (pot shots, packs, etc), but I’ve rarely found it necessary.
Despite concerns about pullig, I have never had trouble pulling a tostada setup. It is important that the pull cord goes over the middle of the tostada, so the trap doesn’t just spin in place. Digging a furrow down the middle doesn’t seem to hurt…
A flat sandy area _can_ be dug out into a hole to provide an incline. However flat sandstone is best left clean…
As always, backing up and sending heavy people first is critical. When in doubt, last person should send their pack down ahead as well to reduce weight. If the trap moves on the 2nd to last person it is very disconserting, and it should have more sand added, and get pulled on very hard by people below until the last person is satisfied.
Just my opinion, which may not be worth as much as you paid for it…
–brendan >
goodell_rob
Thanks for the details on using sand traps. Does anyone have photos of these various setups- taco vs tostada, etc.? When in tostada mode are you piling more sand on the trap then when in taco mode? is that the point or is it to increase the surface area of the nylon, thus friction, when in tostada mode? Just curious. I was taught the taco & have not seen the other set ups in action. Robb
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “watea192” wrote:
I’ve used the Sandtrap a lot and I am a firm believer in its utility in a wide variety of situations. However, I think the “berm” idea, made from sand, is ineffective and in fact makes the traction of the sandtrap significantly worse (some of you have heard my rant on this).
I’ve backed up the Sandtrap many, many times and seen how it behaves in lots of different conditions. Of course we’ve tried making a sand berm when the trap is set on a flat sandstone bench. I believe the berm gets overrun by the trap and simply provides a slippery rolling surface, rather than a sand “obstacle”.
The best most reliable geometry is an inclined plane (sand or sandstone) or sandstone lip; the worst geometry is a “V” shaped groove which can lead to snagging. Jugging up after stuck sandtraps is not super fun (but can be safe enough, especially if you have a lot of people below to “test” the stuckness before jugging).
A flat sandstone bench is best cleaned of all loose sand and then the trap applied in tostada style, with lots of sand. It can’t hurt to put other things on top with separate pull cords (pot shots, packs, etc), but I’ve rarely found it necessary.
Despite concerns about pullig, I have never had trouble pulling a tostada setup. It is important that the pull cord goes over the middle of the tostada, so the trap doesn’t just spin in place. Digging a furrow down the middle doesn’t seem to hurt…
A flat sandy area _can_ be dug out into a hole to provide an incline. However flat sandstone is best left clean…
As always, backing up and sending heavy people first is critical. When in doubt, last person should send their pack down ahead as well to reduce weight. If the trap moves on the 2nd to last person it is very disconserting, and it should have more sand added, and get pulled on very hard by people below until the last person is satisfied.
Just my opinion, which may not be worth as much as you paid for it…
–brendan >
canyonfreak49
Hi Tom, Maria says you were in the Cafe Soleil the other day saying you needed to see your chiro…. I have been seeing dr Chris Hansen in Hurricane over the last 4 years whenever I needed a tweak. Great guy….canyoneer, ultra marathoner ,trail runner(Grand Canyon rim to rim) and lecturer at local college. $25 per visit cash, works wonders. 668-8810. Cheers.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
No I have not.
Pulled a Water Trap last November. That hurt – still hurts!
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyonfreak49” wrote:
Tom, have you ever fallen while using the Sandtrap?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
I’m just trying to figure out your statement, Steve:
> This has been proven with someone actually falling because …
That’s all. I am pretty sure you thoroughly back things up just as we do, therefore your statement is entirely obscure… to what incident are you referring? Why was the trap not backed up?
I believe I am the one who previously suggested that the “Taco with Beans on the side” would be better than the “Tostada”. But like many of my suggestions, when actually tried in the field – yeah, the berm (the “beans on the side”) did absolutely not work. Tostadas it is!!!
Tom
canyonfreak49
Agreed Brendan, my original thoughts exactly. Be safe out there…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “watea192” wrote:
I’ve used the Sandtrap a lot and I am a firm believer in its utility in a wide variety of situations. However, I think the “berm” idea, made from sand, is ineffective and in fact makes the traction of the sandtrap significantly worse (some of you have heard my rant on this).
I’ve backed up the Sandtrap many, many times and seen how it behaves in lots of different conditions. Of course we’ve tried making a sand berm when the trap is set on a flat sandstone bench. I believe the berm gets overrun by the trap and simply provides a slippery rolling surface, rather than a sand “obstacle”.
The best most reliable geometry is an inclined plane (sand or sandstone) or sandstone lip; the worst geometry is a “V” shaped groove which can lead to snagging. Jugging up after stuck sandtraps is not super fun (but can be safe enough, especially if you have a lot of people below to “test” the stuckness before jugging).
A flat sandstone bench is best cleaned of all loose sand and then the trap applied in tostada style, with lots of sand. It can’t hurt to put other things on top with separate pull cords (pot shots, packs, etc), but I’ve rarely found it necessary.
Despite concerns about pullig, I have never had trouble pulling a tostada setup. It is important that the pull cord goes over the middle of the tostada, so the trap doesn’t just spin in place. Digging a furrow down the middle doesn’t seem to hurt…
A flat sandy area _can_ be dug out into a hole to provide an incline. However flat sandstone is best left clean…
As always, backing up and sending heavy people first is critical. When in doubt, last person should send their pack down ahead as well to reduce weight. If the trap moves on the 2nd to last person it is very disconserting, and it should have more sand added, and get pulled on very hard by people below until the last person is satisfied.
Just my opinion, which may not be worth as much as you paid for it…
–brendan >
watea192
I’ve used the Sandtrap a lot and I am a firm believer in its utility in a wide variety of situations. However, I think the “berm” idea, made from sand, is ineffective and in fact makes the traction of the sandtrap significantly worse (some of you have heard my rant on this).
I’ve backed up the Sandtrap many, many times and seen how it behaves in lots of different conditions. Of course we’ve tried making a sand berm when the trap is set on a flat sandstone bench. I believe the berm gets overrun by the trap and simply provides a slippery rolling surface, rather than a sand “obstacle”.
The best most reliable geometry is an inclined plane (sand or sandstone) or sandstone lip; the worst geometry is a “V” shaped groove which can lead to snagging. Jugging up after stuck sandtraps is not super fun (but can be safe enough, especially if you have a lot of people below to “test” the stuckness before jugging).
A flat sandstone bench is best cleaned of all loose sand and then the trap applied in tostada style, with lots of sand. It can’t hurt to put other things on top with separate pull cords (pot shots, packs, etc), but I’ve rarely found it necessary.
Despite concerns about pullig, I have never had trouble pulling a tostada setup. It is important that the pull cord goes over the middle of the tostada, so the trap doesn’t just spin in place. Digging a furrow down the middle doesn’t seem to hurt…
A flat sandy area _can_ be dug out into a hole to provide an incline. However flat sandstone is best left clean…
As always, backing up and sending heavy people first is critical. When in doubt, last person should send their pack down ahead as well to reduce weight. If the trap moves on the 2nd to last person it is very disconserting, and it should have more sand added, and get pulled on very hard by people below until the last person is satisfied.
Just my opinion, which may not be worth as much as you paid for it…
–brendan
TomJones
No I have not.
Pulled a Water Trap last November. That hurt – still hurts!
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyonfreak49” wrote:
Tom, have you ever fallen while using the Sandtrap?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
I’m just trying to figure out your statement, Steve:
> This has been proven with someone actually falling because …
That’s all. I am pretty sure you thoroughly back things up just as we do, therefore your statement is entirely obscure… to what incident are you referring? Why was the trap not backed up?
I believe I am the one who previously suggested that the “Taco with Beans on the side” would be better than the “Tostada”. But like many of my suggestions, when actually tried in the field – yeah, the berm (the “beans on the side”) did absolutely not work. Tostadas it is!!!
Tom
canyonfreak49
Tom, have you ever fallen while using the Sandtrap?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
I’m just trying to figure out your statement, Steve:
> This has been proven with someone actually falling because …
That’s all. I am pretty sure you thoroughly back things up just as we do, therefore your statement is entirely obscure… to what incident are you referring? Why was the trap not backed up?
I believe I am the one who previously suggested that the “Taco with Beans on the side” would be better than the “Tostada”. But like many of my suggestions, when actually tried in the field – yeah, the berm (the “beans on the side”) did absolutely not work. Tostadas it is!!!
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyonfreak49” wrote:
Hi Tom,
If you look at all the Sandtrap vids I posted, you will see them all backed up.So far, with 100’s of Sandtrap descents in tostada, taco and also ‘sandwich mode, no falls.The only time I like falling is when I’m skydiving….Be safe out there.
I heard sometime ago that someone fell 15feet or so because the berm gave way in front of a Taco setup?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyonfreak49” wrote:
This has been proven with someone actually falling because …
Because the Trap was not backed up????
Tom
TomJones
I’m just trying to figure out your statement, Steve:
> This has been proven with someone actually falling because …
That’s all. I am pretty sure you thoroughly back things up just as we do, therefore your statement is entirely obscure… to what incident are you referring? Why was the trap not backed up?
I believe I am the one who previously suggested that the “Taco with Beans on the side” would be better than the “Tostada”. But like many of my suggestions, when actually tried in the field – yeah, the berm (the “beans on the side”) did absolutely not work. Tostadas it is!!!
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyonfreak49” wrote:
> Hi Tom, > If you look at all the Sandtrap vids I posted, you will see them all backed up.So far, with 100’s of Sandtrap descents in tostada, taco and also ‘sandwich mode, no falls.The only time I like falling is when I’m skydiving….Be safe out there. > I heard sometime ago that someone fell 15feet or so because the berm gave way in front of a Taco setup?
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyonfreak49” wrote:
This has been proven with someone actually falling because …
Because the Trap was not backed up????
Tom
>
canyonfreak49
I agree Ram. As we all know, the taco is the most solid, hanging behind a lip. And it also empties easier than the tostada. So if a choice between these setups, obviously it all depends on the available surface… If you get a chance sometime Ram, try the ‘sandwich setup if you need a guide as well.It is also a great choice when confronted with a slight downsloping surface with no other options. Used it only once at Powell in this situation, piled way too much sand on each, but the downslope helped make the pull easier.Maybe the berm idea here? Be safe. — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
No rights or wrongs here, except backing up everyone except the last soul and having the last soul rapping on a set up that has been successfully tested by at least (hopefully) 2 successful raps before them.
Among those that I know who have used the trap the most, opinions and preferences vary. I hope I am speaking accurately about what people believe. Tom and I use the tostada (flat system) less than others. Jenny and Steve are big fans of it. I will set my trap further back than many to get the geometry I want. Jenny and I think berms, if large enough work OK. Steve and Brendan dismiss them as not working in general. Let the debate and refinements continue, under the safety of the back up. Back up…back up…back up
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyonfreak49″ wrote:
I have never been keen on the ‘Taco” for flat surfaces with no lip.The original design was for use on flat surfaces…..surface area, friction and weight. Building a sand “berm” in front of the “taco” is not safe. This has been proven with someone actually falling because the sand “berm” is not solid like a lip or rock, especially if the ‘trap is not loaded correctly or in a dynamic load situation which simply moves the sand “berm” thereby not providing the same lip friction and protection of a more solid rock. I am constantly refining techniques and uses of the Sandtrap and will share with all for a safe and enjoyable “ghosting” experience in the type of canyons that we most enjoy…..no bolts. Don’t get me wrong, we also enjoy bolted routes. In fact tomorrow we are doing Behunin again. Did Icebox and Right Fork in the last two weeks as well as a few Powell canyons….Be safe out there!
>
canyonfreak49
Hi Tom, If you look at all the Sandtrap vids I posted, you will see them all backed up.So far, with 100’s of Sandtrap descents in tostada, taco and also ‘sandwich mode, no falls.The only time I like falling is when I’m skydiving….Be safe out there. I heard sometime ago that someone fell 15feet or so because the berm gave way in front of a Taco setup?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyonfreak49” wrote:
This has been proven with someone actually falling because …
Because the Trap was not backed up????
Tom >
RAM
No rights or wrongs here, except backing up everyone except the last soul and having the last soul rapping on a set up that has been successfully tested by at least (hopefully) 2 successful raps before them.
Among those that I know who have used the trap the most, opinions and preferences vary. I hope I am speaking accurately about what people believe. Tom and I use the tostada (flat system) less than others. Jenny and Steve are big fans of it. I will set my trap further back than many to get the geometry I want. Jenny and I think berms, if large enough work OK. Steve and Brendan dismiss them as not working in general. Let the debate and refinements continue, under the safety of the back up. Back up…back up…back up
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyonfreak49″ wrote:
I have never been keen on the ‘Taco” for flat surfaces with no lip.The original design was for use on flat surfaces…..surface area, friction and weight. Building a sand “berm” in front of the “taco” is not safe. This has been proven with someone actually falling because the sand “berm” is not solid like a lip or rock, especially if the ‘trap is not loaded correctly or in a dynamic load situation which simply moves the sand “berm” thereby not providing the same lip friction and protection of a more solid rock. I am constantly refining techniques and uses of the Sandtrap and will share with all for a safe and enjoyable “ghosting” experience in the type of canyons that we most enjoy…..no bolts. Don’t get me wrong, we also enjoy bolted routes. In fact tomorrow we are doing Behunin again. Did Icebox and Right Fork in the last two weeks as well as a few Powell canyons….Be safe out there! >
TomJones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “canyonfreak49” wrote:
This has been proven with someone actually falling because …
Because the Trap was not backed up????
Tom