The last comment makes me curious:
How many times have you had a “natural” anchor fail? How many times have you had a bolt anchor fail?
Myself:
Natural: 1 Bolt: 0
Anybody want to play along? You can reply by changing the above # accordingly. I have no idea what the tally will be.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “jddiener”
I can’t speak for Tom, but I don’t think my philosophy regarding bolts has changed since the accident. I wouldn’t characterize my thinking as anti-bolt, more like, they just aren’t needed many places on the CP. I’ve used ghosting techniques such as macrame and omnisling, and of course standard natural anchor techniques like deadmen etc., but had almost no experience with the new sandtrap and watertrap tools. Obviously this trip was not a good intro for me – we made multiple mistakes. I think there were (at least) 4 reasons why the setup we used was not ideal, but that will be delved into later. I think an important item to note is that the system we used was entirely inspectable, although we failed our duty to do so. Bolts, not always so easy. [helmet on] > -john
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, rging@ wrote:
Are you still anti bolt?
>
scott patterson
> How many times have you had a “natural” anchor fail? > How many times have you had a bolt anchor fail?
As far as failing while I or someone else was on rappel; 0 for each.  However, when testing an achor, I’ve been able to pull two bolted anchors out with my bare hands; once in Upper Chute and once in Eardley.  I have also pulled off a natural anchor (which looked manky before I even yanked on it) someone else had previously installed in Hyde Draw.  When I did Hog 1 with Shane Burrows and Hank Moon, the chockstone moved on the first short rappel (or down climb), but it didn’t fail.
RAM
I respectfully see it quite differently and in spite of its failure here, during its prototype testing period.
I think you could rap a small car off of this anchor with the weight in water, geometry etc. Its a steep 90 foot rap BTW
https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/GlenCanyon1Oct2011#5672998733945881122 then https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/GlenCanyon1Oct2011#5672998744911332002 then https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/GlenCanyon1Oct2011#5672998761040435922
The other non compacter bag prototype, Jenny’s design https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/GlenCanyonSept2011Part1#5656974193192897138 and another big drop https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/TODCanyon10811#5670710130724891954 down this https://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/TODCanyon10811#5670710156688867522
Skepticism is valid with new ideas applied in unforgiving places. Now even more true off the recent event. Like all anchors, they have to be 100% every time. The failed chockstone anchor Dan mentioned doesn’t make all chockstone anchors a form of Free soloing. Both these prototype water traps have great potential and have performed splendidly in MOST situations, during the testing period. It needs to perform in ALL situations though. We have not lost our energy in moving the testing forward. ram
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “mike_dallin” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
One other item…. I’m not sure if I consider sandtraps and/or hooks to be natural anchors. I’ve never had either fail on me, but I would probably consider both to be a hybrid, at least from an engineering view point. YMMV….
The watertrap is like canyoneering’s version of free soloing. Some climbers think free soloing is an amazing experience, some would never do it but think those that do are inspirational, some would never do it and think climbers that do are foolish.
Rappelling off of trash compactor bags full of water? Let’s just say I’m not so much into free soloing.
M >
nat_smale
I actually have had a bolt anchor fail while climbing. A friend and I had completed a route in Yosemite called “Mental Block (back in the early 80’s). It’s about 4 pitches or so, and one rappels the route after getting to the top. I was rappeling down the first pitch (the last rap), which was off of 2 reasonably good looking bolts, when one of the bolts sheared off; I only dropped about a foot or two, but it was scary. Luckily the other bolt held. My friend papped next, and left a cam in a crack to back up the remaining bolt. It is always reassuring to have a redundant anchor.
Nat
phil
Indeed. Mine would have been solid if I would have down climbed just a few feet further.
Natural: 4 Bolt: 1 (Ram’s Adirondack witnessing)
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “jddiener” wrote:
Hi Phillip, using your criteria my numbers match yours. But that is not why I’m responding. The point I was trying to make was that I think the anchor we were using should have been fully verifiable, if we had taken proper steps. Complexity vs. inspectability/verifiability? Could be an argument there… > -john
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
The last comment makes me curious:
How many times have you had a “natural” anchor fail?
How many times have you had a bolt anchor fail?
Myself:
Natural: 1
Bolt: 0
Anybody want to play along? You can reply by changing the above # accordingly. I have no idea what the tally will be.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “jddiener” wrote:
I can’t speak for Tom, but I don’t think my philosophy regarding bolts has changed since the accident. I wouldn’t characterize my thinking as anti-bolt, more like, they just aren’t needed many places on the CP. I’ve used ghosting techniques such as macrame and omnisling, and of course standard natural anchor techniques like deadmen etc., but had almost no experience with the new sandtrap and watertrap tools. Obviously this trip was not a good intro for me – we made multiple mistakes. I think there were (at least) 4 reasons why the setup we used was not ideal, but that will be delved into later. I think an important item to note is that the system we used was entirely inspectable, although we failed our duty to do so. Bolts, not always so easy. [helmet on]
> -john
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, rging@ wrote:
Are you still anti bolt?
jddiener
Hi Phillip, using your criteria my numbers match yours. But that is not why I’m responding. The point I was trying to make was that I think the anchor we were using should have been fully verifiable, if we had taken proper steps. Complexity vs. inspectability/verifiability? Could be an argument there… -john
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
The last comment makes me curious:
How many times have you had a “natural” anchor fail? > How many times have you had a bolt anchor fail?
Myself:
Natural: 1 > Bolt: 0
Anybody want to play along? You can reply by changing the above # accordingly. I have no idea what the tally will be.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “jddiener” wrote:
I can’t speak for Tom, but I don’t think my philosophy regarding bolts has changed since the accident. I wouldn’t characterize my thinking as anti-bolt, more like, they just aren’t needed many places on the CP. I’ve used ghosting techniques such as macrame and omnisling, and of course standard natural anchor techniques like deadmen etc., but had almost no experience with the new sandtrap and watertrap tools. Obviously this trip was not a good intro for me – we made multiple mistakes. I think there were (at least) 4 reasons why the setup we used was not ideal, but that will be delved into later. I think an important item to note is that the system we used was entirely inspectable, although we failed our duty to do so. Bolts, not always so easy. [helmet on]
-john
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, rging@ wrote:
Are you still anti bolt?
Gordon
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
> How many times have you had a “natural” anchor fail? > How many times have you had a bolt anchor fail?
0 and 0, unless you count the bolt that pulled completely out of the rock when the hangar was wiggle tested with fingers. Given the geometry, we probably could have rapped on it just fine, due to the cantilever action. Since there was a log 20 feet upstream, it wasn’t necessary.
Gordon
Ice
>>I am curious about the act of failure not the potential of. If you want to call those of us who have had such failures dumbasses than go ahead; I am an accepting member of said group.
I understand now… To be counted I actually had to be stupid enough to weight a faulty system….
So from that brilliant perceptive my record is Zero – Zero – Zero.
Carry on….
RAM
I don’t recall exactly, but didn’t A and I downclimb instead of rap? Think this was 2002 maybe, or later? Saw a 2 bolt anchor have one bolt fly out on a group in front of us in the Dacks in 1986
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
So, including Dan’s response:
Bolts: 0 > Natural/Other: 3
Other=anything other than bolts.
Only seems fair to include rappel anchors in the climbing world as well (while rappelling though, not in the act of climbing or falling from).
Food for thought. Whatever the tally it doesn’t mean one is safer or more fail proof than the other. For example, in my anchor failure,it worked for everyone but me the last person. I loaded it wrong and therefor failed in my judgement. The human element is more relevant to this than the anchors themselves.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
Should have none a simple question would be parsed…hehe
I will add the following caveats: a failure can be anything that happens while on rappel, first weighting the rope in staging area or testing the anchor in the direction of pull/rappel.
So, that doesn’t include any anchor that we intentionally remove before the above actions. Looking at actual accidents or failed anchors, NOTHING PROACTIVE.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
Over the years I’ve removed a couple dozen bolts in canyons with my fingers. I consider those to be failures.
>
phil
Yeah, it was that one. Common denominator? There was a time when I described my trips as the “Misadventures of John and Phillip”. I realized after I stopped hanging out with John that the misadventures continued. So…
I have found gnawed on webbing as well. Never pulled a bolt straight out myself but plenty I definitely chose not to use.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “RAM” wrote:
I was there, wasn’t I? east Lep with Aaron and I? Am becoming the common denominator? > Never had eiother fail on me personal;ly but i have found anchors, many, of both kinds that I could take apart with one hand and 2 pounds of pressure. With boltsd, some of the old ones just come out in your hand. With thewebbing in buried rocks AND tough to see and inspect pinches, found the webbing chewed all the way through when a good yank led you to think it was solid. Scaaaary. Don’t take that for granted. Little mammals and gravel and sand grinding goes through webbing
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
The last comment makes me curious:
How many times have you had a “natural” anchor fail?
How many times have you had a bolt anchor fail?
Myself:
Natural: 1
Bolt: 0
Anybody want to play along? You can reply by changing the above # accordingly. I have no idea what the tally will be.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “jddiener” wrote:
I can’t speak for Tom, but I don’t think my philosophy regarding bolts has changed since the accident. I wouldn’t characterize my thinking as anti-bolt, more like, they just aren’t needed many places on the CP. I’ve used ghosting techniques such as macrame and omnisling, and of course standard natural anchor techniques like deadmen etc., but had almost no experience with the new sandtrap and watertrap tools. Obviously this trip was not a good intro for me – we made multiple mistakes. I think there were (at least) 4 reasons why the setup we used was not ideal, but that will be delved into later. I think an important item to note is that the system we used was entirely inspectable, although we failed our duty to do so. Bolts, not always so easy. [helmet on]
> -john
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, rging@ wrote:
Are you still anti bolt?
RAM
Gee, I was there for that one too. The little drop that gets avoided when snow prevents one to enter just beyond, right at the top. Big rock in a deep hole with a steep lip……all mitigated and rapidly by snow and its slick surface and REALLY poor rap technique.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dan” wrote:
Hmm… depends?
I’ve seen two natural anchors fail. One was at freezefest, on about a 10 foot drop in middle lep that is normally easily downclimbed. It wasn’t backed up, and it could be argued that the rappeller used poor technique. The rappeller actually ended up landing on his feet, and the 20 pound boulder just glanced past his foot. The fact the rock was buried in snow doesn’t help, it slid too easily. It was sketchy, to say the least.
The other was a chokestone in Robber’s Roost country that blew, on a 20 foot drop. Again, if weighted properly it probably was fine (I had already rapped on it.) But the 2nd person to rap on it weighted it upward, and the rock moved, and he fell the entire 15 foot length landing in soft sand, no injuries or even scrapes to speak of. Scary.
As for bolts, I’ve probably saw three bolt anchors that would’ve failed in just Poe alone. Granted they were old, and we easily pulled the weak bolts, sometimes with bare hands… but nonetheless, they likely would’ve failed.
Probably seen another handful that I simply refused to use as they looked like crap, and used natural anchors instead.
Bottom line – if you want to protect your own neck, you better trust your ability to analyze anchors, regardless the anchor being a bolt or a natural one. >
phil
Shane….BLAH ;^)
I am curious about the act of failure not the potential of. If you want to call those of us who have had such failures dumbasses than go ahead; I am an accepting member of said group.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
>> So, that doesn’t include any anchor that we intentionally remove before the above actions. Looking at actual accidents or failed anchors, NOTHING PROACTIVE.
> I TOTALLY disagree with your new limitations…. if you are doing your job properly all anchors should have proactive work done to them and they should never fail. I would consider checking webbing to be proactive.
So….. with you new limitations what you are really asking is “Which one of you dumbasses didn’t inspect your anchors, or install/construct them properly, which resulted in a failure?” >
RAM
I was there, wasn’t I? east Lep with Aaron and I? Am becoming the common denominator? Never had eiother fail on me personal;ly but i have found anchors, many, of both kinds that I could take apart with one hand and 2 pounds of pressure. With boltsd, some of the old ones just come out in your hand. With thewebbing in buried rocks AND tough to see and inspect pinches, found the webbing chewed all the way through when a good yank led you to think it was solid. Scaaaary. Don’t take that for granted. Little mammals and gravel and sand grinding goes through webbing
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
The last comment makes me curious:
How many times have you had a “natural” anchor fail? > How many times have you had a bolt anchor fail?
Myself:
Natural: 1 > Bolt: 0
Anybody want to play along? You can reply by changing the above # accordingly. I have no idea what the tally will be.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “jddiener” wrote:
I can’t speak for Tom, but I don’t think my philosophy regarding bolts has changed since the accident. I wouldn’t characterize my thinking as anti-bolt, more like, they just aren’t needed many places on the CP. I’ve used ghosting techniques such as macrame and omnisling, and of course standard natural anchor techniques like deadmen etc., but had almost no experience with the new sandtrap and watertrap tools. Obviously this trip was not a good intro for me – we made multiple mistakes. I think there were (at least) 4 reasons why the setup we used was not ideal, but that will be delved into later. I think an important item to note is that the system we used was entirely inspectable, although we failed our duty to do so. Bolts, not always so easy. [helmet on]
-john
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, rging@ wrote:
Are you still anti bolt?
Ice
>> So, that doesn’t include any anchor that we intentionally remove before the above actions. Looking at actual accidents or failed anchors, NOTHING PROACTIVE.
I TOTALLY disagree with your new limitations…. if you are doing your job properly all anchors should have proactive work done to them and they should never fail. I would consider checking webbing to be proactive.
So….. with you new limitations what you are really asking is “Which one of you dumbasses didn’t inspect your anchors, or install/construct them properly, which resulted in a failure?”
phil
So, including Dan’s response:
Bolts: 0 Natural/Other: 3
Other=anything other than bolts.
Only seems fair to include rappel anchors in the climbing world as well (while rappelling though, not in the act of climbing or falling from).
Food for thought. Whatever the tally it doesn’t mean one is safer or more fail proof than the other. For example, in my anchor failure,it worked for everyone but me the last person. I loaded it wrong and therefor failed in my judgement. The human element is more relevant to this than the anchors themselves.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “phil” wrote:
Should have none a simple question would be parsed…hehe
I will add the following caveats: a failure can be anything that happens while on rappel, first weighting the rope in staging area or testing the anchor in the direction of pull/rappel.
So, that doesn’t include any anchor that we intentionally remove before the above actions. Looking at actual accidents or failed anchors, NOTHING PROACTIVE.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
Over the years I’ve removed a couple dozen bolts in canyons with my fingers. I consider those to be failures. >
phil
Should have none a simple question would be parsed…hehe
I will add the following caveats: a failure can be anything that happens while on rappel, first weighting the rope in staging area or testing the anchor in the direction of pull/rappel.
So, that doesn’t include any anchor that we intentionally remove before the above actions. Looking at actual accidents or failed anchors, NOTHING PROACTIVE.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote:
Over the years I’ve removed a couple dozen bolts in canyons with my fingers. I consider those to be failures.
mike_dallin
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ice” wrote: > One other item…. I’m not sure if I consider sandtraps and/or hooks to be natural anchors. I’ve never had either fail on me, but I would probably consider both to be a hybrid, at least from an engineering view point. YMMV…. >
The watertrap is like canyoneering’s version of free soloing. Some climbers think free soloing is an amazing experience, some would never do it but think those that do are inspirational, some would never do it and think climbers that do are foolish.
Rappelling off of trash compactor bags full of water? Let’s just say I’m not so much into free soloing.
M
Ice
Over the years I’ve removed a couple dozen bolts in canyons with my fingers. I consider those to be failures. Perhaps you could of rapped on the poorly placed bolts, but not what I would consider safely.
I’ve never had a natural anchor fail.
One other item…. I’m not sure if I consider sandtraps and/or hooks to be natural anchors. I’ve never had either fail on me, but I would probably consider both to be a hybrid, at least from an engineering view point. YMMV….
Dan
Hmm… depends?
I’ve seen two natural anchors fail. One was at freezefest, on about a 10 foot drop in middle lep that is normally easily downclimbed. It wasn’t backed up, and it could be argued that the rappeller used poor technique. The rappeller actually ended up landing on his feet, and the 20 pound boulder just glanced past his foot. The fact the rock was buried in snow doesn’t help, it slid too easily. It was sketchy, to say the least.
The other was a chokestone in Robber’s Roost country that blew, on a 20 foot drop. Again, if weighted properly it probably was fine (I had already rapped on it.) But the 2nd person to rap on it weighted it upward, and the rock moved, and he fell the entire 15 foot length landing in soft sand, no injuries or even scrapes to speak of. Scary.
As for bolts, I’ve probably saw three bolt anchors that would’ve failed in just Poe alone. Granted they were old, and we easily pulled the weak bolts, sometimes with bare hands… but nonetheless, they likely would’ve failed.
Probably seen another handful that I simply refused to use as they looked like crap, and used natural anchors instead.
Bottom line – if you want to protect your own neck, you better trust your ability to analyze anchors, regardless the anchor being a bolt or a natural one.
Wayne Burns
I like the question! I this case I am zero & zero (hooray!), but I personally feel much more confident inspecting a natural anchor than a bolt.
Wayne
To: Yahoo Canyons Group From: Happyfeet00@Hotmail.com Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:14:31 +0000 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Was: Tommy Tumbledore Now: Bolt/Natural Failure
The last comment makes me curious:
How many times have you had a “natural” anchor fail? How many times have you had a bolt anchor fail?
Myself:
Natural: 1 Bolt: 0
Anybody want to play along? You can reply by changing the above # accordingly. I have no idea what the tally will be.
Phillip
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “jddiener” wrote:
I can’t speak for Tom, but I don’t think my philosophy regarding bolts has changed since the accident. I wouldn’t characterize my thinking as anti-bolt, more like, they just aren’t needed many places on the CP. I’ve used ghosting techniques such as macrame and omnisling, and of course standard natural anchor techniques like deadmen etc., but had almost no experience with the new sandtrap and watertrap tools. Obviously this trip was not a good intro for me – we made multiple mistakes. I think there were (at least) 4 reasons why the setup we used was not ideal, but that will be delved into later. I think an important item to note is that the system we used was entirely inspectable, although we failed our duty to do so. Bolts, not always so easy. [helmet on] > -john
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, rging@ wrote:
Are you still anti bolt?
>