Of course, it is a lot more than that. A canyon of historic and…..ahhhh….interesting anchors (see home page photo and wait for stories). Also a place that eats ropes. Notorious for that really. How did this group of seasoned veterans deal with that? And Rubbish? How much can one canyon hold? Story at 10! The big wall? How long is it really? And how long did it take? Pictures? They will come soon. And how to get from the bottom of the canyon to a road? Mysteries, mysteries. The crew…Todd Martin, Rich Rudow, Arizona Aaron Locander, Tom Jones, Sonny Lawrence and Ram. 2-21-09.
Yahoo Canyons Group
hank moon
Direct links to midwall (c)rap station shots:
http://micurl.com/mzzp5x http://micurl.com/qrwbin
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Ron Graham dsrtfox@earthlink.net> wrote: > Recall that Luke Galyan and Paul Des Roches got some good closeup > photos of the midwall rap station during our trip down Waterholes last > year:
http://www.bluugnome.com/canyoneer_tripreport_lower-water-holes_03-15-08_pics.aspx
Ron Graham
Our rope was a nearly brand new 400′ section of 9MM polyester rope purchased from a Mr. Tom Jones. The pull cord we were using with the rope was a Jones product as well. No worries about your products ever breaking out of the box, Tom; even after we set up a 5:1 block and tackle system to try to get the rope moving, 3 guys putting their full body weight into it (nearly 2,500 pounds of force) couldn’t even break the pull cord! (Although not advised by the manufacturer, it’s now clear to me from hands-on product testing that one probably could safely rap on a new pull cord if one absolutely had to.) We clipped about 35 feet off the ends of both the rope and pull cord for use later in less hungry canyons.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
Clickable: http://tinyurl.com/anme7g
> Hmmm, a lot of changes to the anchors, mostly in the addition of > more junk, more webbing, more fixed ropes. What kind of rope was > yours, that got stuck? Did you end up getting some or all of it > back?
Midwall rap station looks pretty OK.
Tom
>
Tom Jones
Clickable: http://tinyurl.com/anme7g
Hmmm, a lot of changes to the anchors, mostly in the addition of more junk, more webbing, more fixed ropes. What kind of rope was yours, that got stuck? Did you end up getting some or all of it back?
Midwall rap station looks pretty OK.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ron Graham” wrote:
Recall that Luke Galyan and Paul Des Roches got some good closeup > photos of the midwall rap station during our trip down Waterholes last > year:
http://www.bluugnome.com/canyoneer_tripreport_lower-water-holes_03-15- 08_pics.aspx
Has anything changes in that setup at that station from what Luke and > Paul captured in their photos?
And did anyone get photos of the new rap station below the top of the > rope eating crack? From Luke’s and Paul’s photos of our descents, I’m > trying to envision where exactly it was located. Flat stance or > angled? Can you keep all of your weight on your feet at that stance > or is it a partially hanging anchor? >
Ron Graham
Recall that Luke Galyan and Paul Des Roches got some good closeup photos of the midwall rap station during our trip down Waterholes last year:
http://www.bluugnome.com/canyoneer_tripreport_lower-water-holes_03-15-08_pics.aspx
Has anything changes in that setup at that station from what Luke and Paul captured in their photos?
And did anyone get photos of the new rap station below the top of the rope eating crack? From Luke’s and Paul’s photos of our descents, I’m trying to envision where exactly it was located. Flat stance or angled? Can you keep all of your weight on your feet at that stance or is it a partially hanging anchor?
Tom Jones
The fixed, 300+ foot rope showed signs of chewing at the position of the rope eating crack, so I suspect it went in there and got gnawed on some. Probably left, then blow by the wind off to the side, and hooked on that knob.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
5 bolts at many stations? Fixed ropes EVERYWHERE! At almost every > drop. Tires. Car shells. Stuck webbing. Stuck rope. Oh did I mention > how many pieces of webbing stuck in the keeper crack? Here are a few > rubbish pics. If we had removed ALL the fixed lines our load would > have been an extra 25 lb’s apiece. Makes me wonder? Was the canyon > fixed? Will someone go down expecting a line to be there at every > drop? There was a 300+ foot rope tied off to the anchor, yet the rope > was slung across the big face, hooked on a horn, on the edge of the > big wall and suspended below, still 40 feet from the ground. When we > dropped it, it still clung to the knob. A further flick and it came > down. There was evidence everywhere that the canyon has been often and > for a long time by folks with…..interesting gear. 😉
http://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WaterholesRubbish#
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Bouldering cars, dodging carcasses, and rope eating cracks oh my….
Waterholes would not dissappoint.
Judging by the bolt gardens, neon webbing, and LOTS of dynamic rope, a
variety of folks seem to try Waterholes Canyon. Even below the upper
exit route we found plenty of canyon trash … and a little booty too.
Some of the ropes at the big drop were not even eaten by the crack.
They were fixed with a nice figure 8 with no attempt to pull. This
rope eating crack stuff seems to have intimidated many a descender to
not even TRY a pull. Must have been 1000′ of rope in that slot at a
bare minimum. We hacked a few down from the big rap and carried out
what we could. Here are a few of my photos from a great day with great
company:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rich.rudow/WaterholesFeb212009#
> Oh …. how big is the rap? Well, Todd tossed the 300′ rope from
the ‘non crack eating’ anchor station that Tom and Todd constructed.
The only answer was ….. silence! Doh …. now what?
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
Of course, it is a lot more than that. A canyon of historic
> and…..ahhhh….interesting anchors (see home page photo and wait
> for stories). Also a place that eats ropes. Notorious for that really.
> How did this group of seasoned veterans deal with that? And Rubbish?
> How much can one canyon hold? Story at 10! The big wall? How long is
> it really? And how long did it take? Pictures? They will come soon.
> And how to get from the bottom of the canyon to a road? Mysteries,
> mysteries. The crew…Todd Martin, Rich Rudow, Arizona Aaron Locander,
> Tom Jones, Sonny Lawrence and Ram. 2-21-09.
adkramoo
I can’t imagine swinging to that ledge. You got to understand just how “out there” you are! And how far laterally it is! The new station 15 feet down looks to even increase the angle needed to get over, while lessening rock stick prospects. There is a left facing corner between the mid station and the high ones. Would that come into play rubbing wise? Wouldn’t surprise. And if you got your rope stuck on the mid station. Unhappy day!
Reminds me of a story. On the final rap in heaps. I go 1st, below the know and am lowered and rap at the same time. When i start off, the tourists start screaming from below!!! YOUR ROPE DOESN’T REACH!! I just smile and wave. Then The rope touches down before me, to that polite “golf clap” one gets from the crowd. Too funny!
And when we got to the bottom, we were “SWARMED” by black flies. One of the worst in the desert i could remember. Doing a fireman belay was an act of dedication, at a cost. Coiling the roipe too. So weird. Not a bug above that
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “arlocand” wrote:
I was the 4th person down the big drop and I got a good look at that > mid wall station. The station is aobut 15 to 20 feet to the left > (LDC) of the long 300′ drop. The first person would have to rappell > down to the correct level, if not a few feet below the elevation of > the mid wall station, tie off and then do a series of increasing > pendulum swings to get over there. I didn’t try to do this for 2 > main reasons, I had a large 40 lb pack hanging below me which would > have made it much more difficult to swing, and I also had the 100 to > 150′ of rope still below me which would have inhibited my swing. If > I didn’t have a pack, and the rope was shorter It is definitly > possible to pendulum over there after a few tries. The entire face > of the wall is completely smooth and verticle above the mid wall > station thereby prohibiting any sort of rappell and angle over to it > from above. The only way I saw to get over to it was to swing over, > which would have taken multiple tries to get up enough momentum, > definitly not someting for the light of heart.
The anchor at the mid wall station looked excessive. The ledge it’s > on sticks out about 2 feet total from the wall. Don’t let this fool > you, the ledge is sloped down smooth at about a 45 degree angle to > another perfectly smooth verticle face. Furthermore there are 3 > modern bolt and hangers that are located on the verticle face just > above the ledge, but they are only about a foot off of the top edge > of the ledge. They were not set up so that you can stand on the > ledge and hang on the bolts. If you stood upright on the ledge you > would have your waist a foot or so above the top bolt, not good. > Furthermore there is at least 2 pitons, maybe more that are drilled > into the slopy face of the ledge itself. So in order to properly > use the anchor you would have to do a rock climbing style hanging > belay off the edge of the ledge with the anchors above you. > Furthermore there was a small rats nest of webbing connecting all > these peices together and it looked a bit old and thrown together. > There was also some pieces of hardware in there but I couln’t make > out there condition.
Once the first person makes it to the mid wall station and cleans up > the anchor, I would recomend that they attach the end of the rope > from above to the anchor so taht the second person does not need to > pendulum over, all they need to do is rappel down, lock off and then > pull themselves over with the end of the rope to the anchor. It > looks like there would be a clean pull from the new anchor (15 below > the old top anchor, just below the rope eating crack) to the mid > wall station. Therefore The new 15 down anchor should serve both > styles of rappels much better (both the 300′ and 200′ methods).
I unfortunatly did not get a picture of the station, although I wish > I did now. Hope this description helps, if you plan on using the > mid wall station, send the person least afraid of heights, and self > induced pendulums and watch for any friction points on the way down > which a few pendulums might create a real issue on. I don’t recall > any, but I wasn’t looking either.
Arizona Aaron >
adkramoo
5 bolts at many stations? Fixed ropes EVERYWHERE! At almost every drop. Tires. Car shells. Stuck webbing. Stuck rope. Oh did I mention how many pieces of webbing stuck in the keeper crack? Here are a few rubbish pics. If we had removed ALL the fixed lines our load would have been an extra 25 lb’s apiece. Makes me wonder? Was the canyon fixed? Will someone go down expecting a line to be there at every drop? There was a 300+ foot rope tied off to the anchor, yet the rope was slung across the big face, hooked on a horn, on the edge of the big wall and suspended below, still 40 feet from the ground. When we dropped it, it still clung to the knob. A further flick and it came down. There was evidence everywhere that the canyon has been often and for a long time by folks with…..interesting gear. 😉
http://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WaterholesRubbish#
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Bouldering cars, dodging carcasses, and rope eating cracks oh my…. > Waterholes would not dissappoint.
Judging by the bolt gardens, neon webbing, and LOTS of dynamic rope, a > variety of folks seem to try Waterholes Canyon. Even below the upper > exit route we found plenty of canyon trash … and a little booty too. > Some of the ropes at the big drop were not even eaten by the crack. > They were fixed with a nice figure 8 with no attempt to pull. This > rope eating crack stuff seems to have intimidated many a descender to > not even TRY a pull. Must have been 1000′ of rope in that slot at a > bare minimum. We hacked a few down from the big rap and carried out > what we could. Here are a few of my photos from a great day with great > company:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rich.rudow/WaterholesFeb212009#
> Oh …. how big is the rap? Well, Todd tossed the 300′ rope from > the ‘non crack eating’ anchor station that Tom and Todd constructed. > The only answer was ….. silence! Doh …. now what?
> Rich
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
Of course, it is a lot more than that. A canyon of historic
and…..ahhhh….interesting anchors (see home page photo and wait
for stories). Also a place that eats ropes. Notorious for that really.
How did this group of seasoned veterans deal with that? And Rubbish?
How much can one canyon hold? Story at 10! The big wall? How long is
it really? And how long did it take? Pictures? They will come soon.
And how to get from the bottom of the canyon to a road? Mysteries,
mysteries. The crew…Todd Martin, Rich Rudow, Arizona Aaron Locander,
Tom Jones, Sonny Lawrence and Ram. 2-21-09.
>
Tom Jones
My rope currently measures 299 feet (+/- 1 foot). I suspect it measured 304 feet when we did the rappel, and shrunk about 5 feet from getting wet and sitting in my car a little damp for a couple of days. Hard to say. So the mystery continues.
Chris from Phoenix just ordered a 325′ rope to go up this weekend. Perhaps he can report back on what he finds.
The station could be rigged a little longer to get another foot or so out of it. Makes the start a little harder. There is a rub spot a few feet below the station (the ledge we are standing on) that suggests moving the rope a bit between people might be a good idea. Folks may want to set up a lower-and-rappel and lower out 10 feet of the upper rope to get some safety margin on the ground.
The station COULD be rigged with the webbing going over the edge, especially for the last person, but this would involve almost a jump start (not recommended). The ledge is a thin ledge atop an overhang, and is narrow enough that sitting down on it would be quite difficult.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
We’ll need to wait until Tom measures his rope to be absolutely > sure. Unweighted, Tom’s rope was hanging about 5 feet in the air > above a ledge allowing you to get off rope above the bottom of the > canyon. We were certainly at the bare minimum length from the new > bolt station.
Rich
rich_rudow
We’ll need to wait until Tom measures his rope to be absolutely sure. Unweighted, Tom’s rope was hanging about 5 feet in the air above a ledge allowing you to get off rope above the bottom of the canyon. We were certainly at the bare minimum length from the new bolt station.
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote:
Ok how long is the drop from the new bolt station: 300 ft, 305, 325 > ft.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “arlocand” wrote:
Hope this description helps, if you plan on using the
> mid wall station, send the person least afraid of heights, and > self
> induced pendulums and watch for any friction points on the way > down
> which a few pendulums might create a real issue on. I don’t > recall
> any, but I wasn’t looking either.
Arizona Aaron
> From the “new” station, the rope crosses the ledge we were standing > on
creating a rub point. If doing the Pendulum to the midwall > station, I
would want that edge padded where the rope crosses it.
I am going to carefully re-measure the “300 foot” rope we used, to > see
exactly how long it is.
Tom
>
Shaun
Ok how long is the drop from the new bolt station: 300 ft, 305, 325 ft.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “arlocand” From the “new” station, the rope crosses the ledge we were standing on > creating a rub point. If doing the Pendulum to the midwall station, I > would want that edge padded where the rope crosses it.
I am going to carefully re-measure the “300 foot” rope we used, to see > exactly how long it is.
Tom >
richard berk
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Tom Jones ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group , richard berk > wrote:
Bandito hangers? Thought those guys stuck to up climbing – not the > down
stuff. Maybe someone with liberated hangers?
> Original, I think. Those Banditos got around, did all sorts of fun > things… and the bolt in it looks dicey, as in original.
Tom
> Wow – they did get around. thanks >
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, richard berk wrote:
Bandito hangers? Thought those guys stuck to up climbing – not the down > stuff. Maybe someone with liberated hangers? > Original, I think. Those Banditos got around, did all sorts of fun things… and the bolt in it looks dicey, as in original.
Tom
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “arlocand” wrote:
Hope this description helps, if you plan on using the > mid wall station, send the person least afraid of heights, and self > induced pendulums and watch for any friction points on the way down > which a few pendulums might create a real issue on. I don’t recall > any, but I wasn’t looking either.
Arizona Aaron > From the “new” station, the rope crosses the ledge we were standing on creating a rub point. If doing the Pendulum to the midwall station, I would want that edge padded where the rope crosses it.
I am going to carefully re-measure the “300 foot” rope we used, to see exactly how long it is.
Tom
rich_rudow
Judging by all of the dynamic rope in the canyon, plenty of ‘up climbers’ go down Waterholes.
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, richard berk wrote:
Bandito hangers? Thought those guys stuck to up climbing – not the down > stuff. Maybe someone with liberated hangers?
> >
richard berk
Bandito hangers? Thought those guys stuck to up climbing – not the down stuff. Maybe someone with liberated hangers?
arlocand
I was the 4th person down the big drop and I got a good look at that mid wall station. The station is aobut 15 to 20 feet to the left (LDC) of the long 300′ drop. The first person would have to rappell down to the correct level, if not a few feet below the elevation of the mid wall station, tie off and then do a series of increasing pendulum swings to get over there. I didn’t try to do this for 2 main reasons, I had a large 40 lb pack hanging below me which would have made it much more difficult to swing, and I also had the 100 to 150′ of rope still below me which would have inhibited my swing. If I didn’t have a pack, and the rope was shorter It is definitly possible to pendulum over there after a few tries. The entire face of the wall is completely smooth and verticle above the mid wall station thereby prohibiting any sort of rappell and angle over to it from above. The only way I saw to get over to it was to swing over, which would have taken multiple tries to get up enough momentum, definitly not someting for the light of heart.
The anchor at the mid wall station looked excessive. The ledge it’s on sticks out about 2 feet total from the wall. Don’t let this fool you, the ledge is sloped down smooth at about a 45 degree angle to another perfectly smooth verticle face. Furthermore there are 3 modern bolt and hangers that are located on the verticle face just above the ledge, but they are only about a foot off of the top edge of the ledge. They were not set up so that you can stand on the ledge and hang on the bolts. If you stood upright on the ledge you would have your waist a foot or so above the top bolt, not good. Furthermore there is at least 2 pitons, maybe more that are drilled into the slopy face of the ledge itself. So in order to properly use the anchor you would have to do a rock climbing style hanging belay off the edge of the ledge with the anchors above you. Furthermore there was a small rats nest of webbing connecting all these peices together and it looked a bit old and thrown together. There was also some pieces of hardware in there but I couln’t make out there condition.
Once the first person makes it to the mid wall station and cleans up the anchor, I would recomend that they attach the end of the rope from above to the anchor so taht the second person does not need to pendulum over, all they need to do is rappel down, lock off and then pull themselves over with the end of the rope to the anchor. It looks like there would be a clean pull from the new anchor (15 below the old top anchor, just below the rope eating crack) to the mid wall station. Therefore The new 15 down anchor should serve both styles of rappels much better (both the 300′ and 200′ methods).
I unfortunatly did not get a picture of the station, although I wish I did now. Hope this description helps, if you plan on using the mid wall station, send the person least afraid of heights, and self induced pendulums and watch for any friction points on the way down which a few pendulums might create a real issue on. I don’t recall any, but I wasn’t looking either.
Arizona Aaron
Tom Jones
The “new” station is about 15 feet down and 3 feet to the side of the fall line from the top anchor; and adjacent to the “rope-eating” portion of the crack – so it should not effect the difficulty of getting to the mid-wall-crappy-ledge station, which is considerably off to the side. None of us tried to get there, so we do not know how difficult it is to get to, or how good it is, or how comfortable for people to hang out at.
The “new” station is a resurrection of an old station. There is a small ledge (room for two, if your definition of ‘room’ is minimal) at the station, and three studs without hangers.
Pulling a rope off the “top” anchor from the off-to-the-side midwall station would not improve the pull much. The problem is not the “pull”, the problem is the “drop” – as the rope end clears the anchor, it will drop straight down and might get stuck in the crack. Or perhaps the problem is the “hang”, the rope hanging from the “top” anchor sits right across the rope-eating crack section and gets pulled into the pinch by the weight of the hanging rope. Which the midwall station improves only slightly by having less rope hanging.
I consider myself an expert on sticking ropes, having done it on many occasions. The short rappel to the “new” station and the hassles of moving a group through that spot are worth the huge decrease in rope-sticking chances, whether using a 304 foot rope to get to the ground, or using 200 foot ropes and heading for the mid- wall ledge.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote:
Nice pics. So I read a TR & beta over at the ACA site. Someone > wrote the pull is easier to avoid the rope eating crack by > rappeling to the mid wall station and pulling your rope from there > then rappel the rest of the way to the bottom.
With this new station 20 ft down I assume it’s better pull to > avoid the rope eating crack. What about the traverse from this > station over to the mid wall station for those of us that don’t > carry 325ft of rope.
thanks
Shaun
Nice pics. So I read a TR & beta over at the ACA site. Someone wrote the pull is easier to avoide the rope eating crack by rappeling to the mid wall station and pulling your rope from there then rappel the rest of the way to the bottom.
With this new station 20 ft down I assum it’s better pull to avoide the rope eating crack. What about the traverse from this station over to the mid wall station for those of us that don’t carry 325ft of rope.
thanks
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “rich_rudow” wrote:
Bouldering cars, dodging carcasses, and rope eating cracks oh my…. > Waterholes would not dissappoint.
Judging by the bolt gardens, neon webbing, and LOTS of dynamic rope, a > variety of folks seem to try Waterholes Canyon. Even below the upper > exit route we found plenty of canyon trash … and a little booty too. > Some of the ropes at the big drop were not even eaten by the crack. > They were fixed with a nice figure 8 with no attempt to pull. This > rope eating crack stuff seems to have intimidated many a descender to > not even TRY a pull. Must have been 1000′ of rope in that slot at a > bare minimum. We hacked a few down from the big rap and carried out > what we could. Here are a few of my photos from a great day with great > company:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rich.rudow/WaterholesFeb212009#
> Oh …. how big is the rap? Well, Todd tossed the 300′ rope from > the ‘non crack eating’ anchor station that Tom and Todd constructed. > The only answer was ….. silence! Doh …. now what?
> Rich
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
Of course, it is a lot more than that. A canyon of historic
and…..ahhhh….interesting anchors (see home page photo and wait
for stories). Also a place that eats ropes. Notorious for that really.
How did this group of seasoned veterans deal with that? And Rubbish?
How much can one canyon hold? Story at 10! The big wall? How long is
it really? And how long did it take? Pictures? They will come soon.
And how to get from the bottom of the canyon to a road? Mysteries,
mysteries. The crew…Todd Martin, Rich Rudow, Arizona Aaron Locander,
Tom Jones, Sonny Lawrence and Ram. 2-21-09.
>
rich_rudow
Bouldering cars, dodging carcasses, and rope eating cracks oh my…. Waterholes would not dissappoint.
Judging by the bolt gardens, neon webbing, and LOTS of dynamic rope, a variety of folks seem to try Waterholes Canyon. Even below the upper exit route we found plenty of canyon trash … and a little booty too. Some of the ropes at the big drop were not even eaten by the crack. They were fixed with a nice figure 8 with no attempt to pull. This rope eating crack stuff seems to have intimidated many a descender to not even TRY a pull. Must have been 1000′ of rope in that slot at a bare minimum. We hacked a few down from the big rap and carried out what we could. Here are a few of my photos from a great day with great company:
http://picasaweb.google.com/rich.rudow/WaterholesFeb212009#
Oh …. how big is the rap? Well, Todd tossed the 300′ rope from the ‘non crack eating’ anchor station that Tom and Todd constructed. The only answer was ….. silence! Doh …. now what?
Rich
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
Of course, it is a lot more than that. A canyon of historic > and…..ahhhh….interesting anchors (see home page photo and wait > for stories). Also a place that eats ropes. Notorious for that really. > How did this group of seasoned veterans deal with that? And Rubbish? > How much can one canyon hold? Story at 10! The big wall? How long is > it really? And how long did it take? Pictures? They will come soon. > And how to get from the bottom of the canyon to a road? Mysteries, > mysteries. The crew…Todd Martin, Rich Rudow, Arizona Aaron Locander, > Tom Jones, Sonny Lawrence and Ram. 2-21-09. >