Another what-if regarding this situation could have been the person that fell didn’t come off the rope at the bottom. He is immobile and his full weight is on the rope. You are alone at the top. How are you going to get on the rope to rap down to him? As practice for Bridge Day we weight a rope with 50-60 lbs of dead weight. It is near impossible to rig a rap device alone with just this much weight on it. —– Original Message —– From: “Rich Carlson” rcwildone@yahoo.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 1:57:35 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re:What would you do?……was Man survives 100-foot fall,
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , “Lee Eismann”
Just curious….if the Scene Survey is so important, why didn’t you first mention it? Shouldn’t it be the first thing that happens in such an incident, not just your assertion that “you MUST rappel….”.
Because I was replying to the scenario as Ram laid it out.
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Lee Eismann” wrote:
But, as a responsible outdoor enthusiast, shouldn’t you be prepared
to deal with situations that may arise? You certainly can’t train
and prepare for every possible scenario, but you can try to set
yourself up as best as possible with basic first aid courses, basic
canyoneering, basic survival, and so on.
I’m with you on this one, and that’s why I’ve taken all the courses I could, whether they be canyoneering or first aid related, and, in fact, was personally responsible for organizing many of those courses that were taught here in SoCal.
BUT therein lies the rub…..many people couldn’t care less about taking first aid, basic or advanced, or resuce courses. So, no, I’ve found that you cannot assume that other people that you recreate with will have the same contingency training.
And that’s why I offered this an an alternative “it depends” solution.
> Agreed, but you have to get there first. You must have the necessary skills to descend 300′ with no assistance and then ascend the same 300′ with no assistance. How many weekend warriors on Yahoo can say that they would be comfortable doing so and could do it without harming themselves? I think I can handle the former, but on the latter, I think the rescuers would find my lifeless body, about 2/3 of the way up, having died of exhaustion while trying to rush up the ascent!
I think it “depends” for certain canyons (as you hinted at lower in your response). I allow large variations of experience in certain canyons, say Pine Creek and Keyhole. But applied to this particular canyon, Englestead, I am very particular (too the bain of my wife). I have made it clear to all my partners that I am not interested in descending the canyon until every member is comfortable descending, ascending, and problem solving intermediate problems mid-300′ rappel. I prefer to take the approach that no person is the “trip leader” or “guest” socially in that situation, we all share equal personal and group responsibility. My wife is jonesing to do this canyon, and has for 3 years, but I will not budge. This specific event clarifies the purpose of that philosophy and why I have yet to descend Englestead (also an issue of timing with trained friends).
I think it will take more aggressive philosophies by “mentors” in canyoneering to set very explicit limits to what they are willing to let slide for any change in culture to happen. I say this after watching only 7-8 years of canyoneering develop in Utah. I have watched friends and acquaintances rush into the sport without the “pre-requisite” skills, which i think is most importantly a minor sense of trepidation/critical analysis. Now, i don’t expect everyone to rush off and become guide certified like me for recreational reasons but I do think it must be made clear that a certain level of training (wether professional or backyard sessions) is “better” when descending advanced canyons in the backcountry (subjectivity understood for “advanced” and “backcountry”). I think more people need to say no and occasionally turnaround for anything to change, ie less accidents and deaths. This is very idealistic of me but I must admit I have been rather successful at employing it in personal trips.
I gotta go but I will be thinking about how I understand LMAR/most experienced member at top when rigging and descending, something I think all too often slides in social trips.
Enjoying the conversation and reminded that I really need to be WFR recertified.
Phillip
Lee Eismann
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dean Kurtz” wrote:
Actually, what was mentioned was the training that you provided
to Lee, not the specific organization that the materials came
from. Doesn’t matter, really, as the course is somewhat
customized, the materials are the same, and my point still stands.
If you don’t practice or recertify, you’re bound to forget things,
as is true with almost everything.
Thanks, Dean, that was my point exactly. I wanted to note the materials in case anyone wanted to comment.
And everyone should pay particular attention to what you wrote about forgetting things and that practice and recertification is absolutely necessary. That’s one of the things that impressed me about the CERT organization, too, in that they, along with volunteers from the fire department, regularly schedule “live” practice scenarios. So if you are involved with your local CERT in this capacity, thank you!
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rich Carlson” wrote:
Not confused about anything you posted, Dean. Confused about Lee’s > comment:
Rich claimed it was the “Emergency Care and Safety Institute”
> WFA course that he taught 4 years ago – it wasn’t.
I’d be happy to clear up any confusion. The certification card I was given states the following:
“….has successfully completed the knowledge and skill evaluations for the AAOS Emergency Care and Safety Institute Wilderness First Aid course.”
Questions?
Lee Eismann
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dean Kurtz” wrote:
Ouch, point out my spelling mistake!
Sorry ’bout that! I’ll make a mistake in this response and you can point it out.
> And if it’s not safe for you to go after him, why are you there > with him in the first place? I’m not picking on you specifically, > Lee, but you raise an interesting point. We all know that people > routinely enter situations that they have no business being in, > that’s why people like me have jobs and hobbies (healthcare, rescue, > etc…).
I’m not feeling picked on – I appreciate you taking on this discussion as a trained first responder.
You’ll note that I was/am responding to Ram’s scenario as another idea in the semi-finite realm of “it depends” solutions. I was merely providing another way of looking at the situation – not necessarily one that I personally could not handle. I wanted people to know that they should not blindly rappel down and offer aid if they do not have the requisite skills to do so. In other words – and please don’t take this the wrong way – just because Rich and Dean say *they think* it is the right thing to do, doesn’t make it automatically right for everyone to follow suit.
One thing I remember from the CERT class was this – when forming the action teams, it was noted by the firefighters that you should *not* volunteer for one that you are not comfortable with, and they used the example of trauma: if you are not able to handle the sight of mangled bodies and blood, then you probably should not be part of any first aid or triage team.
> But, as a responsible outdoor enthusiast, shouldn’t you be prepared > to deal with situations that may arise? You certainly can’t train > and prepare for every possible scenario, but you can try to set > yourself up as best as possible with basic first aid courses, basic > canyoneering, basic survival, and so on.
I’m with you on this one, and that’s why I’ve taken all the courses I could, whether they be canyoneering or first aid related, and, in fact, was personally responsible for organizing many of those courses that were taught here in SoCal.
BUT therein lies the rub…..many people couldn’t care less about taking first aid, basic or advanced, or resuce courses. So, no, I’ve found that you cannot assume that other people that you recreate with will have the same contingency training.
And that’s why I offered this an an alternative “it depends” solution.
> Me? I was prepared long before it was a career, and I believe all > of my regular partners are, albeit at different levels of expertise.
It’s not even my career, but I think I’ve done what I could in becoming prepared for some emergencies, whether they be in the outdoors or in urban environments. And it may be sad to say, but I *know* some of my regular partners are not as prepared as I am. Does that mean I shouldn’t do canyons with them? It doesn’t, but it does mean that I am cognizant of the canyons I do and with whom.
> Another good point. If you don’t practice, recertify, etc…, you > lose the skills that you worked hard to acquire.
I didn’t think of it that way, but that’s a great point. I had not used a lot of the WFA skills in 4 years, so the information presented in our CERT training over 3 full days was a very welcome refresher. That, and it was a true pleasure interacting with working firefighters and EMTs. And while CERT training is not a replacement for WFA, it did reinforce what I had previously learned and also reiterated the concept of working with what you have, which is always the case when in the wilderness.
> True. But for most people at least some of those qualifications are > within reach. You mentioned basic first aid. So many times, as in > the bleeder scenario I presented, basic first aid is all you need.
Agreed, but you have to get there first. You must have the necessary skills to descend 300′ with no assistance and then ascend the same 300′ with no assistance. How many weekend warriors on Yahoo can say that they would be comfortable doing so and could do it without harming themselves? I think I can handle the former, but on the latter, I think the rescuers would find my lifeless body, about 2/3 of the way up, having died of exhaustion while trying to rush up the ascent!
> Absolutely. Your first responsibility is always to yourself, second > to your partner, third to victim, fourth to bystanders. Everyone’s > assessment of a situation and willingness to provide aid and/or > accept risk is based on personal history, knowledge, comfort, etc…
And I think these very ideas – i.e. location and personal assessment – were missing from Ram’s “what if” discussion and Rich’s “it depends” answers.
> And the reality is that the Golden Hour is blown no matter how this > plays out. The Golden Hour specifically refers to time of accident > to time of definitive care, and quite frankly it’s not possible in > this situation.
Agreed.
> But, in my opinion, your friends best chance of survival still > relies on you providing initial care.
Only if I (“I” as in whoever is the partner) can safely do so without harming myself.
> Best case scenario involves a trained, equipped team being at the > Ponderosa when you come running in. That’s still pushing two hours.
But if I run into a hiker on the trail, and they can run back and alert emergency personnel while I go back to the canyon, I might be able to render first aid knowing that I have trained personnel coming to help.
> My comfort level is different than many others, but it’s my training > and experience that suggests the scenario that provides the best > possible outcome relies almost exclusively on the partner providing > first aid.
I’ll agree that your scenario provides the best outcome for a “C” injury, but *only* if the partner has the requisite skills to do so, and that also involves getting to the victim.
> Good discussion, Lee, I’m enjoying it.
Me, too, and thanks for taking the time to do so. I’m sure people on this Forum will/can benefit from your expertise.
~Lee
P.S. OK, find the mistake!
Dean Kurtz
>The time variable is one I think often gets overlooked, even in minor >accidents, which is why items like the “ten essentials” turn out to be so >important. I look at my rescue at Corona Arch outside of Moab last autumn >as an example of “realistic” rescue times. I went down before noon with >heat stroke and was not to the hospital until 7-8ish. There was an hour >delay before they decided to Evac, but that still is substantial time for a >rescue that was so close to a major outdoor town with a highly qualified >SAR team. I would hate to think about the consequences had I been in a >more remote and technical/vertical environment (I was lowered off an >pre-rigged 300′ rappel). With this and my “Psycho Damage” experience I >don’t take rescue times very lightly and often have a “oh-snap” time for my >emergency contacts much sooner than I normally would b/c of these >limitations in the desert.< Phillip, good to hear from you and your experience in this discussion. Your points are well made and give a good example of what people can expect to encounter. I don't recall the exact "verbiage" on a Zion permit, but it is something to the effect of "rescue may not be timely or even come at all". In no situation is rescue guaranteed. People need good skills, good decision making capacity, and a healthy understanding that their safety is first and foremost their own responsibility, no agency can promise a good outcome. Roughly three months ago (don't remember the exact date), had a woman fall in a canyon near Kanab. Drive time would be less than 5 minutes, hike time about 20 minutes; but with time to organize responders, gather gear, and get everyone to a point where we could actually package and execute a technical rescue, it was close to 3 hours before this woman made it to a hospital. She survived with serious, but not life threatening injuries. Keep in mind, the agency responsible for this rescue is the same agency responsible for the majority of Englestead. So what is a realistic time expectation to get somebody out of the head of Englestead? My guess is six to ten hours, regardless of the agency (Zion or Kane County). And that's being optimistic. > There are some nasty “what-ifs” out there that we may never encounter but > knowledge and a little preparation can save lives if they do happen. Glad > it was a survivor this time that is helping refresh such a dialog.< Exactly the point that I am trying to make. If you want to recreate in the wilderness, try to prepare yourself as much as possible and ultimately, it's this preparation that will provide the best outcomes. Dean
adkramoo
All points well made and taken…..This place in particular is such an easy one to cut the corner on. The big rap is at the entry, where all on top can walk back out. Biggest rap afterward is 100 feet, with several other smaller ones. It is a pretty long day with a long way out either way you go.
Its always great to have a partner who wants the day off to hike down there, to pull and carry that monster rope back up and out. To carry two 300 foot ropes through!!! Gonna have to find more strongh backs about. 😉
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rich Carlson” wrote:
People take pull cords instead of real rope to shave off a bit of weight. Cool. Now your buddy is stuck halfway down a 300 foot rappel. Will you rap down to him on your pull cord? Will you rig a haul system with your pull cord?
Mines 6mm Kevlar…might cut me and/or my rappel device in half, but, probably won’t break.
(I’ve rappelled on it a bunch…shhh…don’t tell anyone)
Any time you cut corners you add risk. Sometimes its ok, sometimes ya git bit.
Compromise and risk mitigation and tolerance…
-Brian in SLC >
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “restrac2000” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dean Kurtz” wrote:
> The time variable is one I think often gets overlooked, even in minor accidents, which is why items like the “ten essentials” turn out to be so important. I look at my rescue at Corona Arch outside of Moab last autumn as an example of “realistic” rescue times. I went down before noon with heat stroke and was not to the hospital until 7-8ish.
WOW! And you were in the heat all that time? Why so long? Time table?
With this and my “Psycho Damage” experience I don’t take rescue times very lightly and often have a “oh-snap” time for my emergency contacts much sooner than I normally would b/c of these limitations in the desert.
Your not going to believe this….or likely approve. For the Psycho Damage, our “call the marines” time was 10AM. We got out at 10:15 AM. We chased you folks down at the rangers shortly after you notified them. Since then I have adjusted our time to call for help, if we don’t return, to 10:30 AM the morning after we are due. This gives us a little more time to extract ourselves from whatever mess we have gotten ourselves into. I will apologize again for your awful night of wondering, cramped in the hold, in the pouring rain and the time you spent poking around the flotsam that morning, looking and hoping not to find our body parts. ;-/
> There are some nasty “what-ifs” out there that we may never encounter but knowledge and a little preparation can save lives if they do happen. Glad it was a survivor this time that is helping refresh such a dialog.
Yeah, I painted a particularly bleak scenario, but all seems to come back to only having 2 people, not more, complicating the situation beyond reasonable solutions. I like the power of numbers. R
Phillip >
restrac2000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dean Kurtz” wrote:
> And the reality is that the Golden Hour is blown no matter how this plays > out. The Golden Hour specifically refers to time of accident to time of > definitive care, and quite frankly it’s not possible in this situation. > But, in my opinion, your friends best chance of survival still relies on you > providing initial care. Best case scenario involves a trained, equipped > team being at the Ponderosa when you come running in. That’s still pushing > two hours of response time.
The time variable is one I think often gets overlooked, even in minor accidents, which is why items like the “ten essentials” turn out to be so important. I look at my rescue at Corona Arch outside of Moab last autumn as an example of “realistic” rescue times. I went down before noon with heat stroke and was not to the hospital until 7-8ish. There was an hour delay before they decided to Evac, but that still is substantial time for a rescue that was so close to a major outdoor town with a highly qualified SAR team. I would hate to think about the consequences had I been in a more remote and technical/vertical environment (I was lowered off an pre-rigged 300′ rappel). With this and my “Psycho Damage” experience I don’t take rescue times very lightly and often have a “oh-snap” time for my emergency contacts much sooner than I normally would b/c of these limitations in the desert.
There are some nasty “what-ifs” out there that we may never encounter but knowledge and a little preparation can save lives if they do happen. Glad it was a survivor this time that is helping refresh such a dialog.
Phillip
Rich Carlson
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dean Kurtz” wrote:
Actually, what was mentioned was the training that you provided to Lee, not > the specific organization that the materials came from. Doesn’t matter, > really, as the course is somewhat customized, the materials are the same, > and my point still stands. If you don’t practice or recertify, you’re bound > to forget things, as is true with almost everything.
Dean
Not confused about anything you posted, Dean. Confused about Lee’s comment:
>>Rich claimed it was the “Emergency Care and Safety Institute” WFA course >>that he taught 4 years ago – it wasn’t.
Dean Kurtz
Actually, what was mentioned was the training that you provided to Lee, not the specific organization that the materials came from. Doesn’t matter, really, as the course is somewhat customized, the materials are the same, and my point still stands. If you don’t practice or recertify, you’re bound to forget things, as is true with almost everything.
Dean
—– Original Message —– From: “Rich Carlson” rcwildone@yahoo.com> To: Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 4:41 PM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re:What would you do?……was Man survives 100-foot fall,
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dean Kurtz” wrote: >
Rich claimed it was the “Emergency Care and Safety Institute” WFA course >
that he taught 4 years ago – it wasn’t.< >
> Another good point. If you don’t practice, recertify, etc…, you lose >> the >> skills that you worked hard to acquire.
> I’m confused. I have not mentioned ECSI in this discussion.
Was it the National Safety Council 4 years ago? History: NSC stopped using > Jossey Bass as their publisher. It is Jossey Bass who publishes the WFA > text and instructor training materials. Jossey Bass now works with ECSI, > which partners with American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons (AAOS) and > American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP). The ACA was a NSC > training center. We are now a ECSI training center. Training materials are > exactly the same. Logo on the WFA certificates is different. Dean Kurtz, > Dave Black and I are all certified Wilderness First Aid instructors > through ECSI.
Rich Carlson
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dean Kurtz” wrote:
>Rich claimed it was the “Emergency Care and Safety Institute” WFA course
that he taught 4 years ago – it wasn’t.< Another good point. If you don't practice, recertify, etc..., you lose the > skills that you worked hard to acquire.
I’m confused. I have not mentioned ECSI in this discussion.
Was it the National Safety Council 4 years ago? History: NSC stopped using Jossey Bass as their publisher. It is Jossey Bass who publishes the WFA text and instructor training materials. Jossey Bass now works with ECSI, which partners with American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons (AAOS) and American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP). The ACA was a NSC training center. We are now a ECSI training center. Training materials are exactly the same. Logo on the WFA certificates is different. Dean Kurtz, Dave Black and I are all certified Wilderness First Aid instructors through ECSI.
Dean Kurtz
>>CERT is great, I’ve taught it, but the keyword is Community, the course is >>irrelevent (sp.) for our scenarios.I never said it was relevant (although you’re right in it being “great”), >other than that’s where I recently learned how important it is to assess >the SAFETY of a situation before rendering first aid. [That, and I thought >I would give CERT a plug. ]< And if it's not safe for you to go after him, why are you there with him in the first place? I'm not picking on you specifically, Lee, but you raise an interesting point. We all know that people routinely enter situations that they have no business being in, that's why people like me have jobs and hobbies (healthcare, rescue, etc...). But, as a responsible outdoor enthusiast, shouldn't you be prepared to deal with situations that may arise? You certainly can't train and prepare for every possible scenario, but you can try to set yourself up as best as possible with basic first aid courses, basic canyoneering, basic survival, and so on. Me? I was prepared long before it was a career, and I believe all of my regular partners are, albeit at different levels of expertise. >Rich claimed it was the “Emergency Care and Safety Institute” WFA course >that he taught 4 years ago – it wasn’t.< Another good point. If you don't practice, recertify, etc..., you lose the skills that you worked hard to acquire. >Because you have the credentials to do so. Most people will never have a >canyon partner with your qualifications, so each person needs to assess >their own abilities to SAFELY and EXPEDIENTLY reach a victim or go for >help.< True. But for most people at least some of those qualifications are within reach. You mentioned basic first aid. So many times, as in the bleeder scenario I presented, basic first aid is all you need. >Ram asked about this in the realm of a scenario, and as you know, scenarios >can have different solutions depending on who is responding. I offered >another “it depends” solution. If you haven’t already done so, please read >my response in Msg #51751.< I did. >Shouldn’t rescuers/first responders always make a self-assessment to ensure >that they are *personally* capable of rendering first aid?< Absolutely. Your first responsibility is always to yourself, second to your partner, third to victim, fourth to bystanders. Everyone's assessment of a situation and willingness to provide aid and/or accept risk is based on personal history, knowledge, comfort, etc... >I was only responding to Rich’s statement regarding “triage” from his Msg >#51752.< Noted. >I will defer to you because I am not from that area and I am not familiar >with all of the distances involved or the response times. BUT, as the >victim’s partner, all I really need to do is notify someone that there has >been an accident and the expected injuries/problems – whether it be a hiker >on the trail or an employee at the Ponderosa – before returning to the >canyon and rendering first aid within the Golden Hour.< And the reality is that the Golden Hour is blown no matter how this plays out. The Golden Hour specifically refers to time of accident to time of definitive care, and quite frankly it's not possible in this situation. But, in my opinion, your friends best chance of survival still relies on you providing initial care. Best case scenario involves a trained, equipped team being at the Ponderosa when you come running in. That's still pushing two hours of response time. >And therein lies the crux – it’s *your* decision as a trained EMT. Most >people will not have that luxury.< True again, my comfort level is different than many others, but it's my training and experience that suggests the scenario that provides the best possible outcome relies almost exclusively on the partner providing first aid. Good discussion, Lee, I'm enjoying it. Dean
Lee Eismann
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Dean Kurtz” wrote:
CERT is great, I’ve taught it, but the keyword is Community, the > course is irrelevent (sp.) for our scenarios.
I never said it was relevant (although you’re right in it being “great”), other than that’s where I recently learned how important it is to assess the SAFETY of a situation before rendering first aid. [That, and I thought I would give CERT a plug. ]
Rich claimed it was the “Emergency Care and Safety Institute” WFA course that he taught 4 years ago – it wasn’t.
> I could help him.
Because you have the credentials to do so. Most people will never have a canyon partner with your qualifications, so each person needs to assess their own abilities to SAFELY and EXPEDIENTLY reach a victim or go for help.
Ram asked about this in the realm of a scenario, and as you know, scenarios can have different solutions depending on who is responding. I offered another “it depends” solution. If you haven’t already done so, please read my response in Msg #51751.
I stated the following:
> If YOU felt that YOU were NOT capable of > performing ALL of these activities in a > SAFE and EXPEDIENT manner, then YOUR *best* > course of action would be to immediately > contact rescue personnel as quickly and > safely as possible.
Shouldn’t rescuers/first responders always make a self-assessment to ensure that they are *personally* capable of rendering first aid?
> And your triage statement is correct, but this isn’t triage, it’s > one victim.
I was only responding to Rich’s statement regarding “triage” from his Msg #51752.
> As for getting help within an hour and half? Won’t happen. I > know the response times for the rescue personnel in the area (been > a part of it for more than a decade). By the time you get out, > call for help, people are mobilized and able to reach your friend, > you’re looking at closer to 3 hours in Englestead.
I will defer to you because I am not from that area and I am not familiar with all of the distances involved or the response times. BUT, as the victim’s partner, all I really need to do is notify someone that there has been an accident and the expected injuries/problems – whether it be a hiker on the trail or an employee at the Ponderosa – before returning to the canyon and rendering first aid within the Golden Hour.
> However, for me it’s also not a tough decision.
And therein lies the crux – it’s *your* decision as a trained EMT. Most people will not have that luxury.
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rich Carlson” wrote: > People take pull cords instead of real rope to shave off a bit of weight. Cool. Now your buddy is stuck halfway down a 300 foot rappel. Will you rap down to him on your pull cord? Will you rig a haul system with your pull cord?
Mines 6mm Kevlar…might cut me and/or my rappel device in half, but, probably won’t break.
(I’ve rappelled on it a bunch…shhh…don’t tell anyone)
Any time you cut corners you add risk. Sometimes its ok, sometimes ya git bit.
Compromise and risk mitigation and tolerance…
-Brian in SLC
Rich Carlson
Soapbox item … pull cords.
People take pull cords instead of real rope to shave off a bit of weight. Cool. Now your buddy is stuck halfway down a 300 foot rappel. Will you rap down to him on your pull cord? Will you rig a haul system with your pull cord?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
Original scenario had the 300 ft rope set up as static block with pull cord available, but not tied or deployed yet
Rich Carlson
Virtual smack accepted.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, jabridaka@… wrote:
First off please accept a virtual smack to the back of the head Rich. I was fully aware that you would know of at least 2-3 ways to get down to him. With the 300ft of rope tied to the tree and left there for future retrieval I could come up with 2-3 ways of getting down “depending” on certain variables. I was looking at it from a most basic point of view. And it appeared that the two unfortunate guys involved on that day were looking at it that way also.
adkramoo
Original scenario had the 300 ft rope set up as static block with pull cord available, but not tied or deployed yet
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rich Carlson” wrote:
It depends. 😉
How is the rope rigged? Toss ‘n go? Static block? Releasable? Do you have a rescue rope? A valdotain?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, jabridaka@ wrote:
Another what-if regarding this situation could have been the person that fell didn’t come off the rope at the bottom. He is immobile and his full weight is on the rope. You are alone at the top. How are you going to get on the rope to rap down to him? As practice for Bridge Day we weight a rope with 50-60 lbs of dead weight. It is near impossible to rig a rap device alone with just this much weight on it. >
jabridaka@comcast.net
First off please accept a virtual smack to the back of the head Rich. I was fully aware that you would know of at least 2-3 ways to get down to him. With the 300ft of rope tied to the tree and left there for future retrieval I could come up with 2-3 ways of getting down “depending” on certain variables. I was looking at it from a most basic point of view. And it appeared that the two unfortunate guys involved on that day were looking at it that way also. —– Original Message —– From: “Rich Carlson” rcwildone@yahoo.com> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 2:31:01 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re:What would you do?……was Man survives 100-foot fall,
It depends. 😉
How is the rope rigged? Toss ‘n go? Static block? Releasable? Do you have a rescue rope? A valdotain?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group , jabridaka@… wrote:
Another what-if regarding this situation could have been the person that fell didn’t come off the rope at the bottom. He is immobile and his full weight is on the rope. You are alone at the top. How are you going to get on the rope to rap down to him? As practice for Bridge Day we weight a rope with 50-60 lbs of dead weight. It is near impossible to rig a rap device alone with just this much weight on it.
Rich Carlson
It depends. 😉
How is the rope rigged? Toss ‘n go? Static block? Releasable? Do you have a rescue rope? A valdotain?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, jabridaka@… wrote:
Another what-if regarding this situation could have been the person that fell didn’t come off the rope at the bottom. He is immobile and his full weight is on the rope. You are alone at the top. How are you going to get on the rope to rap down to him? As practice for Bridge Day we weight a rope with 50-60 lbs of dead weight. It is near impossible to rig a rap device alone with just this much weight on it.
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, jabridaka@… wrote: > Another what-if regarding this situation could have been the person that fell didn’t come off the rope at the bottom. He is immobile and his full weight is on the rope. You are alone at the top. How are you going to get on the rope to rap down to him? As practice for Bridge Day we weight a rope with 50-60 lbs of dead weight. It is near impossible to rig a rap device alone with just this much weight on it.
You’re not.
No way you could and you wouldn’t want to get on that loaded line and try to rappel from it anyhoo.
Best bet would be to hopefully be able to free the other ropes tied together as pull cords (and hopefully it isn’t just a single 6mm pull cord!).
Then rappel on that by hittin’ the mid station (and hope that both ropes are 60m). Only I guess if the rappel line would get you to him. Then try a pick off.
Otherwise, you’d have to descend the loaded line. Pain in the arse, but, doable. Scary as heck…and what if he came loose from whatever was holding him? Eeek.
Another thing you might be able to do is lower him.
Yeah, gotta go down and access, even if he claims he’s ok.
Wild stuff…
-Brian in SLC