RAM suggested I try posting this here for better feedback. I would have to agree with him.
So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist a rope?
Tom provided some good feedback about getting more out of my ATC by adding biners etc for more friction.
I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons in the Swell if that is any help. Hoping to do a Zion trip in the Spring.
Thoughts?
kuenn_k2
Unclear…either that or an Orca rescue.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, rging@… wrote:
He was tying off an ocean liner with that rope, right?
—– Original Message —– > From: kuenn_k2 Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Which descender for small ropes that does not twist??
One last rappel device I will throw out there just for awareness sake. It’s called a SCARAB (lengthy acronym). My friend who is an EMT/SAR person swears by this contraption.
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> >
rging@q.com
He was tying off an ocean liner with that rope, right?
—– Original Message —– From: kuenn_k2 kuenn@bellsouth.net> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:21:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Which descender for small ropes that does not twist??
One last rappel device I will throw out there just for awareness sake. It’s called a SCARAB (lengthy acronym). My friend who is an EMT/SAR person swears by this contraption.
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kuenn_k2
Thorough explanation, thanks…looking forward to reading/viewing the article.
One last rappel device I will throw out there just for awareness sake. It’s called a SCARAB (lengthy acronym). My friend who is an EMT/SAR person swears by this contraption http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE4gMhnKnwI
While it is an impressive multi-functional-descending/lowering tool it would most likely alarm your partners if you whipped it out on your next trip. Not to mention the fact the SS version would bring down a stampeding adult elephant, if accurately flung.
The titanium version is much lighter but costs a king’s ransom.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
My opinion is:
1. That the settings past “2” are not all that useful. > 2. If you call the next setting “3”, the problem is that the next setting is TOO MUCH – it is too much more friction, too big of a step. > 3. AND, to get to “3”, you have to go through a less friction place, which can be a problem if you are doing it “in combat”. Or, to avoid going through the low friction spot, you can go direct to “4”, but will end up with way too much friction.
I’m working on the Pirana article, but it will take another 10-14 days before we can release it. My style of writing articles is to only show the stuff that I think works, and not show the stuff I don’t think works. The “3” “4” and “5” settings are useful as rescue tools for 2-person rappels, but I don’t think they are generally useful.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “kuenn_k2” wrote:
Tom, reviewing the technical file posting for ATC and Pirana you submitted. Informative for me with the ATC and double biner; never considered that to be significant before but I now can see where the broadening base adds more than marginal friction especially when using large diameter biners, like the attache.
Question: I’ve never used a Pirana so there’s no knowledge base; I noticed that you didn’t show using the upper and lower hooks as an additional braking option. Is that discouraged, i.e. only for locking off?
>
TomJones
My opinion is:
1. That the settings past “2” are not all that useful. 2. If you call the next setting “3”, the problem is that the next setting is TOO MUCH – it is too much more friction, too big of a step. 3. AND, to get to “3”, you have to go through a less friction place, which can be a problem if you are doing it “in combat”. Or, to avoid going through the low friction spot, you can go direct to “4”, but will end up with way too much friction.
I’m working on the Pirana article, but it will take another 10-14 days before we can release it. My style of writing articles is to only show the stuff that I think works, and not show the stuff I don’t think works. The “3” “4” and “5” settings are useful as rescue tools for 2-person rappels, but I don’t think they are generally useful.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “kuenn_k2” wrote:
Tom, reviewing the technical file posting for ATC and Pirana you submitted. Informative for me with the ATC and double biner; never considered that to be significant before but I now can see where the broadening base adds more than marginal friction especially when using large diameter biners, like the attache.
Question: I’ve never used a Pirana so there’s no knowledge base; I noticed that you didn’t show using the upper and lower hooks as an additional braking option. Is that discouraged, i.e. only for locking off? >
kuenn_k2
Tom, reviewing the technical file posting for ATC and Pirana you submitted. Informative for me with the ATC and double biner; never considered that to be significant before but I now can see where the broadening base adds more than marginal friction especially when using large diameter biners, like the attache.
Question: I’ve never used a Pirana so there’s no knowledge base; I noticed that you didn’t show using the upper and lower hooks as an additional braking option. Is that discouraged, i.e. only for locking off?
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “TomJones” wrote:
I use the Pirana most of the time, and do not have problems with ropes twisting. I have been considering why this is, because I know other people do.
Some thoughts:
– we mostly rappel single strand on raps longer than 30 feet. > – we usually set the rope length. Not exactly, but usually there is not more than 5-10 feet at the bottom of the rap. > – we do rappel double-strand, but almost entirely on shorter raps. > – we do use ropebags most of the time, so do not add twists to the rope by coiling. > – rapping out of the BAG is useful (as someone pointed out), but the rope between the device and the bag tends to get twists/loops in it, and those loops tend to try to jump out of my hand. This would be bad. So, when rapping out of the bag, I tend to pull out ten or twenty feet below me and rappel most of that, then pull out more length – and I drop the bag when I have a clear shot to the bottom.
– When you add a Z-rig to the Pirana, the Z-rig portion of the friction system does not add twists (because the rope-path is flat).
Tom
>– In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” wrote:
RAM suggested I try posting this here for better feedback. I would have to agree with him.
So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist a rope?
Tom provided some good feedback about getting more out of my ATC by adding biners etc for more friction.
I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons in the Swell if that is any help. Hoping to do a Zion trip in the Spring.
Thoughts?
>
titanstairs
I weigh 200 lbs and with a fully loaded pack have found that on longer free hangs a double biner under the ATC and a redirect off the left leg loop instead of the right is a good amount of friction towards the end of a rap. I also like to clip a biner from my front left backpack strap to the rope above the ATC. This adds a small amount of friction but more importantly allows you to just lean back and chill out of the raps instead of fighting the weight of the pack or hanging the pack from your harness
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote:
Yes the is the z-rig or sometimes called the rappel z. may want to consider extending the device (but well within reach) will add more friction and work better. Personally I’ve 99% of the time I don’t even need to complete the Z. Just the redirect off the leg loop (completing the C?) is enough for me. YMMV
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” wrote:
Thanks for the help everyone…
I am assuming the Z-drag you are discussing is something like this
photo?
http://climbinglife.com/images/stories/amartha_climb/a%20rappel%20setups
/img_0471.jpg
I am going to play around with th edifferent options mentioned to
increase friction with the ATC. I really don’t like the twisting issue.
My rope management is challanging enough as it is without a twisted rats
nest….
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote:
with an atc-xp the two binners under neath help. in addition I’ve also
redirected off a binner on my leg loop.
I have rigged the totem plate single strand with enough friction.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” ryan.miller@ wrote:
RAM suggested I try posting this here for better feedback. I would
have to agree with him.
So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for
rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as
ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for
canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist
a rope?
Tom provided some good feedback about getting more out of my ATC by
adding biners etc for more friction.
I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons in the Swell if
that is any help. Hoping to do a Zion trip in the Spring.
Thoughts?
>
>
Shaun
Yes the is the z-rig or sometimes called the rappel z. may want to consider extending the device (but well within reach) will add more friction and work better. Personally I’ve 99% of the time I don’t even need to complete the Z. Just the redirect off the leg loop (completing the C?) is enough for me. YMMV
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” wrote:
> Thanks for the help everyone…
I am assuming the Z-drag you are discussing is something like this > photo?
http://climbinglife.com/images/stories/amartha_climb/a%20rappel%20setups> /img_0471.jpg > s/img_0471.jpg
> I am going to play around with th edifferent options mentioned to > increase friction with the ATC. I really don’t like the twisting issue. > My rope management is challanging enough as it is without a twisted rats > nest….
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote:
with an atc-xp the two binners under neath help. in addition I’ve also > redirected off a binner on my leg loop.
I have rigged the totem plate single strand with enough friction.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” ryan.miller@ wrote:
RAM suggested I try posting this here for better feedback. I would > have to agree with him.
So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for > rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as > ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for > canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist > a rope?
Tom provided some good feedback about getting more out of my ATC by > adding biners etc for more friction.
I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons in the Swell if > that is any help. Hoping to do a Zion trip in the Spring.
Thoughts?
>
aj.outdoors
I like the Pirhana’s versatility and ease of adding or removing friction, but like others, don’t like the rope twisting problem. Especially when feeding from the bag, and it’s caused issues on the rope pull as well. They can be alleviated with techniques like Tom mentioned, but when on a trip with beginners, it’s just another thing that I don’t really want to worry about and try to explain to beginners. If on a trip with 8’s or beginners, I try to make the last person down have an ATC style device (and set the rope length) to work out all the twists in the rope. Works pretty well…
Interesting thoughts on the brake hand position Luke; thanks, will play with that when I have some time.
I feel the most important thing with any device is to know how to, and be able to, add (or possibly subtract) friction if necessary. It doesn’t have to be directly related to the device (i.e. with an ATC style device, you can add friction by just bringing the rope around you and using the other hand for the brake. Now you are providing a bunch more friction as the rope rubs across you. You can also add and subtract friction by just your brake hand position – how far you bring the rope closer to, or farther from, your body.)
You definitely don’t want to have too much friction though. I’ve seen ropes killed (core shot, and even through some of the core strands) in ONE rappel because someone has too much friction, and is bouncing the whole way down as they feed the rope into the device. This is exacerbated on longer rappels, as the rope has some stretch too. I could see it sawing through enough to cause a rope failure if someone isn’t careful. Scary.
With experience, with whatever device you choose, you will know what friction setting you should use; based on what diameter the rope is, single vs double strand, if the rope is wet, distance of rappel, etc.
My recommendation is make sure the first person is comfortable with his friction setting (and know how to add), and then everyone else should err on the side of too low (but be able to add friction in flight.) That way, they won’t be stuck or bouncing, and the person down below can do a fireman’s belay for added safety. That’s the method I prefer anyway…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Luke Galyan wrote:
Funny timing on the twist question. I have been toying with ideas the last few months on seeinhg if I could make an easy load device like a piranah (I personally happen to enjoy that loading style) and have the device not twist ropes. Its harder to come up with an idea like that than one might expect.
Anyway no cool design yet but a few days ago I did find something interesting. I can make an atc twist the rope right, left or not twist at all. I can do the same with a piranah. Changing the angle the brake strand exits can force rope twist in either direction or be in the sweetspot with no rope twist.
The atc however tends to pivot with the brake hand so it kind of follows the user and stays in a non twisting configuration. I find it worth mentioning though since an atc certainly can twist the rope. But using it normally keeps it in a position where that just doesn’t happen.
Tom when you use a piranah do you by chance put your brake hand below the device between your legs? Like in the crotch area? The reason I ask is that is very close to the sweet no twist zone for the pirana. Assuming you’re right handed you can get twisting to a bare minimum with the pirana by breaking with your hand down under the device at crotch level but moved over closer to you’re left leg. This is an akward position but it does work.
Not sure if this matters to anyone but thought id toss it out as it is a recent epiphany of mine that is on topic here.
Luke
Sent from my phone
TomJones wrote:
>I use the Pirana most of the time, and do not have problems with ropes twisting. I have been considering why this is, because I know other people do.
Some thoughts:
– we mostly rappel single strand on raps longer than 30 feet.
– we usually set the rope length. Not exactly, but usually there is not more than 5-10 feet at the bottom of the rap.
– we do rappel double-strand, but almost entirely on shorter raps.
– we do use ropebags most of the time, so do not add twists to the rope by coiling.
– rapping out of the BAG is useful (as someone pointed out), but the rope between the device and the bag tends to get twists/loops in it, and those loops tend to try to jump out of my hand. This would be bad. So, when rapping out of the bag, I tend to pull out ten or twenty feet below me and rappel most of that, then pull out more length – and I drop the bag when I have a clear shot to the bottom.
– When you add a Z-rig to the Pirana, the Z-rig portion of the friction system does not add twists (because the rope-path is flat).
Tom
>– In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” wrote:
>> RAM suggested I try posting this here for better feedback. I would have to agree with him.
>> So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist a rope?
>> Tom provided some good feedback about getting more out of my ATC by adding biners etc for more friction.
>> I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons in the Swell if that is any help. Hoping to do a Zion trip in the Spring.
>> Thoughts?
Luke Galyan
Funny timing on the twist question. I have been toying with ideas the last few months on seeinhg if I could make an easy load device like a piranah (I personally happen to enjoy that loading style) and have the device not twist ropes. Its harder to come up with an idea like that than one might expect.
Anyway no cool design yet but a few days ago I did find something interesting. I can make an atc twist the rope right, left or not twist at all. I can do the same with a piranah. Changing the angle the brake strand exits can force rope twist in either direction or be in the sweetspot with no rope twist.
The atc however tends to pivot with the brake hand so it kind of follows the user and stays in a non twisting configuration. I find it worth mentioning though since an atc certainly can twist the rope. But using it normally keeps it in a position where that just doesn’t happen.
Tom when you use a piranah do you by chance put your brake hand below the device between your legs? Like in the crotch area? The reason I ask is that is very close to the sweet no twist zone for the pirana. Assuming you’re right handed you can get twisting to a bare minimum with the pirana by breaking with your hand down under the device at crotch level but moved over closer to you’re left leg. This is an akward position but it does work.
Not sure if this matters to anyone but thought id toss it out as it is a recent epiphany of mine that is on topic here.
Luke
Sent from my phone
TomJones ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:
>I use the Pirana most of the time, and do not have problems with ropes twisting. I have been considering why this is, because I know other people do.
Some thoughts:
– we mostly rappel single strand on raps longer than 30 feet. >- we usually set the rope length. Not exactly, but usually there is not more than 5-10 feet at the bottom of the rap. >- we do rappel double-strand, but almost entirely on shorter raps. >- we do use ropebags most of the time, so do not add twists to the rope by coiling. >- rapping out of the BAG is useful (as someone pointed out), but the rope between the device and the bag tends to get twists/loops in it, and those loops tend to try to jump out of my hand. This would be bad. So, when rapping out of the bag, I tend to pull out ten or twenty feet below me and rappel most of that, then pull out more length – and I drop the bag when I have a clear shot to the bottom.
– When you add a Z-rig to the Pirana, the Z-rig portion of the friction system does not add twists (because the rope-path is flat).
Tom
>– In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” wrote: >
> RAM suggested I try posting this here for better feedback. I would have to agree with him. >
> So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist a rope? >
> Tom provided some good feedback about getting more out of my ATC by adding biners etc for more friction. >
> I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons in the Swell if that is any help. Hoping to do a Zion trip in the Spring. >
> Thoughts? >
>
kuenn_k2
Personally, I’m not a fan of the figure eight (and similar devices) with their twisted-core side effect but many people overlook the nuisance. I am however, a believer of “use the tool that best suits the occasion that you’re comfortable with and know how to use” philosophy… there’s certainly a plethora of devices to choose from.
Since Hank brought it up I’ll chime in on the micro-rack (all the while knowing that a few more grams will quickly turn the nose skyward for most canyoneers). I have and use a micro when the trip is right for it. Mine is a shorty with single hyper bar. It has some superior braking advantages over ATC.xxx and most frames will support up to 10mm double line. There is, however, one warning that should be known and that doesn’t come in the “user’s manual”. In the event there is too much friction with a micro be very careful when “jacking” rope. The (unintended) loop that can/will be created during this feeding motion may allow the bottom bar to disengage changing you from too much to too little friction in a nano-flash.
One other device that hasn’t been mentioned is the Petzl Simple and Stop. I have a Simple and use the optional Frieno biner attachment which gives an added braking feature. This descending apparatus is not a favorite in my bag-o-tools.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, hank moon wrote:
Hi Ryan
Have you tried Tom’s friction suggestions yet? Prolly the best > solution to your problem.
There are other non-twist devices, but … heavier and bulkier than > ATC. The best is the (mini/micro) brake bar rack. Note that most micro > racks are designed for single rope only.
http://goo.gl/AhDyP
http://www.bmsrescue.com/micrack.html
> hank >
TomJones
Yes, that is a Z-Rig.
There are maybe better ways to set it up, but that is the Z-Rig.
Tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” wrote:
> Thanks for the help everyone…
I am assuming the Z-drag you are discussing is something like this > photo?
http://climbinglife.com/images/stories/amartha_climb/a%20rappel%20setups> /img_0471.jpg > s/img_0471.jpg
> I am going to play around with th edifferent options mentioned to > increase friction with the ATC. I really don’t like the twisting issue. > My rope management is challanging enough as it is without a twisted rats > nest….
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote:
with an atc-xp the two binners under neath help. in addition I’ve also > redirected off a binner on my leg loop.
I have rigged the totem plate single strand with enough friction.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” ryan.miller@ wrote:
RAM suggested I try posting this here for better feedback. I would > have to agree with him.
So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for > rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as > ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for > canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist > a rope?
Tom provided some good feedback about getting more out of my ATC by > adding biners etc for more friction.
I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons in the Swell if > that is any help. Hoping to do a Zion trip in the Spring.
Thoughts?
>
TomJones
I use the Pirana most of the time, and do not have problems with ropes twisting. I have been considering why this is, because I know other people do.
Some thoughts:
– we mostly rappel single strand on raps longer than 30 feet. – we usually set the rope length. Not exactly, but usually there is not more than 5-10 feet at the bottom of the rap. – we do rappel double-strand, but almost entirely on shorter raps. – we do use ropebags most of the time, so do not add twists to the rope by coiling. – rapping out of the BAG is useful (as someone pointed out), but the rope between the device and the bag tends to get twists/loops in it, and those loops tend to try to jump out of my hand. This would be bad. So, when rapping out of the bag, I tend to pull out ten or twenty feet below me and rappel most of that, then pull out more length – and I drop the bag when I have a clear shot to the bottom.
– When you add a Z-rig to the Pirana, the Z-rig portion of the friction system does not add twists (because the rope-path is flat).
Tom
>– In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” wrote:
RAM suggested I try posting this here for better feedback. I would have to agree with him.
So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist a rope?
Tom provided some good feedback about getting more out of my ATC by adding biners etc for more friction.
I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons in the Swell if that is any help. Hoping to do a Zion trip in the Spring.
Thoughts? >
Ryan
Thanks for the help everyone…
I am assuming the Z-drag you are discussing is something like this photo?
http://climbinglife.com/images/stories/amartha_climb/a%20rappel%20setups/img_0471.jpg
I am going to play around with th edifferent options mentioned to increase friction with the ATC. I really don’t like the twisting issue. My rope management is challanging enough as it is without a twisted rats nest….
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Shaun” wrote:
with an atc-xp the two binners under neath help. in addition I’ve also redirected off a binner on my leg loop.
I have rigged the totem plate single strand with enough friction.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” ryan.miller@ wrote:
RAM suggested I try posting this here for better feedback. I would have to agree with him.
So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist a rope?
Tom provided some good feedback about getting more out of my ATC by adding biners etc for more friction.
I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons in the Swell if that is any help. Hoping to do a Zion trip in the Spring.
Thoughts?
>
bsilliman2001
Whatever method you choose be sure to check it out in a location where you can recover should the friction not be enough.
Last summer when preparing to go through Heaps and it’s final 300′ free rappel I was concerned about the friction issue as should everyone as too little friction can put you in a difficult situation very quickly. A couple weeks prior to the Heaps trip I had an opportunity to use a Z-rig setup that I felt would be could for the last rappel. In this canyon I had the opportunity to either go free or make contact with the wall thereby slowing me down. Well the setup worked in this canyon and I was confidant it would work in Heaps. When it came time for me to switchover from the 2nd rappel to the last rappel I quickly connected into the biners I had in place for my Z-rig and after a verbal & visual check by Tom off I went. For the first 30-50 feet I was feeding the rope but then the speed started to increase but not too much, and due to my prior testing the rest of the free rappel went extremely well. I did not need the extra biner I had as a contingency and I had an opportunity to enjoy the ride down rather than worrying about picking up too much speed.
bruce from bryce — In Yahoo Canyons Group, rging@… wrote:
The Omega Pacific SBG. The device looks like an ATC but with a solid stem. The stem has two holes in it for different friction settings and since it has a solid stem you can wrap the rope around it for even more friction. You can’t add friction on the fly but it can handle up to single strand 8 mil.
I’m not sure what Tom suggested with the standard ATC but in case he didn’t mention you can run the rope through a biner on your leg loop then through a biner on your belay loop which gives you a lot of friction and looks sort of like a z-rig setup.
> —– Original Message —– > From: Ryan Subject: [from Canyons Group] Which descender for small ropes that does not twist??
> So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist a rope?
> >
Shaun
with an atc-xp the two binners under neath help. in addition I’ve also redirected off a binner on my leg loop.
I have rigged the totem plate single strand with enough friction.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” wrote:
RAM suggested I try posting this here for better feedback. I would have to agree with him.
So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist a rope?
Tom provided some good feedback about getting more out of my ATC by adding biners etc for more friction.
I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons in the Swell if that is any help. Hoping to do a Zion trip in the Spring.
Thoughts? >
rging@q.com
The Omega Pacific SBG. The device looks like an ATC but with a solid stem. The stem has two holes in it for different friction settings and since it has a solid stem you can wrap the rope around it for even more friction. You can’t add friction on the fly but it can handle up to single strand 8 mil.
I’m not sure what Tom suggested with the standard ATC but in case he didn’t mention you can run the rope through a biner on your leg loop then through a biner on your belay loop which gives you a lot of friction and looks sort of like a z-rig setup.
—– Original Message —– From: Ryan ryan.miller@rsmiller.net> To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Tue, 27 Nov 2012 12:33:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [from Canyons Group] Which descender for small ropes that does not twist??
So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist a rope?
hank moon
Hi Ryan
Have you tried Tom’s friction suggestions yet? Prolly the best solution to your problem.
There are other non-twist devices, but … heavier and bulkier than ATC. The best is the (mini/micro) brake bar rack. Note that most micro racks are designed for single rope only.
http://goo.gl/AhDyP http://www.bmsrescue.com/micrack.html
hank
RAM
You gotten some very good advice. I know the piranha’s are popular and have advantages, but I have seen males suspended by them a few times and I won’t go there! OUCH!
I use the double biner often…but when a coming rap scares me friction wise, I love the teeth side of a brand new ATC-XP. Beyond that creating extra bends in the rope with biners works too.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Ryan” wrote:
RAM suggested I try posting this here for better feedback. I would have to agree with him.
So here is my question… I have always preferred ATCs for rappelling because they tend not to put twists in the rope. However as ropes have gotten thinner and I now find myself using 8mm lines for canyons can anyone recommend an alternative to ATCs that does not twist a rope?
Tom provided some good feedback about getting more out of my ATC by adding biners etc for more friction.
I have just started dabbling in the 4B class canyons in the Swell if that is any help. Hoping to do a Zion trip in the Spring.
Thoughts? >