— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Wade Christensen
Kind of a rough album. Got my 12 gauge sawed off, gonna dust some…tell us what to do… Bodycount.
Funny that he plays a cop on TV. Irony. But, not a Body Count tune, to be sure (have the original before they pulled the cop killer song).
Now what’s been suggested was 2 Live Crew’s “…. Martinez”. Still thinkin’ is more melodic than that, maybe a Sean Paul groove.
Strange what sticks in one’s head…
-Brian in SLC
desertres
Death in Heaps was just an accident. No matter what setup goes into vogue, we will either just be learning a new way or reliving an old way to make a human mistake. With a single strand setup, a faster response time for a chance to correct a mistake.
Another advantage to rigging double is more friction, especially as > folks move to these high tech skinny rappel cords. And, less wear > on the single rope as the load on rappel is distributed over two > ropes, rather than one (thinking of rope over an edge for instance).
Anyhoo…
-Brian in SLC >
How about rope over a sharp edge? Just change where the rope runs over…with a double rap setup…oh, having concern?
Next up is the use of an ATC….Every time an ATC is used, I have seen the rope length change on a double rap setup. One side giving 10ft is not out of the question in large groups. Show me a group running ATCs double rap and then show me thats theres not a bunch of extra length on the rap side..in the dirt, which is a huge wear of ropes. Not that its confined to ATCs, just seems to highlight that.
Next up is ‘Euro’ Figure 8s. If I rig it double strand, I wont move. Sure theres canyon mode, aka more complexity, now your dealing with strands not getting crossed, carabiner loading,etc.
Next, Petzl Stop…
So I think its just an illusion that double rap is more simple. Setup is more simple, but after that is just at least complex, and if anything goes wrong, well I guess nothing can go wrong because a double rap is so simple….
I think the double rap system is viable, but eventually will bite back if the wrong rap is descended.
Listserve.w
Tom, are you saying toss-n-go 2 strand is not easier to inspect and set up and more fool-proof than basically any blocking/pull cord scenario?
The way I see it toss-n-go is easier, simpler, almost impossible to mis-rig at the anchor (compared to other alternatives), offers more friction (which most people I know want), splits the force on wear points on two real ropes instead of one, gives you another real rope to pull down with rather than a small-diameter pull cord for those high-friction pulls and leaves you with a good real rope in case you damage and need to knot one of your ropes.
Almost the only way you can screw it up is to not thread both strands through your rappel device. As long as you are actually threaded through the anchor you just about can’t screw it up further (except for failure scenarios that are common to all techniques). Contrast that with the many ways to screw up a bloc.
Yes, blocs are handy to save weight and for running water situations where you do want single line techniques. Unhooking in still water is easier if you can just rap off the line too, but that’s no biggie.
For the great unwashed, toss-n-go is the easiest and most fool-proof (in dry/still water). I don’t like sticking ropes and any biner or washer is too much potential trouble without a good reason. There usually isn’t a good reason for me when an overhand slides over most obstructions on retrieval.
For the rest, it’s still easy and simple and quick. Especially when you’re tired and sloppy. I’d hazard a guess that blocs are inherently more hazardous than toss-n-go for still or no water. The hazard can be mitigated by inspection and careful setup, but why use a more complex and more likely-to-be screwed up technique when you don’t have to? KISS. It can keep you alive and well especially when you might well screw it up. Human error is the weak link.
People screw up in the details. Why not make the details as few and simple as possible?
-Bill
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tom” wrote: > Your Rapides are much longer than the ones I have of a similar diameter.
Not to drive this totally into the dirt, but, give me a reference on a short 3/8″ or 10mm rapide.
My bet is yours are 5/16″ or something smaller in diameter than 10mm or 3/8″.
That rapide I posted the pic of (mostly took the pic ’cause it was unique that someone used an old Forest Titon as a bolt hanger…too funny) would eat a Petzl Attache no problemo.
The biner clipped to it is a Neutrino, so, yeah, pretty small but I tossed the pic up for reference (and fun).
> Errr. I only count one more mode (rap on wrong side of block). Two > more if you are trying to block through a rapide that is too large (As > Tom J has noted: its not a block if the carabiner has any chance of > passing through). In both scenarios you still have a knot which you > must tie and dress correctly.
Carabiner spine fails (remote but, a mode of failure).
Carabiner flips around and becomes unclipped.
Carabiner is oriented so rope clips back through (see Randi about this).
Clove hitch isn’t, and looks like it is, and fails (see Randi again).
Clove hitch comes in contact with a sharp edge on the outside of the rapide its rigged against and the rope is cut (yeah, this is a stretch). Actually, a clove hitch on a rope rubbing against anything can put a wear spot on the rope though.
Clove hitch bites hard due to large person rappelling and bouncing, and, can’t be undone, causing someone who’s tired and cranky to pull out a knife to cut the hitch out of the rope, and they accidently trip and fall on it, or, they slip while cutting and the knife severs an artery, or, they don’t realize someone’s still rappelling on the rope and they cut it. Mr. Murphy might not even buy that one.
I realize one of the failure modes with rappelling double strand is to accidently not feed both ropes into an ATC (or similar) rappel device. Guilty! Close call. Double check triple check.
> I am confident I can easily inspect both setups – and I’ll take as > much time as I need to in order to be certain everything is proper. I > think you meant ‘easily’ instead of ‘quickly’.
Same same. Anything that requires more attention and takes more time, adds any complexity is not optimal IMHO. Especially in the dark, when your tired, in bad weather…
Violates the KISS thing.
Good stuff. All food for thought. Thanks,
-Brian in SLC
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
> I’ve got no less than 80 10mm and 3/8″ rapides at home and I could > pass a standard size carabiner through the center of any of them.
> http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/1558.jpg
Brian, When it comes down to it everyone is responsible for making and inspecting their own rap setups. Your example picture uses carabiners I would never use for a block (except in emergency). Non-locking and small in both size and diameter (making it harder to cinch the clove). Your Rapides are much longer than the ones I have of a similar diameter.
But, how exactly is creating a biner block any more
complex than tying two ropes together?
Look at the number of steps to rig. Look how many folks have had > close calls or have died in the last few weeks in Zion using a >biner…. OK. (Block) = Thread rope through anchor. Tie clove onto carabiner. Dress knot. If you are riiging a pull cord you have to tie and dress and EDK. (Two rope) = Thread rope. Tie double EDK. Dress knot. Unless this is a race I don’t think there is a significant difference.
The real difference is that you have to inspect which rope you thread through your rappel device unless you pass a small diameter pull cord through the device as suggested earlier.
> Way more failure modes. Errr. I only count one more mode (rap on wrong side of block). Two more if you are trying to block through a rapide that is too large (As Tom J has noted: its not a block if the carabiner has any chance of passing through). In both scenarios you still have a knot which you must tie and dress correctly.
> Could you quickly inspect a biner > block and know it to be safely rigged? Versus two ropes tied > together with an EDK, double fisherman’s or flemish bend? I am confident I can easily inspect both setups – and I’ll take as much time as I need to in order to be certain everything is proper. I think you meant ‘easily’ instead of ‘quickly’.
> Another advantage to rigging double is more friction, especially as > folks move to these high tech skinny rappel cords. And, less wear > on the single rope as the load on rappel is distributed over two > ropes, rather than one (thinking of rope over an edge for instance).
I agree with the wear comment. The skinny ropes are more prone to damage, and are more expensive. I haven’t ever had a problem with regulating the friction though. People who have friction problems maybe haven’t practiced with their rope to understand the handling characteristics? I do have more confidence on a thicker rope – less mental issues. Not that rope diameter is topic here, but I really like the 9ish diameter cord. I’ve rapped plenty on 8mm, but 9 suits my rappel device better. One note, the larger the rope diameter the larger the blocking carabiner (diameter) needs to be in order to tie and dress nicely. Clove-biner block works better with smaller diameter cords on larger carabiners.
-tom (w)
Bill Westerhoff
> Look at the number of steps to rig. Look how many folks have had > close calls or have died in the last few weeks in Zion using a biner > block. Way more failure modes. Could you quickly inspect a biner > block and know it to be safely rigged? Versus two ropes tied > together with an EDK, double fisherman’s or flemish bend?
> Another advantage to rigging double is more friction, especially as > folks move to these high tech skinny rappel cords. And, less wear > on the single rope as the load on rappel is distributed over two > ropes, rather than one (thinking of rope over an edge for instance).
Anyhoo…
-Brian in SLC >
Though I agree that the increased friction of a double rope can help (as can an extra biner or a second device) I sure don’t want to be the one to haul 2 300 foot ropes down Heaps just to not use a biner block. As far as checking the knots, I feel quite comfortable checking a biner block with a clove and it would take about the same amount of time as checking any of the other knots listed (provided they are all neatly done). I can set up a clove hitch biner block in about the same time as an EDK double rope and less time that a double fishermans.
Again, biner blocks, figure 8 blocks, etc are not for everyone. There is NO STANDARD to this sport. We could go over this time and time again, but not everyone will agree. You could do the same for climbing. I treat it like religion… ask around about lots of them and then settle in to one that you are comfortable with.
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “bruce silliman” We rappel on BOTH strands, there is NO BLOCK. Agreed – I like that method unless the ropes are of the twisting type!
> Removing a perfectly functional and large diameter rapide was not a > public service, but, only served the portion of folks who feel the > need to rappel from a single rope blocked in combo with a pull > cord. Which, up until a few years ago, was fairly uncommon.
I fail to see how reducing the overall length of a rapide inhibits your preferred technique. Rapide’s are available in many length and diameter combo’s. I read this occurrence in mystery as that a long rapide was removed and a slightly smaller one replaced it. I would not be in favor of putting dinky small diameter rapides on rappels, hopefully this was not the case. A large diameter rapide that doesn’t pass a biner or knot should would suit both techniques.
> 10mm inside length on a Maillon Rapide is over 3.2 inches long. Hmmm. Mine are closer to 2″
> I personally like the larger rapides in 10mm and 3/8″. In some > climbing areas, they are the minimum allowed to be left as fixed > anchors. Most climbing anchors take falls, not just bodyweight+ when rapping. People also lower directly off them wearing them out. 3/8 is a nice convenient size for everyone. I only am commenting about the length.
> Maybe a better mousetrap would be the Fixe or OP rings… I tend to use the Fixe rings. Cheap, strong, inexpensive, and large radius!!.
-tom (w)
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tom” wrote: > Did I miss something? You can get nice big rapides that aren’t long > enough to pass a carabiner (or knot). If the one which was removed was > 4″ long it was a 1/2″ diameter section. 3/8″ or 10mm is pretty easy to > pull – on really long stuff use 2, or multiple rap rings to increase > the diameter. I don’t think anyone was advocating using small rapides.
I’ve got no less than 80 10mm and 3/8″ rapides at home and I could pass a standard size carabiner through the center of any of them.
See below. Note how the biner clipped to it would fit right though it no problemo.
http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/1558.jpg
> But, how exactly is creating a biner block any more > complex than tying two ropes together?
Look at the number of steps to rig. Look how many folks have had close calls or have died in the last few weeks in Zion using a biner block. Way more failure modes. Could you quickly inspect a biner block and know it to be safely rigged? Versus two ropes tied together with an EDK, double fisherman’s or flemish bend?
> In many cases, especially on short rappels, I prefer single strand > because double strand simply has more friction than I prefer.
Another advantage to rigging double is more friction, especially as folks move to these high tech skinny rappel cords. And, less wear on the single rope as the load on rappel is distributed over two ropes, rather than one (thinking of rope over an edge for instance).
Anyhoo…
-Brian in SLC
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “bruce silliman” wrote:
so instead of a biner block you would rely upon a knot block. two 125s > would be better rope management for the shorter rappels, but my personal > preference would still be the biner over the knot block.
Myopia here.
We rappel on BOTH strands, there is NO BLOCK.
A person could also rappel on both the pull cord and main rope too (especially with a 6mm pull cord), no block needed. The cords will move a tad on you if you have a larger radius/low friction anchor, though, so is something to pay attention to. Difference in friction, but, controllable too.
Removing a perfectly functional and large diameter rapide was not a public service, but, only served the portion of folks who feel the need to rappel from a single rope blocked in combo with a pull cord. Which, up until a few years ago, was fairly uncommon.
10mm inside length on a Maillon Rapide is over 3.2 inches long. That’d put the outside length at around 4″ on the most common models. I have a few 3/8″ rapides that I’d bet are very near 4″ too.
1/2 rapides are enormous. Inside must measure near (or over) 4″ in length, which would put the outside length at 5″. Darn heavy too.
I personally like the larger rapides in 10mm and 3/8″. In some climbing areas, they are the minimum allowed to be left as fixed anchors.
Maybe a better mousetrap would be the Fixe or OP rings that still have a huge radius and large diameter hole, but, since circular instead of elongated wouldn’t allow a biner the size of a commonly used Petzl Attache to pass through. A 10mm or 3/8″ rapide with one of these large rappel rings on the end is MONEY. IMHO. My preferred rappel anchor set up is a 10mm rapide to a 10mm Fixe ring.
I.D. is 1 3/8″.
http://www.fixeusa.com/rappel_rings-199_209.htm
Cheers,
-Brian in SLC
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Listserve.w” wrote:
It’s really too bad that big rapides are being removed. Personally > I like keeping my ropes with me and big rapides make it easier to pull…
Did I miss something? You can get nice big rapides that aren’t long enough to pass a carabiner (or knot). If the one which was removed was 4″ long it was a 1/2″ diameter section. 3/8″ or 10mm is pretty easy to pull – on really long stuff use 2, or multiple rap rings to increase the diameter. I don’t think anyone was advocating using small rapides.
> This bias against toss-n-go 2-strand is rather funny, until someone > gets hurt from overly complex systems that are less easy to evaluate >quickly and easily and offer more chances at getting stuck than a >overhand knot.
Again, I don’t see any widespread bias against 2-strand. Its just another technique. But, how exactly is creating a biner block any more complex than tying two ropes together?
In many cases, especially on short rappels, I prefer single strand because double strand simply has more friction than I prefer.
-tom (w)
Listserve.w
It’s really too bad that big rapides are being removed. Personally I like keeping my ropes with me and big rapides make it easier to pull, all other things being equal. Seems to me the rapides should be left where appropriate and people who just simply must use biner blocs should just use a bigger biner instead of making it potentially more difficult to retrieve the rope. Or bring your own home grown item that can’t slip through the rapide.
This bias against toss-n-go 2-strand is rather funny, until someone gets hurt from overly complex systems that are less easy to evaluate quickly and easily and offer more chances at getting stuck than a overhand knot.
-Bill
On Jul 6, 2007, at 7:50 AM, beadysee wrote:
> Maillon rapides in 10mm diameter are around 4″ in length. Shame to > ruin such a nice piece of functional hardware.
Pretty interesting commentary to me that a bomber 10mm or 3/8″ > rapide is “too big” for a standard canyoneer type person to use > especially on a rappel that is less than 60m in length.
mike_dallin
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “bruce silliman” wrote:
so instead of a biner block you would rely upon a knot block. two 125s > would be better rope management for the shorter rappels, but my personal > preference would still be the biner over the knot block. > personally it gives me a feeling of safety now that it is gone. > thanks for the comments on how those large rapides may have been placed > there.
I haven’t descended mystery for a number of years, but when we descended it we always carried two 50m ropes (old climbing ropes, like Brian said), tied them together and rapped double strand. No need for a block of any sort.
M
bruce silliman
so instead of a biner block you would rely upon a knot block. two 125s would be better rope management for the shorter rappels, but my personal preference would still be the biner over the knot block. personally it gives me a feeling of safety now that it is gone. thanks for the comments on how those large rapides may have been placed there.
bruce from bryce
>From: “beadysee” beadysee@yahoo.com
Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Why Smart People Make Double Entendres >Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:50:16 -0000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “bruce silliman” ruin such a nice piece of functional hardware.
Pretty interesting commentary to me that a bomber 10mm or 3/8″ >rapide is “too big” for a standard canyoneer type person to use >especially on a rappel that is less than 60m in length.
-Brian in SLC >
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tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “bruce silliman” rapide is “too big” for a standard canyoneer type person to use > especially on a rappel that is less than 60m in length.
-Brian in SLC
I think the point was that a 4″ long rapide could allow the blocking biner to pass through it resulting in injury. The beefy diameter wasn’t the “too big” part. This was a public service.
-tom (w)
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “bruce silliman” wrote: > The rapide I cut off at Mystery was 4″ long. Took me nearly 15 minutes to > get through the whole thing.
If we were to use the rapide that was there we would need a 250′ rope to > rappel double strand to the narrows. So the option is carry a rope in a > length that not too many people have in their bag or to use the 200′ with a > pull cord and biner. I’ve even thought that the next time I go through > Mystery I’ll take my 100′ for the shorter rappels.
You wouldn’t need a single 250 foot rope. Could employ a pair of 125 foot ropes for the task. We sometimes tie together a pair of ropes to facilitate a longer rappel.
Back when canyoneering in Zion seemed to attract more climbers (or burned out ex-climbers, ha ha), was common to see a pair of retired 50m climbing ropes deployed for many canyon venues. Pretty common that especially most ice climbers will have a pair of matched 50-60m 8-9mm ropes laying around.
Maillon rapides in 10mm diameter are around 4″ in length. Shame to ruin such a nice piece of functional hardware.
Pretty interesting commentary to me that a bomber 10mm or 3/8″ rapide is “too big” for a standard canyoneer type person to use especially on a rappel that is less than 60m in length.
-Brian in SLC
millcreek3640
I agree (generally) with both Bryce and Brian.
To me it’s a big “depends”. With the semi- popularity of the pirana and the profuse use of both 8mm and 9mm ropes by many, single stranding has it’s positives (and negatives). If I’m “running” 8mm ropes down a canyon, I try to keep it double strand – in an effort to protect the rope. But folk wearing a pirana will still often set the 8mm rope double, but then “block it” and slide down single strand.
Even with 9mm ropes, if we’ve two groups going down a canyon, when we come to a “larger drop” it’s often quicker, easier to set up up a block, toss the rope bag or have the first person take the bag down. Then when the second group arrives, the second rope can be tied on and if long enough, folk can run it either “double” or “single” (with the block on.)
I was recently in Mystery. We had a 110 and 200 ft. rope through the canyon. At the last rap, I bypassed the excessively large link and blocked via the medium sized link just above it and then checked the pull before the last (myself) person went down. I’d have used the large link, but was not properly “prepared” with a biner large enough to block it.
If I in advance, “plan” to do Mystery, I”ll take two ropes that are at least 130 and probably 150 ft. (One 9mm and one 8mm rope) I often like to “extend the line” on a pull and depending on the group – size, skill, experience, dry, water and/or rap devices – folk may run single or double, down a canyon.
And in other canyon settings – dry, wet, swimmers, short drops, long drops, easy pulls, challenging pulls, novice beginners, intermediate, or experienced – it just depends. Sometimes it’s two ropes and double lines, sometimes single strand and biner block and sometimes it’s a 6mm (rope) pull cord that is used in the mix. Yes, it all depends. Balancing safety (re ropes and people), efficiency and enjoyment. And finally (once again) I agree (in part) with Bruce and (pretty much) with Brian (below).
Each to his own. bruce from bryce
Most groups would be better off with a spare rope than a pull cord too, I’d think. Brian in SLC
Bill Westerhoff
> I’ve even thought that the next time I go through > Mystery I’ll take my 100′ for the shorter rappels.
Each to his own.
bruce from bryce
My favorite thing to bring is a good old 60 footer of 8mm. It weighs NOTHING, it fits virtually ANYWHERE and it is perfect for meat anchoring things that I can down climb or making short drops.
I know I am a firm believer in the biner block. It does ease up my rope management. Rigging up some other sort of block for a contingency anchor is a great idea as well (especially if it is an exploratory drop of unknown distance), but I can’t stress enough how EVERYTHING in EVERY system should be checked by EVERY person who takes a ride on it. If I am going to take a long road trip, I check the oil, the tires, the brakes, etc. and that is in a relatively safe car!!! When I am hanging on a rope the diameter of my finger you damn skippy I check stuff out!!! Don’t for a second think that you only need to check on the “big drops” either. I used to work with a man that died from an on the job accident… he fell off of a step ladder (second rung from the top – about 5 feet) Humans are tough, but with the right angle and force, bones are easy to break, especially a neck. Check the anchor, the webbing, the block, the harness and a good “buddy check” too. I can understand when others are a little freaked by the biner block and we should be carrying enough rope to double rope just about anything we encounter, but I feel that the most important thing is to stay well within YOUR comfort zone for everything… canyons, anchor systems, approaches, exposure, the list goes on and on.
I will double check my anchor now and rappel off of my soap box.
Bill
bruce silliman
The rapide I cut off at Mystery was 4″ long. Took me nearly 15 minutes to get through the whole thing.
If we were to use the rapide that was there we would need a 250′ rope to rappel double strand to the narrows. So the option is carry a rope in a length that not too many people have in their bag or to use the 200′ with a pull cord and biner. I’ve even thought that the next time I go through Mystery I’ll take my 100′ for the shorter rappels.
Each to his own.
bruce from bryce
>From: “beadysee” beadysee@yahoo.com
Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Why Smart People Make Double Entendres >Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:00:52 -0000
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “davewyo1” wrote:
Getting off rope in a swimmer is harder on a double strand unless >your
rope is the exact length for the drop.
True dat.
But, if you’re the last person, and have to pull the rope down…and >you rigged one side for the drop, then, faster than tryin’ to undo a >biner block maybe…
I can see settin’ the rope distance for a swimmer as being a kinda >semi reasonable excuse for rappelling single especially for a larger >group, but, I still think the simpler the better. Tie if off to the >anchor. Last person goes double, goes off one side at the pool and >swims and pulls rope at same time.
Biner blocking still seems silly to me (when unnecessary). And, now >we get to look forward to smaller rapides instead of less friction >bigger rings and rapides as the anchors left in the canyons, ’cause >folks biner block the last rap in Pine Creek and Mystery. Maybe the >practise of pull cords and biner blocks should become the exception, >and not the rule? Most groups would be better off with a spare rope >than a pull cord too, I’d think.
-Brian in SLC >
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adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Wade Christensen wrote:
Maybe Ice T’s, “Cop Killer”? I’m so ashamed that I know the lyrics to > these songs. Youth wasted I suppose. > I often find myself singing angry rap songs on the long hikes. I don’t > know why. Motivational? Inspirational?
I am glad that you worked out so much of your anger….and what you have left you direct toward Zion National Park! ;-)……and if there is anything left, he take a Dogg-y bag home! 😉 R
Chris Reeves
Now it’s getting to be a little insane if you have 2 Live Crew going through your head while hiking. We used to listen to Bodycount on the bus on the way to school when I was a kid, and I live in Utah. Now that was some crazy shizzle. I could see singing some B-Boys. That stuff gets stuck in my head for days. Brass Monkey, the funky monkey…Doesn’t Ice Cube play cops in some movies as well, or at least a spy or undercover agent or something of the sort and he was ALWAYS singing about cops, killing them and all that. I think their just trying to make a few bucks. For the most part rap is all about the dinero depending on the artist. Gold teeth, sparkling gold chains, etc. I think we’re starting to get a little off the subject of this whole website now, or at least I am. Sorry….I’ll shut up now.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Wade Christensen wrote:
Maybe Ice T’s, “Cop Killer”? I’m so ashamed that I know the > lyrics to
these songs. Youth wasted I suppose.
I often find myself singing angry rap songs on the long hikes. I > don’t
know why. Motivational? Inspirational?
Kind of a rough album. Got my 12 gauge sawed off, gonna dust > some…tell us what to do… Bodycount.
Funny that he plays a cop on TV. Irony. But, not a Body Count > tune, to be sure (have the original before they pulled the cop > killer song).
Now what’s been suggested was 2 Live Crew’s “…. Martinez”. Still > thinkin’ is more melodic than that, maybe a Sean Paul groove.
Strange what sticks in one’s head…
-Brian in SLC >