I’ll take your word on it that KISS works in Europe. But over here in > the states, Ive seen a different style where canyoneers are > challenged not to rely on KISS, but learn and practice a variety of > ways to deal with obstacles before them from approach to descent. I > dont know but it doesnt appear to me that canyoneering is all that > easy & simple over here. With a canyoneer taking 1 or 2 courses over > here, over days, not sure its so simple. >
Yeah, KISS works only in Europe… that’s why the newest technical manual will measure 400 pages + CD… Obviously, two of those volumes are needed for dry sandstone canyons.
> So when a > person is ascending a double rope on a figure 8 ,which you promote, > theres a chance they are not going to find it simpler or better than > ascending the rope single strand. >
Not easier or faster, but safer in a waterfall or when the rope rubs somewhere above you (90% of all canyon rappels, we don’t install like cavers do).
> And it still seems incredulous that there is this view that a double > rap is faster…..2 people can rap at the same time on a single > strand system….but why is speed even determining which way to > setup? I do know one thing, in a speed contest, while a double rapper > is still looking to see if the rope touches bottom, Im already at the > bottom. >
Hmmm, you mean to say that you’re faster setting the correct rope length, making a stopper knot, throwing or rapping down with the recuperating end, recuperate the ropes, undoing the knot and stuffing everything away is faster than exactly the same – minus the making and undoing of that stopper knot ?!?
Please explain. We might need to add a few other pages.
On a more serious note: I advocate the use of the APPROPRIATE technique for each situation. In a lot of situations it’s just toss ‘ go, often it’s a contingency mode, sometimes it’s a guided rap… and in the (until now for me) very rare occasion when the shit really hits the fan I try to make a selection/combination out of those other 380 pages.
Using those pages needlessly is in violation of KISS and opens the door for Mr. Murphy. Avoiding unnecessary knots and/or making clean & simple installations wherever safely possible is prevention. And is faster. And speed without rushing is safety.
Koen
tom
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Hayduke” wrote: > I was going to post a TR from a recent trip or two here in Arizona. > It is clear to me now that this community is not the place, obviously > there are wolves amongst the sheep.
Hey(duke)
Post ’em up. Don’t let the sheep amongst the wolves discourage you. Nobody will believe your TR’s anyway – we all know there are no canyons in AZ other than the Salome Jug
-tom (w)
Koen
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “desertres” wrote:
Hi hesse,
I do apologize for ‘getting on the case’ of Koen, who I respect and > maybe too late to say now, but that wasnt my intention to be > overbearing in posts, but to try to explain how I(and maybe its only > me) felt about canyoneering and bend the discussion towards what is > being promoted vs the ‘pontification’ if thats what you want to call > it.
Apologize ? Why ? You didn’t offend me !?!
> Instead, I > should maybe have recounted some of my own mishaps with double raps > or how a single rap in certain situations worked out and why and > avoided the ‘pontification…’ or shut up altogether…LOL… >
Don’t shut up, I for one would like to hear of any mishap from anyone – pure selfishness, that’ll (hopefully) prevent me and maybe others from having those same mishaps.
We’ll swap :
During the last international rendez-vous in Greece I was going last in a mixed group of seasoned canyoneers/seasoned climbers (mark the difference…). I don’t know what was going on up front but at the back we were encountering all kinds of “weird” setups. Most rappel stations were equipped to get down asap, but with little regard to those who had to break things down and recuperate.
Up came this rappel, with a biner block. The bolt was a little way out, I could reach the rope but not get a close look at the anchor.
I think it was Rich Carlson below who I asked to give the “free” end of the rope a tug to see if the biner block would recuperate or not. He tugged it, the rope slipped a bit, so all was well and I went down last.
All wasn’t well when I tried recuperating the rope… the bl***y biner was clipped into the anchor after all !!! The rope had slipped a bit, and I had too quickly assumed it was ok. That’s the second time in my entire carreer that I had to jug up a rope (the first one was a stuck/pinched rope about 10 years ago).
Caused by a biner block that had no right to be there: the rap was clear of the waterfall, there were rocks below, no swimming, clear sight of the entire 25 ft drop, no hydraulics, the rope was rubbing against the rock, the rope was fed out of a rope bag which was down too… who can give me one good reason for that biner block being there? For me, it was a prime example of making things complicated when there’s absolutely no reason. Making that biner block was a waste of time and material. And confusing/possibly dangerous.
How am I doing talking my way out of it ? I just should have checked better. My fault was assuming that it slid all the way after seeing it move, but it only had slid 4 inches.
I’m pretty certain that I’ll never, ever make that mistake again… I had to jug up that fall with Rich’s sarcastic look stabbing me in the back all the slippery way up ;-).
Now a double rap mishap ?
Koen
Listserve.w
On Jul 10, 2007, at 1:34 PM, desertres wrote:
> For Heaps, ask yourself if there are more than 19(the majority > repeat descenders) groups that want access to a place like Heaps and > if so, why doesnt that match up with the reality of ‘the 19’? Maybe > even that doesnt make sense..oh well…its a theme topic.
Forgive me if it is obvious and I missed it, but what does the “19” refer to and what doesn’t match up to its reality?
-Bill
hank moon
To all: the archival mission on this group is to avoid deleting *any* post from a sincere canyons community member. That said, it sometimes happens. The only way the post can be restored to the searchable archive is for someone to re-post it (but please don’t). I will check w/Yahoo to see if there is some other way the post can be restored.
thanks
hank
On 7/10/07, davewyo1 davewyo1@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Your original post on this group is deleted. > This is all that I could recover:
davewyo1
Your original post on this group is deleted. This is all that I could recover:
“I don’t know about the rest of you, but I love the desert more than anything. It has been about four years now since I saw my first sunset falling over the Great Windgate walls and mesas of Canyonlands. It is a sight I cannot and will not forget; I can … ”
Seems entirely appropriate to me. Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Hayduke” wrote:
Apparently my original post was not appropriate. Thanks, Tom.
I was going to post a TR from a recent trip or two here in Arizona. > It is clear to me now that this community is not the place, obviously > there are wolves amongst the sheep. >
desertres
Hi hesse,
I do apologize for ‘getting on the case’ of Koen, who I respect and maybe too late to say now, but that wasnt my intention to be overbearing in posts, but to try to explain how I(and maybe its only me) felt about canyoneering and bend the discussion towards what is being promoted vs the ‘pontification’ if thats what you want to call it. I wouldnt be surprised if there was a ‘OMG, is he kidding?’ reaction from lurkers or whoever on those posts, but then again, considering myself an explorer, I didnt dwell on what I knew then or even if thats considered a minimum level of technical knowledge. I focused on a continuing learning curve, the routes selected ahead of the curve, but not in unfamiliar territory. Hope that makes some sense. For Heaps, ask yourself if there are more than 19(the majority repeat descenders) groups that want access to a place like Heaps and if so, why doesnt that match up with the reality of ‘the 19’? Maybe even that doesnt make sense..oh well…its a theme topic.
As for Heaps, Im impervious to anything said at this point regarding possible scenarios such as if a waterknot hadnt been tied to raise the rappel rope then a different result would have occured. You have it wrong in your recollection, but thats neither here nor there. Basically, with these posts, it was a step back instead of a step forward in my little involvement with the community. Instead, I should maybe have recounted some of my own mishaps with double raps or how a single rap in certain situations worked out and why and avoided the ‘pontification…’ or shut up altogether…LOL…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “hesse15” wrote:
Sorry desertres,
but getting on the case of Koen that has under his belt thousand of > canyons all over the world > from somebody that let his party rap down 300 feet from a setting > made ONLY for lowering the first person down and cause a consequent > fatality seems a little out of place to me.
So before trying to pontificate on techniques and safety , go back > and learn yourself
> by the way also a newbie will know that water knot are for tie > webbing and not ropes!!
Cristina
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “desertres” wrote:
Yeah, KISS works only in Europe… that’s why the newest technical
> manual will measure 400 pages + CD…
> Obviously, two of those volumes are needed for dry sandstone
canyons.
My point is not that the double rap is unsafe. The key to access is
based on capabilities of the canyoneer. If a canyoneer decides to
travel in a straight line to a drop in,they might find themselves > in
a very unpleasant situation. They will only be comfortable with few
canyons using the KISS idea. The point is I think most people who
prefer the double rap for most raps do so out of comfort, not > ideals.
As I can see, canyoneering actually doesnt require rope..class 1. > Now
I can say keep it simple, then why even mess with a rope and a lot > of
people dont deal with ropes. And thats fine, but then some move on > to
a more complicated system and have fear initally, but move on. And > so
on.
I get it that they hired you as a guide to take them through a
specific canyon, and whats shown to them is for that canyon and
others like it. But its rather odd to then say that double rap is > the
way to go….To say that a rigging that is used for tall drops is > not
preferable for other drops now….doesnt make sense to me, thats > all,
unless the idea is to limit people to these same drops.
So when a
person is ascending a double rope on a figure 8 ,which you
promote,
theres a chance they are not going to find it simpler or better
than
ascending the rope single strand.
Not easier or faster, but safer in a waterfall or when the rope > rubs
> somewhere above you (90% of all canyon rappels, we don’t install
like
> cavers do).
If ascending a double rope is safer than a single strand in a
waterfall thats interesting. How so though?
> Hmmm, you mean to say that you’re faster setting the correct rope
> length, making a stopper knot, throwing or rapping down with the
> recuperating end, recuperate the ropes, undoing the knot and
stuffing
> everything away is faster than exactly the same – minus the > making
and
> undoing of that stopper knot ?!?
Please explain. We might need to add a few other pages.
> Its faster for me, yes. This idea of grabbing rope and wondering if
it reaches the bottom is a time consuming process. Im not a
gunslinger with biner blocks, but can set one up in 15 secs or > less.
A lot of times I have no need to remove the biner and can use it > for
the next rap….heck sometimes my rope is already biner-blocked
starting a canyon. Not to say that the single strand is almighty
either. Station to station raps, short short drops, etc.
> Using those pages needlessly is in violation of KISS and opens the
> door for Mr. Murphy.
> Avoiding unnecessary knots and/or making clean & simple
installations
> wherever safely possible is prevention. And is faster. And speed
> without rushing is safety.
Koen
Disagree, dont keep em in the picture ,and lose em, if they were > had
in the first place.
>
Tim Hoover
— onkaluna onkaluna@gmail.com> wrote:
> I found the better word.
Anomie, in contemporary English, means a condition > or malaise in > individuals, characterized by an absence or > diminution of standards or > values. When applied to a government or society, > anomie implies a > social unrest or chaos. >
Seems more like ‘mad cow’.
__________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
Hayduke
Apparently my original post was not appropriate. Thanks, Tom.
I was going to post a TR from a recent trip or two here in Arizona. It is clear to me now that this community is not the place, obviously there are wolves amongst the sheep.
onkaluna
I found the better word.
Anomie, in contemporary English, means a condition or malaise in individuals, characterized by an absence or diminution of standards or values. When applied to a government or society, anomie implies a social unrest or chaos.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “hank moon” wrote: > There is a strong undercurrent of…something…flowing through the canyon> community right now. It’s not outright animosity, but > stress/tension/malaise/shit for lack of a better word right now.
hank moon
Ryan, please don’t leave. We’re in the middle of a Black Summer. There is a strong undercurrent of…something…flowing through the canyon community right now. It’s not outright animosity, but stress/tension/malaise/shit for lack of a better word right now. If someone is inclined, please start a new thread to explore this possibility. I am maxed out right now but will start it myself later today if no-one steps up. Stick around, Ryan – the crap will be purged eventually…or at least come back later to see whether the maillons are still being hurled about.
Peace, hank
On 7/10/07, ryanfosterlee ryanfosterlee@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Scaratch that… with comments like that I think I will just leave…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ryanfosterlee” Wow… can we vote people off the island????
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “gootwan” wrote:
Wow. There have been some contemptable things said on this > thread
but
> that takes the cake.
That was very cruel.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “hesse15” thousand
of
canyons all over the world
from somebody that let his party rap down 300 feet from a
setting
made ONLY for lowering the first person down and cause a
consequent
fatality seems a little out of place to me.
So before trying to pontificate on techniques and safety , go
back
and learn yourself
by the way also a newbie will know that water knot are for > tie
webbing and not ropes!!
Cristina
bruce silliman
and YOU are totally out of place even to mention Desertres unfortunate accident!!!!!!!
you are the second person in the last two days to place blame where there should be only sympathy.
bruce from bryce
>From: “hesse15” cristina.filippo@hsc.utah.edu
Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Why Smart People Make Double Entendres >Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:48:51 -0000
Sorry desertres,
but getting on the case of Koen that has under his belt thousand of >canyons all over the world >from somebody that let his party rap down 300 feet from a setting >made ONLY for lowering the first person down and cause a consequent >fatality seems a little out of place to me.
So before trying to pontificate on techniques and safety , go back >and learn yourself
>by the way also a newbie will know that water knot are for tie >webbing and not ropes!!
Cristina
>— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “desertres” wrote:
Yeah, KISS works only in Europe… that’s why the newest technical
> manual will measure 400 pages + CD…
> Obviously, two of those volumes are needed for dry sandstone
canyons.
My point is not that the double rap is unsafe. The key to access is
based on capabilities of the canyoneer. If a canyoneer decides to
travel in a straight line to a drop in,they might find themselves >in
a very unpleasant situation. They will only be comfortable with few
canyons using the KISS idea. The point is I think most people who
prefer the double rap for most raps do so out of comfort, not >ideals.
As I can see, canyoneering actually doesnt require rope..class 1. >Now
I can say keep it simple, then why even mess with a rope and a lot >of
people dont deal with ropes. And thats fine, but then some move on >to
a more complicated system and have fear initally, but move on. And >so
on.
I get it that they hired you as a guide to take them through a
specific canyon, and whats shown to them is for that canyon and
others like it. But its rather odd to then say that double rap is >the
way to go….To say that a rigging that is used for tall drops is >not
preferable for other drops now….doesnt make sense to me, thats >all,
unless the idea is to limit people to these same drops.
So when a
person is ascending a double rope on a figure 8 ,which you
promote,
theres a chance they are not going to find it simpler or better
than
ascending the rope single strand.
Not easier or faster, but safer in a waterfall or when the rope >rubs
> somewhere above you (90% of all canyon rappels, we don’t install
like
> cavers do).
If ascending a double rope is safer than a single strand in a
waterfall thats interesting. How so though?
> Hmmm, you mean to say that you’re faster setting the correct rope
> length, making a stopper knot, throwing or rapping down with the
> recuperating end, recuperate the ropes, undoing the knot and
stuffing
> everything away is faster than exactly the same – minus the >making
and
> undoing of that stopper knot ?!?
Please explain. We might need to add a few other pages.
> Its faster for me, yes. This idea of grabbing rope and wondering if
it reaches the bottom is a time consuming process. Im not a
gunslinger with biner blocks, but can set one up in 15 secs or >less.
A lot of times I have no need to remove the biner and can use it >for
the next rap….heck sometimes my rope is already biner-blocked
starting a canyon. Not to say that the single strand is almighty
either. Station to station raps, short short drops, etc.
> Using those pages needlessly is in violation of KISS and opens the
> door for Mr. Murphy.
> Avoiding unnecessary knots and/or making clean & simple
installations
> wherever safely possible is prevention. And is faster. And speed
> without rushing is safety.
Koen
Disagree, dont keep em in the picture ,and lose em, if they were >had
in the first place.
_______________ http://newlivehotmail.com
scott patterson
Don’t leave because of the hateful comments from one person. Same person has attacked me too on another forum. Unfortuantely, I left that forum because someone sent me a death threat.
The canyons group is cool. Just stick around.
Anyway, back to the topic.
ryanfosterlee ryanfosterlee@yahoo.com> wrote: Scaratch that… with comments like that I think I will just leave…
Building a website is a piece of cake. Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
ryanfosterlee
Scaratch that… with comments like that I think I will just leave…
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “ryanfosterlee” wrote:
Wow… can we vote people off the island????
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “gootwan” wrote:
Wow. There have been some contemptable things said on this thread > but
that takes the cake.
That was very cruel.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “hesse15” wrote:
Sorry desertres,
but getting on the case of Koen that has under his belt thousand > of
> canyons all over the world
> from somebody that let his party rap down 300 feet from a > setting
> made ONLY for lowering the first person down and cause a > consequent
> fatality seems a little out of place to me.
So before trying to pontificate on techniques and safety , go > back
> and learn yourself
> by the way also a newbie will know that water knot are for tie
> webbing and not ropes!!
Cristina
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “desertres” wrote:
Yeah, KISS works only in Europe… that’s why the newest
technical
> manual will measure 400 pages + CD…
> Obviously, two of those volumes are needed for dry sandstone
canyons.
My point is not that the double rap is unsafe. The key to > access
is
based on capabilities of the canyoneer. If a canyoneer decides > to
travel in a straight line to a drop in,they might find > themselves
> in
a very unpleasant situation. They will only be comfortable > with
few
canyons using the KISS idea. The point is I think most people > who
prefer the double rap for most raps do so out of comfort, not
> ideals.
As I can see, canyoneering actually doesnt require rope..class > 1.
> Now
I can say keep it simple, then why even mess with a rope and a
lot
> of
people dont deal with ropes. And thats fine, but then some > move
on
> to
a more complicated system and have fear initally, but move on.
And
> so
on.
I get it that they hired you as a guide to take them through a
specific canyon, and whats shown to them is for that canyon > and
others like it. But its rather odd to then say that double rap > is
> the
way to go….To say that a rigging that is used for tall drops > is
> not
preferable for other drops now….doesnt make sense to me, > thats
> all,
unless the idea is to limit people to these same drops.
So when a
person is ascending a double rope on a figure 8 ,which you
promote,
theres a chance they are not going to find it simpler or
better
than
ascending the rope single strand.
Not easier or faster, but safer in a waterfall or when the > rope
> rubs
> somewhere above you (90% of all canyon rappels, we don’t
install
like
> cavers do).
If ascending a double rope is safer than a single strand in a
waterfall thats interesting. How so though?
> Hmmm, you mean to say that you’re faster setting the correct
rope
> length, making a stopper knot, throwing or rapping down with > the
> recuperating end, recuperate the ropes, undoing the knot and
stuffing
> everything away is faster than exactly the same – minus the
> making
and
> undoing of that stopper knot ?!?
Please explain. We might need to add a few other pages.
> Its faster for me, yes. This idea of grabbing rope and > wondering
if
it reaches the bottom is a time consuming process. Im not a
gunslinger with biner blocks, but can set one up in 15 secs or
> less.
A lot of times I have no need to remove the biner and can use > it
> for
the next rap….heck sometimes my rope is already biner- > blocked
starting a canyon. Not to say that the single strand is > almighty
either. Station to station raps, short short drops, etc.
> Using those pages needlessly is in violation of KISS and > opens
the
> door for Mr. Murphy.
> Avoiding unnecessary knots and/or making clean & simple
installations
> wherever safely possible is prevention. And is faster. And > speed
> without rushing is safety.
Koen
Disagree, dont keep em in the picture ,and lose em, if they > were
> had
in the first place.
ryanfosterlee
Wow… can we vote people off the island????
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “gootwan” wrote:
Wow. There have been some contemptable things said on this thread but > that takes the cake.
That was very cruel.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “hesse15” install
> like
cavers do).
If ascending a double rope is safer than a single strand in a
> waterfall thats interesting. How so though?
Hmmm, you mean to say that you’re faster setting the correct > rope
length, making a stopper knot, throwing or rapping down with the
recuperating end, recuperate the ropes, undoing the knot and
> stuffing
everything away is faster than exactly the same – minus the
making
> and
undoing of that stopper knot ?!?
Please explain. We might need to add a few other pages.
Its faster for me, yes. This idea of grabbing rope and wondering > if
> it reaches the bottom is a time consuming process. Im not a
> gunslinger with biner blocks, but can set one up in 15 secs or
less.
> A lot of times I have no need to remove the biner and can use it
for
> the next rap….heck sometimes my rope is already biner- blocked
> starting a canyon. Not to say that the single strand is almighty
> either. Station to station raps, short short drops, etc.
Using those pages needlessly is in violation of KISS and opens > the
door for Mr. Murphy.
Avoiding unnecessary knots and/or making clean & simple
> installations
wherever safely possible is prevention. And is faster. And speed
without rushing is safety.
Koen
Disagree, dont keep em in the picture ,and lose em, if they were
had
> in the first place.
gootwan
Wow. There have been some contemptable things said on this thread but that takes the cake.
That was very cruel.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “hesse15” wrote:
Sorry desertres,
but getting on the case of Koen that has under his belt thousand of > canyons all over the world > from somebody that let his party rap down 300 feet from a setting > made ONLY for lowering the first person down and cause a consequent > fatality seems a little out of place to me.
So before trying to pontificate on techniques and safety , go back > and learn yourself
> by the way also a newbie will know that water knot are for tie > webbing and not ropes!!
Cristina
> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “desertres” wrote:
Yeah, KISS works only in Europe… that’s why the newest technical
> manual will measure 400 pages + CD…
> Obviously, two of those volumes are needed for dry sandstone
canyons.
My point is not that the double rap is unsafe. The key to access is
based on capabilities of the canyoneer. If a canyoneer decides to
travel in a straight line to a drop in,they might find themselves > in
a very unpleasant situation. They will only be comfortable with few
canyons using the KISS idea. The point is I think most people who
prefer the double rap for most raps do so out of comfort, not > ideals.
As I can see, canyoneering actually doesnt require rope..class 1. > Now
I can say keep it simple, then why even mess with a rope and a lot > of
people dont deal with ropes. And thats fine, but then some move on > to
a more complicated system and have fear initally, but move on. And > so
on.
I get it that they hired you as a guide to take them through a
specific canyon, and whats shown to them is for that canyon and
others like it. But its rather odd to then say that double rap is > the
way to go….To say that a rigging that is used for tall drops is > not
preferable for other drops now….doesnt make sense to me, thats > all,
unless the idea is to limit people to these same drops.
So when a
person is ascending a double rope on a figure 8 ,which you
promote,
theres a chance they are not going to find it simpler or better
than
ascending the rope single strand.
Not easier or faster, but safer in a waterfall or when the rope > rubs
> somewhere above you (90% of all canyon rappels, we don’t install
like
> cavers do).
If ascending a double rope is safer than a single strand in a
waterfall thats interesting. How so though?
> Hmmm, you mean to say that you’re faster setting the correct rope
> length, making a stopper knot, throwing or rapping down with the
> recuperating end, recuperate the ropes, undoing the knot and
stuffing
> everything away is faster than exactly the same – minus the > making
and
> undoing of that stopper knot ?!?
Please explain. We might need to add a few other pages.
> Its faster for me, yes. This idea of grabbing rope and wondering if
it reaches the bottom is a time consuming process. Im not a
gunslinger with biner blocks, but can set one up in 15 secs or > less.
A lot of times I have no need to remove the biner and can use it > for
the next rap….heck sometimes my rope is already biner-blocked
starting a canyon. Not to say that the single strand is almighty
either. Station to station raps, short short drops, etc.
> Using those pages needlessly is in violation of KISS and opens the
> door for Mr. Murphy.
> Avoiding unnecessary knots and/or making clean & simple
installations
> wherever safely possible is prevention. And is faster. And speed
> without rushing is safety.
Koen
Disagree, dont keep em in the picture ,and lose em, if they were > had
in the first place.
>
hesse15
Sorry desertres,
but getting on the case of Koen that has under his belt thousand of canyons all over the world from somebody that let his party rap down 300 feet from a setting made ONLY for lowering the first person down and cause a consequent fatality seems a little out of place to me.
So before trying to pontificate on techniques and safety , go back and learn yourself
by the way also a newbie will know that water knot are for tie webbing and not ropes!!
Cristina
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “desertres” wrote:
Yeah, KISS works only in Europe… that’s why the newest technical
manual will measure 400 pages + CD…
Obviously, two of those volumes are needed for dry sandstone > canyons.
My point is not that the double rap is unsafe. The key to access is > based on capabilities of the canyoneer. If a canyoneer decides to > travel in a straight line to a drop in,they might find themselves in > a very unpleasant situation. They will only be comfortable with few > canyons using the KISS idea. The point is I think most people who > prefer the double rap for most raps do so out of comfort, not ideals. > As I can see, canyoneering actually doesnt require rope..class 1. Now > I can say keep it simple, then why even mess with a rope and a lot of > people dont deal with ropes. And thats fine, but then some move on to > a more complicated system and have fear initally, but move on. And so > on.
I get it that they hired you as a guide to take them through a > specific canyon, and whats shown to them is for that canyon and > others like it. But its rather odd to then say that double rap is the > way to go….To say that a rigging that is used for tall drops is not > preferable for other drops now….doesnt make sense to me, thats all, > unless the idea is to limit people to these same drops.
> So when a
> person is ascending a double rope on a figure 8 ,which you > promote,
> theres a chance they are not going to find it simpler or better > than
> ascending the rope single strand.
> Not easier or faster, but safer in a waterfall or when the rope rubs
somewhere above you (90% of all canyon rappels, we don’t install > like
cavers do).
If ascending a double rope is safer than a single strand in a > waterfall thats interesting. How so though?
Hmmm, you mean to say that you’re faster setting the correct rope
length, making a stopper knot, throwing or rapping down with the
recuperating end, recuperate the ropes, undoing the knot and > stuffing
everything away is faster than exactly the same – minus the making > and
undoing of that stopper knot ?!?
Please explain. We might need to add a few other pages.
Its faster for me, yes. This idea of grabbing rope and wondering if > it reaches the bottom is a time consuming process. Im not a > gunslinger with biner blocks, but can set one up in 15 secs or less. > A lot of times I have no need to remove the biner and can use it for > the next rap….heck sometimes my rope is already biner-blocked > starting a canyon. Not to say that the single strand is almighty > either. Station to station raps, short short drops, etc.
Using those pages needlessly is in violation of KISS and opens the
door for Mr. Murphy.
Avoiding unnecessary knots and/or making clean & simple > installations
wherever safely possible is prevention. And is faster. And speed
without rushing is safety.
Koen
Disagree, dont keep em in the picture ,and lose em, if they were had > in the first place. >
mike_dallin
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “desertres” wrote: > I’ll take your word on it that KISS works in Europe. But over here in > the states, Ive seen a different style where canyoneers are > challenged not to rely on KISS, but learn and practice a variety of > ways to deal with obstacles before them from approach to descent. I > dont know but it doesnt appear to me that canyoneering is all that > easy & simple over here. With a canyoneer taking 1 or 2 courses over > here, over days, not sure its so simple.
I may be missing something here… but I don’t think applying the KISS principle in a canyon (whether dry desert or running water/euro style) implies that the techniques/skills/challenges are in any way simple.
KISS simply means that, given an obstacle that has multiple possible solutions (all of which have an acceptable safety margin and similar environmental impact), and given your current equipment list, choose the solution that is simplest. The idea is that by choosing a more complex solution, you add extra complexity in your system, which increases your chance for error or something going wrong, so choose a simpler system instead. It doesn’t mean that the challenges faced are easy and simple by any means.
M
desertres
Yeah, KISS works only in Europe… that’s why the newest technical > manual will measure 400 pages + CD… > Obviously, two of those volumes are needed for dry sandstone canyons.
My point is not that the double rap is unsafe. The key to access is based on capabilities of the canyoneer. If a canyoneer decides to travel in a straight line to a drop in,they might find themselves in a very unpleasant situation. They will only be comfortable with few canyons using the KISS idea. The point is I think most people who prefer the double rap for most raps do so out of comfort, not ideals. As I can see, canyoneering actually doesnt require rope..class 1. Now I can say keep it simple, then why even mess with a rope and a lot of people dont deal with ropes. And thats fine, but then some move on to a more complicated system and have fear initally, but move on. And so on.
I get it that they hired you as a guide to take them through a specific canyon, and whats shown to them is for that canyon and others like it. But its rather odd to then say that double rap is the way to go….To say that a rigging that is used for tall drops is not preferable for other drops now….doesnt make sense to me, thats all, unless the idea is to limit people to these same drops.
So when a
person is ascending a double rope on a figure 8 ,which you promote,
theres a chance they are not going to find it simpler or better than
ascending the rope single strand.
Not easier or faster, but safer in a waterfall or when the rope rubs > somewhere above you (90% of all canyon rappels, we don’t install like > cavers do).
If ascending a double rope is safer than a single strand in a waterfall thats interesting. How so though?
> Hmmm, you mean to say that you’re faster setting the correct rope > length, making a stopper knot, throwing or rapping down with the > recuperating end, recuperate the ropes, undoing the knot and stuffing > everything away is faster than exactly the same – minus the making and > undoing of that stopper knot ?!?
Please explain. We might need to add a few other pages. >
Its faster for me, yes. This idea of grabbing rope and wondering if it reaches the bottom is a time consuming process. Im not a gunslinger with biner blocks, but can set one up in 15 secs or less. A lot of times I have no need to remove the biner and can use it for the next rap….heck sometimes my rope is already biner-blocked starting a canyon. Not to say that the single strand is almighty either. Station to station raps, short short drops, etc.
> Using those pages needlessly is in violation of KISS and opens the > door for Mr. Murphy. > Avoiding unnecessary knots and/or making clean & simple installations > wherever safely possible is prevention. And is faster. And speed > without rushing is safety.
Koen
Disagree, dont keep em in the picture ,and lose em, if they were had in the first place.
davewyo1
Aw dang! That was comedy? Cuz I was just gonna say that bait-fishing is for Luddites. It’s tantamount to dynamiting. 😉 It depletes the resource and just isn’t fair when people with worms go and catch a mess of fish while I just spent nearly $1000 on all that fly gear Digging for worms is immoral. I can just imagine their screams when they are pulled from the ground. Fortunately fish don’t feel it. At least that’s what I was told when I was eight years old…
Oh yeah,i almost forgot the point. People fly fish not because it is less effective, but because it is astonishingly productive. Sure, it takes more experience, but it also is more rewarding and often less harmful to the fish you release. You do release them, right? So, yeah, I do feel superior to myself when I down climb something that I was rappelling before. I do consider the challenges (physical,mental,interpersonal,etc.) in a canyon to be a lot of what I enjoy. All canyons are beautiful. Some are challenging and beautiful. Even the trade routes are challenging if you try to down climb as much as possible. Ghost the drops that must be rappelled if you want. That will make it still more technical, if that’s your goal. Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Listserve.w”
For those of you who are humor-challenged this post is satire. Oh, > the irony.
-Bill >