Kind of a combo of the two threads:
My opinion is that the two most dangerous people in the canyon are the complete noob (read doesn’t know what he/she doesn’t know), and the highly experienced canyoneer who has everything down to muscle memory.
The noob, who doesn’t necessarily know much either accepts the actions of the experienced person without question, or makes mistakes because no one with more knowledge is there to correct them.
Seeing and hearing of experienced people making novice mistakes has resulted in adding more focus to my actions, and questioning what I have “known” and done for years.
One method I use is to walk myself through the steps of the particular setup, as if I were teaching it to someone. This also helps me commit newer techniques to memory.
Of course, this results in me talking to myself a lot, so people think I’m crazy. Which I am.
-tom (w)
Chris Reeves
How do I know this stuff? It’s called teenage years (like Wade said) and Wikipedia. Rap is still got its place in my heart but as long as it is kept within its bounds. NWA is definitely out by now, but it definitely had a place in my CD player back in the day. Am I starting to sound old or what? But I don’t find myself singing it as a motivation while hiking. That’s insane. More like Zeppelin or Floyd, or some CSN&Y. Good stuff.
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi Poer wrote:
Wow! How do you “know” this stuff??? > Who actually listens to “cRAP?” besides inner city > gangstas? And Brian?
— Chris Reeves N.W.A. (N***az With Attitude) were a Compton,
California-based hip
hop group widely considered one of the seminal acts
of the gangsta
rap sub-genre> “The World’s Most Dangerous Group” > I think Brian is Always in his happy place. The guy’s > always got a smile on his face…and WORD, he’s never > hostile! Not even when he’s arguing (which me thinks > he LIKES to do). >
Wade Christensen
beadysee wrote: > > NWA. F*** The Police. Ugh! Double ugh! Straight outta Compton or > > sumthin. ;-O
Still might not be the tune. Has a bunch of scratchin’ in it. Song > I’m thinkin’ of repeats the same line (the “eff the biner block” > jingle) a number of times, over and over, and not at the end of a > refrain. More as the main ditty. Not p diddy.
Maybe Ice T’s, “Cop Killer”? I’m so ashamed that I know the lyrics to these songs. Youth wasted I suppose. I often find myself singing angry rap songs on the long hikes. I don’t know why. Motivational? Inspirational?
Randi Poer
Wow! How do you “know” this stuff??? Who actually listens to “cRAP?” besides inner city gangstas? And Brian?
— Chris Reeves creeves@rosenbergassociates.net> wrote:
> N.W.A. (N***az With Attitude) were a Compton, > California-based hip > hop group widely considered one of the seminal acts > of the gangsta > rap sub-genre> “The World’s Most Dangerous Group”
> Sounds like you’re pretty bored or feeling very > hostile when you go > hiking to be coming up with some tunes like that. > SERENITY NOW!! > Just go to your happy place.
Snicker, snicker! That’s FUNNY! ~ I think Brian is Always in his happy place. The guy’s always got a smile on his face…and WORD, he’s never hostile! Not even when he’s arguing (which me thinks he LIKES to do).
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Chris Reeves” wrote: > Sounds like you’re pretty bored or feeling very hostile when you go > hiking to be coming up with some tunes like that. SERENITY NOW!! > Just go to your happy place.
Nah, the meter and rhyme bring the happy place. Its a jovial thing, not a hostile intent. And nothing to do with boredom, more like outdoor inspired creativity.
Ain’t nothing but a G thang…put your hands up in the air, wave ’em like you just don’t care…
-Brian in SL to tha C (yo)
Chris Reeves
Climbing in the Tetons a couple of weekends ago, with the Heaps accident fresh on our minds, we came up with a song that for some reason I can’t get out of my mind. Pardon the implied French (German?). “Fu%k the biner block” (to the tune of some rap/hip hop jingle). Maybe NWA, but, can’t recall the artist or real name of the > tune
NWA. F*** The Police. Ugh! Double ugh! Straight outta Compton or sumthin. ;-O
N.W.A. (N***az With Attitude) were a Compton, California-based hip hop group widely considered one of the seminal acts of the gangsta rap sub-genre.[1] Active from 1986 to 1991, the group endured controversy due to the explicit, violent, and often misogynistic nature of their lyrics. They were subsequently banned from many mainstream U.S. radio stations and even at times prevented from touring – yet the group has still sold over 9 million units in the U.S. alone. Their second album, Straight Outta Compton, marked the beginning of the new gangsta rap era as the production and the social commentary in their lyrics were revolutionary within the genre. Rolling Stone ranked N.W.A. eighty-third on their list of the “100 Greatest Artists of All Time”.[2] Although largely unknowns at the group’s inception, rappers Eazy-E, Ice Cube, Dr. Dre and MC Ren would all go on to be platinum-selling stars in their own right, retroactively making N.W.A hip hop’s first supergroup.
“The World’s Most Dangerous Group” N.W.A. released the groundbreaking Straight Outta Compton on 8 August 1988. Many considered it a wake-up call to the problems that were going on in the West Coast, particularly in their home of South Central Los Angeles. With its famous opening salvo of three songs, the group reflected the rising anger of the urban youth (“Straight Outta Compton”), violently protested police brutality and racial profiling (“F*** tha Police”), and painted the worldview of the inner- city youth (“Gangsta Gangsta”). While the group was later credited as pioneers of the brugeoning subgenre of gangsta rap, N.W.A. in fact referred to their music as “reality rap”.
Sounds like you’re pretty bored or feeling very hostile when you go hiking to be coming up with some tunes like that. SERENITY NOW!! Just go to your happy place.
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “davewyo1” wrote:
Getting off rope in a swimmer is harder on a double strand unless your > rope is the exact length for the drop.
True dat.
But, if you’re the last person, and have to pull the rope down…and you rigged one side for the drop, then, faster than tryin’ to undo a biner block maybe…
I can see settin’ the rope distance for a swimmer as being a kinda semi reasonable excuse for rappelling single especially for a larger group, but, I still think the simpler the better. Tie if off to the anchor. Last person goes double, goes off one side at the pool and swims and pulls rope at same time.
Biner blocking still seems silly to me (when unnecessary). And, now we get to look forward to smaller rapides instead of less friction bigger rings and rapides as the anchors left in the canyons, ’cause folks biner block the last rap in Pine Creek and Mystery. Maybe the practise of pull cords and biner blocks should become the exception, and not the rule? Most groups would be better off with a spare rope than a pull cord too, I’d think.
-Brian in SLC
davewyo1
Getting off rope in a swimmer is harder on a double strand unless your rope is the exact length for the drop. Dave
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote: > Going off rappel in a swimmer isn’t that much harder double than > single. Still have to make sure the rap device is clipped, but, then > pull two ropes out instead of one. No big whoop. Easy on an ATC. > Super easy on an eight or pirhana. > -Brian in SLC >
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “adkramoo” wrote:
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
Part of me wonders why you canyoneering types even need a biner > block > on a canyon (Imlay short cut) where you mostly use/need only a > single > 50m rope (excepting the final rap into the river).
Speed, I guess. Easy visuals on setting length in that canyon. Out of > the rope fast. Less rope to bag. Multiple ropes to move further > along….
I can’t imagine its faster than just feeding a length of rope through a rapide or ring, then either dropping the other side tied off, or, deployed from a bag. And, you’d still have to rebag a skinny pull cord, along with all the added steps of doing and undoing the biner block.
Sure, multiple ropes make total sense. But, not with a biner block, that has to be slower than just riggin’ double and rappelling.
Is there something I’m missing?
I agree in water flow, SRT type stuff makes total sense to me. But, in these rap and swim kiddie canyons in Zion, double rope raps seem pretty KISS.
Going off rappel in a swimmer isn’t that much harder double than single. Still have to make sure the rap device is clipped, but, then pull two ropes out instead of one. No big whoop. Easy on an ATC. Super easy on an eight or pirhana.
> NWA. F*** The Police. Ugh! Double ugh! Straight outta Compton or > sumthin. ;-O
Still might not be the tune. Has a bunch of scratchin’ in it. Song I’m thinkin’ of repeats the same line (the “eff the biner block” jingle) a number of times, over and over, and not at the end of a refrain. More as the main ditty. Not p diddy.
Good though…too funny…
-Brian in SLC
adkramoo
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
Part of me wonders why you canyoneering types even need a biner block > on a canyon (Imlay short cut) where you mostly use/need only a single > 50m rope (excepting the final rap into the river).
Speed, I guess. Easy visuals on setting length in that canyon. Out of the rope fast. Less rope to bag. Multiple ropes to move further along….but what was the old drug adage? Speed kills!! And the mountain adage? Speed is safety….unless it isn’t safe. Good points though. Caught up in our techniques all too often. Just cause we know how doesn’t mean we should. No wonder you don’t use a glove goin double strand all the time 😉
> Climbing in the Tetons a couple of weekends ago, with the Heaps > accident fresh on our minds, we came up with a song that for some > reason I can’t get out of my mind. Pardon the implied French > (German?). “Fu%k the biner block” (to the tune of some rap/hip hop > jingle). Maybe NWA, but, can’t recall the artist or real name of the > tune
NWA. F*** The Police. Ugh! Double ugh! Straight outta Compton or sumthin. ;-O R
mike_dallin
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “beadysee” wrote:
No need to rap single if you’re not passing a knot, methinks. > Unless you rig for contingency, but, that’s not the situation here.
They are useful for floating disconnects – more efficient. And pretty much mandatory for canyons with lots of flowing water (assuming you aren’t using a contingency anchor).
M
beadysee
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi Poer wrote: > The rope doesn’t act the same as when clipped from the > top. It doesn’t have the munter potential done > correctly, but can munter-act in the other. Perhaps I > shouldn’t have let go, as it seems to munter for a a a > couple of feet and then seize. In any event, it’s > dangerous to clip from the bottom!!!!!! VERY BAD!!! > Should NEVER, NEVER, EVER be done that way!
I don’t get this “clip from the bottom” or top thing.
Your picture #4 of the dangerous “beaner” (ha!) isn’t a clove hitch, IMHO.
Part of me wonders why you canyoneering types even need a biner block on a canyon (Imlay short cut) where you mostly use/need only a single 50m rope (excepting the final rap into the river). I’ve done Imlay three times and never once used a biner block for any of the rappels.
Just rappel double strand? So simple, and, doesn’t matter what size rapide or rap ring the rope has been thread through. Double the friction, half the bite on the rope over sharp edges too.
KISS. Adding complicated and hard to inspect systems when not necessary just seems both silly and dangerous to me.
Climbing in the Tetons a couple of weekends ago, with the Heaps accident fresh on our minds, we came up with a song that for some reason I can’t get out of my mind. Pardon the implied French (German?). “Fu%k the biner block” (to the tune of some rap/hip hop jingle). Maybe NWA, but, can’t recall the artist or real name of the tune (similar to “Fight the Power” by Public Enemy perhaps). Its catchy though. Was funny, as we used a 6mm pull cord to get down from Guides Wall (three 50m raps in a row), where we rapped on BOTH strands. That the knot on the pull cord passed through a rappel ring (with a noticable bumb felt from below whilst on rappel) was no big deal. No need to rap single if you’re not passing a knot, methinks. Unless you rig for contingency, but, that’s not the situation here.
Why even take a pull cord through Imlay short cut? Seriously? Short chunk of rope for the many short rappels, yes, but, for me, always doubled.
And, not being able to properly tension a clove hitch…geez…and…YIKES!
-Brian in SLC
bruce silliman
thanks for explaining Randi. I’ll look at the album also. again, glad that nothing serious resulted from this and we should use this example to ‘again’ relook at out whole set of standards that are used in the canyons.
bruce from bryce
>From: Randi Poer advntr_inxs@yahoo.com
Reply-To: Yahoo Canyons Group
To: Yahoo Canyons Group
Subject: Re: [from Canyons Group] Re: Why Smart People Make Double >Entendres >Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 22:58:53 -0700 (PDT)
>— bruce silliman weabruce@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Randi Poer advntr_inxs@yahoo.com
>~ The next day in Echo, we used knot blocks >throughout. That’s the “commom” method that Adrian and >Steve use. Unless there’s some sort of pull issue, why >would you even use a biner block? Is it because it’s >faster?
So because of an accident that resulted in only a >’minor’ injury but one that has questioned the use of >an established technique, you now switch to a >knot block, which if I am not mistaken can be more >easily pulled through the rap ring/rapide.
~ The accident could’ve been worse. And no we didn’t >”switch” from and established technique. I’ve always >been comfortable with a beaner block and have never >questioned the method before now. My friends who I >trevelled Echo with use the “knot block” and always >have. They learned it in Rich’s ACA class, as an >alternate to the Biner block I’m conjecturing. Don’t >know “why” they prefer it to the biner block, but it >seemd OK to me.
IMHO you’ve compounded your mistake but then I do not >have that much experience. Please provide a reasoning >why you would go in this direction.
~ See above.
I am glad that you survived but am also wondering >that if it was a munter why the quick descent. Seems >like there is sufficient friction in a munter >that would dimish this effect. >Not questioning but wondering.
~ A munter is a “pull through” knot that you can use >to rappel if you’ve not got a rappelling device. This >knot wrapped around a biner will not seize up, but >will move through the biner the same way it moves >through an 8 or ATC.
What seemed to happen when I tested it at home, was >that the biner clipped from the bottom acted like a >munter at first, then seized up after a foot or two. >Risky.
When I see you again, I’ll demonstrate. It’s hard to >explain over e-mail unless you try it for yourself.
~Randi
bruce from bryce >_______________
>http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
_______________ Don’t get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary! http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
Randi Poer
— bruce silliman weabruce@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Randi Poer advntr_inxs@yahoo.com>
~ The next day in Echo, we used knot blocks throughout. That’s the “commom” method that Adrian and Steve use. Unless there’s some sort of pull issue, why would you even use a biner block? Is it because it’s faster?
So because of an accident that resulted in only a ‘minor’ injury but one that has questioned the use of an established technique, you now switch to a knot block, which if I am not mistaken can be more easily pulled through the rap ring/rapide.
~ The accident could’ve been worse. And no we didn’t “switch” from and established technique. I’ve always been comfortable with a beaner block and have never questioned the method before now. My friends who I trevelled Echo with use the “knot block” and always have. They learned it in Rich’s ACA class, as an alternate to the Biner block I’m conjecturing. Don’t know “why” they prefer it to the biner block, but it seemd OK to me.
IMHO you’ve compounded your mistake but then I do not have that much experience. Please provide a reasoning why you would go in this direction.
~ See above.
I am glad that you survived but am also wondering that if it was a munter why the quick descent. Seems like there is sufficient friction in a munter that would dimish this effect. Not questioning but wondering.
~ A munter is a “pull through” knot that you can use to rappel if you’ve not got a rappelling device. This knot wrapped around a biner will not seize up, but will move through the biner the same way it moves through an 8 or ATC.
What seemed to happen when I tested it at home, was that the biner clipped from the bottom acted like a munter at first, then seized up after a foot or two. Risky.
When I see you again, I’ll demonstrate. It’s hard to explain over e-mail unless you try it for yourself.
~Randi
> bruce from bryce _______________ > http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
>
bruce silliman
>From: Randi Poer advntr_inxs@yahoo.com
>— Sonny Lawrence canyonear@gmail.com> wrote:
In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tom” > wrote:
We pulled the rope up and discovered >the carabiner attached in an odd way. It clearly was >not a clove hitch. At that point we assumed it had >been rigged wrong. Unfortunately we re-rigged it >quickly.
>The next day in Echo, we used knot blocks throughout. >That’s the “commom” method that Adrian and Steve use. >Unless there’s some sort of pull issue, why would you >even use a biner block? Is it because it’s faster?
So because of an accident that resulted in only a ‘minor’ injury but one that has questioned the use of an established technique, you now switch to a knot block, which if I am not mistaken can be more easily pulled through the rap ring/rapide. IMHO you’ve compounded your mistake but then I do not have that much experience. Please provide a reasoning why you would go in this direction.
I am glad that you survived but am also wondering that if it was a munter why the quick descent. Seems like there is sufficient friction in a munter that would dimish this effect. Not questioning but wondering.
bruce from bryce >
_______________ http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
Randi Poer
— Tom Jones ratagonia@gmail.com> wrote:
> Knot blocks? KNOT BLOCKS?
> Yeah, you can use knot blocks. But I have found > knot blocks can get > sucked into the rapide and get stuck.
Not if you use a washer.
> A better idea – take a few minutes to learn how to > tie a biner > block, and use that correctly. Then take a few > minutes at each > rappel to set up your block correctly.
Most do know how to tie a biner block – me included. I just never saw the potential danger of clipping in at the bottom, as I’m sure others don’t/didn’t. I just always clipped up top as it does seem the natural thing to do and it’s the way I’ve always seen it done.
> If you CAN’T get the hang of tying a clove hitch on > a biner, I > suggest, well, I hate to say it, but, … you > should take up > another sport, because you will NEVER be safe.
Is anyone ever really safe? We all need to be aware of as many potential problems as we can. Even with methods we’ve trusted and used for years. Did you examine the rope action when the biner is clipped from the bottom? I did.
The rope doesn’t act the same as when clipped from the top. It doesn’t have the munter potential done correctly, but can munter-act in the other. Perhaps I shouldn’t have let go, as it seems to munter for a a a couple of feet and then seize. In any event, it’s dangerous to clip from the bottom!!!!!! VERY BAD!!! Should NEVER, NEVER, EVER be done that way!
Do we agree on that?
> Tom
Sonny Lawrence
Yeah, you can use knot blocks. But I have found knot blocks can get > sucked into the rapide and get stuck. > And the knot can get set so tight that it is difficult to untie. Might consider using a figure eight block. It doubles as a contingency anchor.
Tom Jones
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, Randi Poer wrote:
The next day in Echo, we used knot blocks throughout. > That’s the “commom” method that Adrian and Steve use. > Unless there’s some sort of pull issue, why would you > even use a biner block? Is it because it’s faster? > I’ve always used it cuz, the folks I travelled with > used it, but if there is this potential hazard maybe a > knot block is the wisest > choice?????????????????????????????
~Randi > Knot blocks? KNOT BLOCKS?
Yeah, you can use knot blocks. But I have found knot blocks can get sucked into the rapide and get stuck.
A better idea – take a few minutes to learn how to tie a biner block, and use that correctly. Then take a few minutes at each rappel to set up your block correctly.
If you CAN’T get the hang of tying a clove hitch on a biner, I suggest, well, I hate to say it, but, … you should take up another sport, because you will NEVER be safe.
Tom
Randi Poer
— Sonny Lawrence canyonear@gmail.com> wrote:
In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tom” wrote:
Seeing and hearing of experienced people making novice mistakes has resulted in adding more focus to my actions, and questioning what I have “known” and done for years.
Sonny:
We pulled the rope up and discovered the carabiner attached in an odd way. It clearly was not a clove hitch. At that point we assumed it had been rigged wrong. Unfortunately we re-rigged it quickly.
So admittedly Randi’s explanation is a guess at what happened.
Randi:
The reason I’m guessing that’s what happened is beacause I watched Scott create the loops correctly, but didn’t watch him clip the biner. Later, when we were discussing it, Scott asked you to watch him make the block: He created the loops, and then clipped the bottom! Do you remember him doing that?
When I got home, I tried both methods and discovered that when “clipped” at the bottom, depending on how the ropes lay, the block actually acts like a munter. I’ll find time to post another picture of the rope strands in the actual position where they “act” munterish.
The next day in Echo, we used knot blocks throughout. That’s the “commom” method that Adrian and Steve use. Unless there’s some sort of pull issue, why would you even use a biner block? Is it because it’s faster? I’ve always used it cuz, the folks I travelled with used it, but if there is this potential hazard maybe a knot block is the wisest choice?????????????????????????????
~Randi
Sonny Lawrence
— In Yahoo Canyons Group, “tom” wrote:
Seeing and hearing of experienced people making novice mistakes has > resulted in adding more focus to my actions, and questioning what I > have “known” and done for years. > In this particular case, the anchor was a sling around a log. The block was under it. So for the last two people standing at the anchor looking down, the block was not visible. Please note we are not certain as to what happened. As Randi said, initially we thought she rapped on the pull side. This is because she screamed, I came over to the edge, looked down, and only saw rope (like looking at a toss and go) coming from the rapide downward. Randi got off rope. We pulled the rope up and discovered the carabiner attached in an odd way. It clearly was not a clove hitch. At that point we assumed it had been rigged wrong. Unfortunately we re-rigged it quickly. I wanted down immediately so I could check on Randi. I did not take the time to tease apart how it might have been tied. My failing. So admittedly Randi’s explanation is a guess at what happened. Still, it is a VERY useful learning experience. The next day I did Englestead with a well seasoned mountaineer whom I had never canyoneered with before. After hearing this story, he was a bit reluctant to trust a simple carabiner block. That is understandable. He backed up the block with a separate loop clipped into the anchor from the pull side, which the last person down would retrieve.