Yahoo Canyons Group

Zion Backcountry Management Plan Approved

Well, the plural of anecdote still isn’t data.

And claims from prominent people on the group aren’t necessarily facts.

When a claim is asserted here (especially when self-serving) I’d like to see the evidence to support it. In my experience claims that are not supported by evidence often can turn out to be opinions. There’s all sorts of things people just “knew” was true that turned out not to be so.

I’ll give credit where credit is due. I appreciate and applaud Rich giving free natural anchor seminars. I think it’s a good thing to increase skills.

But has anyone ever studied with even the paltry available facts (gathered from less than reliable sources) between the general canyoneering population (non-ACA) and their accident/death rate vs. ACA-influenced canyoneers and their accident/death rate? And then published the data, sources and analysis?

Now, I disagree with Rich on many things just like Tom. But I don’t necessarily disagree that Rich’s efforts may have increased safety, just that it’s not proven just because someone makes a claim especially when it benefits them. I’d like to see evidence, not just opinion to support that.

-Bill

On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:44 PM, Tom Jones wrote:

> — In Yahoo Canyons Group, WB wrote: >

> On Jan 11, 2008, at 3:12 PM, Rich Carlson wrote: >
>> I will add … Regarding #2 on the list – safety – NPS told me >>> they have seen a noticeable improvement in canyoneers’ skill >>> levels compared to a few years ago. The ACA deserves the >>> lion’s share of the credit for that. >
> Evidence to support your claim? Are you arguing the NPS claims >> that or are you saying it? >
> -Bill >
There are many things I disagree with Mr. Carlson on, but I believe > he has EARNED THE RIGHT, through hard work, to make that claim.
You may believe him or you may not. Whatever. Like many a good > claim, quantizing the truth of the matter would be difficult and > expensive.
Tom

Message Details

AuthorWB
DateJanuary 12, 2008
Discussion19 replies
View original ↗
  • restrac2000

    My questions and comments are a little out of sync, so please forgive me:

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, HARVEY HALPERN wrote: > i.e. Parunweep may be underwater.

    Is this the debate that arose in the 90’s or is it still ongoing? If it is still ongoing I would love to educate myself further. Any suggested readings or links?

    >Those people who bemoan guide book wqritters because now there favorite places will be more crowded forget the example of Glen Canyon “the place no one knew” We need people to know of these places and fight like hell for them or our WSA’

    I think this issue deserves more than the simple rhetoric that has been used by both sides of the debates for decades. Are there any research projects on this? I think there are many of us who are actually familiar with the specific situation that you voice. From my reading of the history its not simply fair to label it (outside marketing campaigns) as the “place that no one knew.” Might be more accurate to label it the place David Brower didn’t know. There were people recreating there at that point, people who knew it fondly. But that is a side point, and an especially early point in the environmental movement with a steep learning curve.

    The complexity involves multiple factors. Guidebooks increase exposure to “secret” locations. Increased visitation leads to changes to both the land and the visitor experience. That same exposure is applauded for increasing awareness of the areas affected by management decisions. But the way those factors interplay isn’t simple enough as the slogans of both sides of the wilderness debate say. I have read that the explosion in Grand Canyon river descents has a distinct correlation (not necessarily causality) with the exposure created by organizations like the Sierra Club. That explosion led to competition for limited resources like camp sites, etc. That exposure helped prevent the creation of several controversial dams (a fact that I am grateful for).

    We are now playing in a political and social arena that is much more mature and several decades older. And there are those of who “bemoan” guidebooks because we recognize they play a part in the changes we have experienced in the backcountry. They are components of a very complex system of cause and effects. They are joined by the effects of photography, magazines, commercial guiding, and the internet.

    > Remoteness while good at keeping numbers of backpackers/canyoneers low will do nothing to protect against extractive industries, Can’t get alot more rugged and remote than the Book Cliffs but if industrial tar sands protection happens you can forget about ecological integrity. Criss crossed with roads and production facilities will destroy wildlife populations etc etc etc.

    I need to educate myself on the tar sands issue to a much greater extent. I understand it to be quite the destructive and inefficient method for mining energy resources. I know the Book Cliffs, Roan Cliffs, and plateaus above them well (though I could know them much better). I worked for a wilderness therapy company that was located in that region. Ironically I have never seen anyone bemoan their use of the land. We had quite the impact: utilizing wood to extensive levels, multiple large groups in a small region for months at a time, latrines/catholes for all those people for years now. But not a peep from state, federal government , or NGO’s. Why? We definitely had a significant impact on the land, wildlife, and ecosystem as a whole, despite preaching minimal impact. We had a distinct impact on what many label a fragile landscape, but even workers within the organization contrasted our impact with industry to deflect accountability.

    I admit that the scale of destruction caused by industry, especially the energy industry, is substantially larger. But during the quiet years of the debate we could be confronting such thing as the impacts of human powered endeavors. Like wilderness therapy companies. Guidebooks. Photography of every corner of Utah (intentional hyperbole). Those things we all love to use and indulge and so easily deflect constructive criticism of with comparative means. I would love to get past the slogans and see what the real relationships and impacts are, if any. At least have a vulnerable public dialog. Then I might feel like I am being educated on worthwhile subject rather than being indoctrinated with a deep-rooted slogan or political strategy.

    > No WIlderness is not crucile for my continued enjoymen5t of solitude. it’s crucial for the land.

    Simple and accurate statement. I whole-heartedly agree.

    Youth

  • HARVEY HALPERN

    Of those 250 days none were in designated Wilderness since Utah has practically Zero. I’d guess 1/3 are in BLM WSA and nearly all are in America’s Redrock Wilderness Bill. They need to be designated Wilderness for many reasons. For starters I support Wilderness designation not so my favorite little places remain places where I can experience solitude but because it’s the ONLY way to ensure that these places will be ecologically intact for future generations and perhaps more importantly for the land itself. Those people who bemoan guide book wqritters because now there favorite places will be more crowded forget the example of Glen Canyon “the place no one knew” We need people to know of these places and fight like hell for them or our WSA’s i.e. Parunweep may be underwater.

    Since the 1990’s there’s been a crazy explosion of ORV’s and their attendent destruction of ecosystems particularly riparian. Of course Wilderness designation alone won’t stop the unlawfull use of ORV”S but that coupled with enforcement and WAY STIFFER penalties might. Remoteness while good at keeping numbers of backpackers/canyoneers low will do nothing to protect against extractive industries, Can’t get alot more rugged and remote than the Book Cliffs but if industrial tar sands protection happens you can forget about ecological integrity. Criss crossed with roads and production facilities will destroy wildlife populations etc etc etc. No WIlderness is not crucile for my continued enjoymen5t of solitude. it’s crucial for the land.

  • W Reid White

    Howdy Tom,

    I hope you won’t mind that I’ve cut & pasted from a couple of your posts, as I want to minimize the risk of repeating myself – which I’m very good at. Again, please remember, all my opinions.

    _____

    From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of Tom Jones

    >>>Well, you should not accept it as a given. Permit systems >>>with the breadth of the Zion Canyoneering permit system >>>are (at least) rare for day users in National Parks. While >>>N Parks often have use limits for a few most-desirable >>>attractions; they rarely (if ever) cover an entire Park

    >>>for an entire activity.

    My perception of need and givens is colored by my experience. Great Smoky Mountains National Park has gone to hell in a handbasket during my lifetime (some progress has been made in restoring it over the past decade) in part because no attempts at visitation management were considered. As have the Cape Hatteras and Cape Lookout National Seashores. I’d welcome visitation restrictions even if it did make it more of a hassle for me to get in. Perhaps my acceptance is also due over-generalizing to Zion all I’ve read about the fragility of desert environments and the lasting marks humans leave on them.

    >>>So, while a permit/quota system for the Subway and The >>>Narrows is consistent with the way the NPS operates (and >>>is supported by most people in this discussion), a wide- >>>ranging non-self-issued permit for day-users may be >>>unique within the NPS system.

    I don’t perceive the uniqueness of the Zion permit system as an issue. I believe that the huge variability in geography, climate and ecosystems – not to mention the variability in human visitation patterns and use impacts – mandates that the NPS customize resource management to each park. Which is not to say I consider this customization a perfect match to what Zion needs.

    >>>The questions are: are there canyons that are too >>>crowded? Which ones? What is an appropriate reaction?

    I totally agree.

    >>>THIS RESPONSE is NOT SCIENCE – their response is >>>pseudo- science and politics masquerading as science, >>>because applying research in that manner is against the >>>principles of science.

    Welcome to the world of science under our current adminstration. Sorry, but I couldn’t resist. I deal on a regular basis (in health care) with the preposterous labeled scientific thanks to the regime in power. Perhaps the NPS has a longer history of this kind of behavior with which I’m unfamiliar. Hopefully it will decrease across the board if we as a nation are able to elect a more reasonable government. I have no major issue with a conservative governance , so long as it’s socially based rather than religiously. But now, I digress.

    >>>It is not obvious to me that X number of people produces >>>an unacceptable level of resource damage, without a >>>careful evaluation of the specific physical resources and >>>how the physical resource changes (ie, is impacted) over >>>time.

    Again, I totally agree.

    >>>I have continually suggested to the Park that they should >>>monitor physical impacts by (drumroll…) looking at the >>>physical impacts;

    This should be, like, duh! Even to a bureaucracy. I have a counter-fear, however, of debating the importance of physical impacts until irreparable damage has already been done. Perhaps not so unreasonable, given the NPS’s history. Not sure what’s a happy medium.

    >>>That is the data available from the Park. Part of the >>>problem may be that there are not data geeks like me >>>working there; therefore, the Park is not REAL interested >>>in the data and has little interest in carefully analyzing >>>it – therefore it does not get done, or presented in a >>> way that allows much useful analysis.

    And here I jump ahead to Felicia’s observation. Wonderful idea (academic research involvement)!

    Thanks to all who have posted on this thread so far. It’s helping me broaden my horizons with regard to resource management way out there.

    Happy Trails,

    Reid

  • iamfeliciaus

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Tom Jones” wrote:

    It is not obvious to me that X number of people produces an > unacceptable level of resource damage, without a careful evaluation > of the specific physical resources and how the physical resource > changes (ie, is impacted) over time. In other words, just because > there are more people on that Saturday in June than you find suits > your taste, does not mean that the canyon got tore up on that day. >

    Sounds like a great thesis for a Masters or PhD student.

    I have continually suggested to the Park that they should monitor > physical impacts by (drumroll…) looking at the physical impacts; > rather than by counting the number of people using the canyon. > Counting the people implies that we know how much damage X people > cause, and therefore we don’t need to monitor the physical impact.

    Maybe the Park is not a interested in some of the issues that you have raised, but is there in interest in the world of academia?

    Is this where you recruit from “the outside” to counter the Park?

    But, are you prepared if the science does not support your position?

    The decisions that the Park has made, have been made. There appears to be an understanding of how the decisions where made. This would lead us to believe that future decisions will most likely be made in a similar way.

    If the world of academia enters this debate, will the Park be more likely to listen?

  • So if the areas Harvey goes are”defacto” wilderness(not proposed by law) and he or anyone can enjoy the same solitude in these areas, why does it need a “wilderness or wilderness study area” designation? Is there a need to eliminate the 1 day nols encounter? —– Original Message —– From: Tom Jones To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 10:17 AM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Zion Backcountry Management Plan Approved

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Kurt” wrote: > > Harvey > So in your 250+ backcountry days with only one other group > siting, how many of these days were in wilderness or wilderness > study areas? > Having an idea of where Harvey has wandered, I can tell you that the land management status of the areas he was in are very hit and miss. Most of those areas are defacto wilderness, and may or may not have designation. As I am sure you are aware, actual designation is a highly-charged political issue here in Utah. (Sorry for answering for you, Harv).

    > It sounds like there may be plenty of opportunities for solitude > right now under current policy. You did say backcountry of Utah, > not Zion so we may be a little off topic here.

    Taking into account resources available in the region is not off- topic – it is a recommended component of the planning process by NPS policy and handbooks. That there are “tremendous” opportunities for a low encounter rate experience nearby would tend to favor the argument that the park does not need to try really hard to artificially produce low-encounter rates within its boundaries.

    Tom

    ————

    Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam: Spam Not spam Forget previous vote

  • This seems like an excellent point to me. And it suggests a corollary . . . that there is not much data to support the idea that any given quota level will either keep, for example, the old exit trail in Spry from getting worse or even allow it to improve. I suppose there is such a number, but if the NPS is managing quotas chiefly to facilitate an a priori conception of solitude in narrow canyons, chances are they did not attempt to discover it.

    Jeff

    —– Original Message —- From: Tom Jones ratagonia@gmail.com>

    I have continually suggested to the Park that they should monitor physical impacts by (drumroll…) looking at the physical impacts; rather than by counting the number of people using the canyon. Counting the people implies that we know how much damage X people cause, and therefore we don’t need to monitor the physical impact. We don’t know how much damage X people cause because each case and each canyon is different.

    __________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

  • Tom Jones

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Kurt” wrote:

    Harvey > So in your 250+ backcountry days with only one other group > siting, how many of these days were in wilderness or wilderness > study areas? > Having an idea of where Harvey has wandered, I can tell you that the land management status of the areas he was in are very hit and miss. Most of those areas are defacto wilderness, and may or may not have designation. As I am sure you are aware, actual designation is a highly-charged political issue here in Utah. (Sorry for answering for you, Harv).

    > It sounds like there may be plenty of opportunities for solitude > right now under current policy. You did say backcountry of Utah, > not Zion so we may be a little off topic here.

    Taking into account resources available in the region is not off- topic – it is a recommended component of the planning process by NPS policy and handbooks. That there are “tremendous” opportunities for a low encounter rate experience nearby would tend to favor the argument that the park does not need to try really hard to artificially produce low-encounter rates within its boundaries.

    Tom

  • Tom Jones

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, bruce silliman wrote:

    > Hey Tom, I spent some time this morning going through the > statistics that you have on the ZCC group and noticed one item > that just jumped out at me from the daily use in Behunin, Mystery, > and Kolob Creek. That was the high number of people going into > Mystery on Saturdays i.e. 12,14,24,29,39,45 plus others in > between. This is a tremendous number of people utilizing that > canyon and indicates the impact being placed on the approach and > descent into Mystery. And this is for June. Probably could > deduce that July and August might see even higher numbers.

    Thank you for engaging, Bruce.

    This was June 2003, the last year before quotas. Mystery June 2003 was chosen because it has the highest use days recorded for Mystery. This information was taken from permits, and since it was before quotas, permit numbers and actual numbers are pretty close. July and August numbers were not higher.

    There is not more data like this because the database program the permits are on is extremely awkward to pull data out of. So these numbers were pulled out “manually”.

    “Tremendous” is a loaded word. 45 people on one day is “tremendous”? A matter of opinion.

    Question: when were limits imposed on Mystery and the other canyons?

    2004

    Observation: for Mystery, it appears that limits were justified > for the sole reason of resource damage, and one has to remember > that it appears that the collection of data was on an irregular > basis so we cannot know what the use was on those days where no > monitoring was conducted (looking at the data it appears that it > was from observation and not extracting data from the permits > themselves).

    It is not obvious to me that X number of people produces an unacceptable level of resource damage, without a careful evaluation of the specific physical resources and how the physical resource changes (ie, is impacted) over time. In other words, just because there are more people on that Saturday in June than you find suits your taste, does not mean that the canyon got tore up on that day.

    For example, is 45 people on a day a “tremendous” number for using the West Rim Trail to Angels Landing? It is not, it is a low number for that trail, and we can probably instantly agree that it does not produce unacceptable impacts because the trail is paved or slickrock for its entire length.

    I have continually suggested to the Park that they should monitor physical impacts by (drumroll…) looking at the physical impacts; rather than by counting the number of people using the canyon. Counting the people implies that we know how much damage X people cause, and therefore we don’t need to monitor the physical impact. We don’t know how much damage X people cause because each case and each canyon is different.

    My observation on the Mystery trail is that it does not change very much over time. It certainly changed a lot with the big winter of 2005 when 2/3 of it slid; but even the slide mostly had an impact in the crown area, and many of the trail landmarks in the slide area remained intact (if moved a bit). Half the trail was on a former slide path, now 2/3 of it is. My observations based on going down and UP the trail many times in the last 10 years is that the surface of the trail is stable, and changes very little with human use.

    That said, 45 people seems like a lot of people to me in Mystery, and would be something that even I would label as crowded. One thing the permit/quota system can do is knock the top off the usage spikes and spread people out over more days. Note that this decreases overall usage only slightly. We proposed a limit of 24 in Mystery, which I felt would make the permit not too hard to get, but still prevent gross over-crowding.

    Observation #2: when using statistics data collected must be > consistently collected or its value is diminished. In looking at > all of the data that you posted there is so much difference among > the various data collected to make it questionable.

    That is the data available from the Park. Part of the problem may be that there are not data geeks like me working there; therefore, the Park is not REAL interested in the data and has little interest in carefully analyzing it – therefore it does not get done, or presented in a way that allows much useful analysis.

    Observation #3: in my limited experience with # user days I am > skepticle of the number. It seems, at least in one instance, that > a fudge factor is added to increase the number to make the parks > look better in the eyes of higher management, the congress and the > public. > While I am a skeptic, I am not that much of a skeptic. I believe the numbers provided have not been monkeyed with; since backcountry is such a small part of what the Park does, I doubt it is worth the trouble and risk of fabrication.

    There are, however, some troubles with the numbers, which I asked the Park to address in the planning process and they did not. I believe that because the Subway permit is SO HARD to get, that the number of actual Subway hikers is a LOT less than the number of permits issued. I asked the Park to count the actual number of hikers on ‘permit full’ days, but they declined to do so. My theory is that on most ‘permit full days’ (quota = 50), the actual number of hikers is usually between 30 and 40. Thankfully, the Park has upped the quota on the Subway, which should make it considerably easier to get.

    Thanks Bruce, good to hear your comments and observations.

    Tom

  • Harvey So in your 250+ backcountry days with only one other group siting, how many of these days were in wilderness or wilderness study areas? It sounds like there may be plenty of oppurtunities for solitude right now under current policy. You did say backcountry of Utah, not Zion so we may be a little off topic here. —– Original Message —– From: HARVEY HALPERN To: Yahoo Canyons Group Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 6:38 AM Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Zion Backcountry Management Plan Approved

    Tom Jones makes an excellent point about choosing your canyon and season to minimze your encounters. In the entire decade of the 1990’s when “canyoneering” was really taking off I met one party in the backcountry of Utah. That’s one party (a NOLS group) in well over 250 backcountry days (admittedly pretty far back backcountry). So pick somewhere obscure and don’t go on a holiday weekend and it’s real unlikely that your solitude will be impacted on.

    ————

    Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam: Spam Not spam Forget previous vote

  • bruce silliman

    Hey Tom, I spent some time this morning going through the statistics that you have on the ZCC group and noticed one item that just jumped out at me from the daily use in Behunin, Mystery, and Kolob Creek. That was the high number of people going into Mystery on Saturdays i.e. 12,14,24,29,39,45 plus others in between. This is a tremendous number of people utilizing that canyon and indicates the impact being placed on the approach and descent into Mystery. And this is for June. Probably could deduce that July and August might see even higher numbers.

    Question: when were limits imposed on Mystery and the other canyons?

    Observation: for Mystery, it appears that limits were justified for the sole reason of resource damage, and one has to remember that it appears that the collection of data was on an irregular basis so we cannot know what the use was on those days where no monitoring was conducted (looking at the data it appears that it was from observation and not extracting data from the permits themselves).

    Observation #2: when using statistics data collected must be consistently collected or its value is diminished. In looking at all of the data that you posted there is so much difference among the various data collected to make it questionable.

    Observation #3: in my limited experience with # user days I am scepticle of the number. It seems, at least in one instance, that a fudge factor is added to increase the number to make the parks look better in the eyes of higher management, the congress and the public.

    For what its worth,

    bruce from bryce these comments are solely that of the writer and do not reflect any position of the NPS.

    To: canyons@yahoogroups.comFrom: ratagonia@gmail.comDate: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 07:52:33 +0000Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Zion Backcountry Management Plan Approved

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rich Carlson” wrote:

    Take a look at raw numbers, not how they are presented to suit one > person’s idea of logic and science. Canyoneering has been growing > dramatically in popularity. Yes, it has – but this seems to be more a statement of hyperbole than anything specifically useful. Is there an issue with the solid growth of canyoneering? If so, what is it? Can we measure it? Can we characterize the problem in some way?> Toward the end of the 90s an internet search pulled up a couple > dozen results. Now a Google search shows 250,000 results. There > was very little public beta available for Zion canyons then. Now > there are websites, guidebooks and at least four guide services > promoting the area. Entirely true, but largely irrelevant. The Internet has grown enourmously since 1999 – therefore it makes a poor gauge of how a sport (or any other topic) has expanded in that time period.> How many people were doing canyons in Zion in 1999? Not many. In > 2007 they issued permits for 22,000+ people (user days). How many > more people would have been in the canyons if there were no > limits? Nobody knows. Nobody can present any valid science to > prove that natural resources were protected because limits were > set. Likewise, nobody can present any valid science to prove that > natural resources would not have been damaged if > no or higher limits were set. The only thing either side of the > argument has are opinions and the “logic” they used to back up > their opinions. But they’re still just opinions.> There IS some interesting Visitor Use data coming from the Park, some of which is available on the ZCC site here:http://canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/research.htmMy apologies for having data only through 2004.I think the 2004 Backcountry Statistics and the 2004 Backcountry Report are most interesting.For 2004, there were 20,321 users with permits in Narrow Canyons, with a total of 23,380 User Days (= Narrow Day # of people plus Narrow Overnight # of people plus Narrow Overnight # of Visitor Use Nights). WOW! 23,380 User Days – the place must be really crowded!!!!This was the first year with quotas (outside the Subway). Rich’s question was – what would the use have been without Use Limits? I fail to see the relevance of THAT question – why does that matter?The questions are: are there canyons that are too crowded? Which ones? What is an appropriate reaction?Of those almost 24,000 User Days, 8603 of them were in the Narrows; and another 6650 were for The Subway. Leaving 8127 user days for the other canyons. Pine Creek had 2753 of them; Keyhole 1573; Orderville 1565; Mystery 1010; Behunin 554; Spry 581 – and the rest fewer than that.To me – just my opinion mind you – that quite a few people are going to Zion and having a good time in backcountry canyons is not really a problem. And the observation that canyoneering use has increased substantially in the last five years is not, in and of itself, a problem. If there was a problem, it would be one of several:A. over-use is tearing up substantial portions of X, Y and Z canyons (discussed elsewhere, this does not seem to be a problem);B. tremendous crowding has backed up people at rappels, compromising their safety (while not a general trend, this does seem to happen from time to time); orC. too many people in the canyons at the same time creates a social crowding situation that severely negatively impacts people’s wilderness experience (which is what the VERP study was for, and which some of the discussion is about).My analysis of the research, both the park’s VERP study and prior research on the subject of how people view social encounters in Wilderness, tends to indicate that the number of occurances of type C above (significant over-crowding) are very few.The problem for me, as an advocate, is that the Park is rather uninterested in whether the social encounters at the rate they are occuring significantly impacts the visitors Wilderness Experience. The Park has already decided to to manage for a (IMO artificially low) specific number of social encounters per zone and has little interest in changing its mind.I label this (for propoganda purposes) a failure of planning, and a failure to go with the science. The Park’s response was that they have to go with the numbers produced by the scientist they hired, regardless of other factors or critical analysis of their interpretation that points out flaws in their technique. Again, THIS RESPONSE is NOT SCIENCE – their response is pseudo-science and politics masquerading as science, because applying research in that manner is against the principles of science.Again, perhaps I have strayed from the original line of argument. I believe the proposition was “There’s too many canyoneers, the canyons would be overrun without a quota and permit system”. My response is – take a careful look at the data, most of that use is in the Narrows and The Subway; and the rest of the canyons do not look like they are “too crowded” by looking at it three ways: 1. physical impacts; 2. statistics of use; and 3. VERP study lack of finding that social encounters was a significant problem despite trying very hard to produce this result.Tom

    _______________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_012008

  • HARVEY HALPERN

    Tom Jones makes an excellent point about choosing your canyon and season to minimze your encounters. In the entire decade of the 1990’s when “canyoneering” was really taking off I met one party in the backcountry of Utah. That’s one party (a NOLS group) in well over 250 backcountry days (admittedly pretty far back backcountry). So pick somewhere obscure and don’t go on a holiday weekend and it’s real unlikely that your solitude will be impacted on.

  • Tom Jones

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rich Carlson” wrote:

    Take a look at raw numbers, not how they are presented to suit one > person’s idea of logic and science. Canyoneering has been growing > dramatically in popularity.

    Yes, it has – but this seems to be more a statement of hyperbole than anything specifically useful. Is there an issue with the solid growth of canyoneering? If so, what is it? Can we measure it? Can we characterize the problem in some way?

    > Toward the end of the 90s an internet search pulled up a couple > dozen results. Now a Google search shows 250,000 results. There > was very little public beta available for Zion canyons then. Now > there are websites, guidebooks and at least four guide services > promoting the area.

    Entirely true, but largely irrelevant. The Internet has grown enourmously since 1999 – therefore it makes a poor gauge of how a sport (or any other topic) has expanded in that time period.

    > How many people were doing canyons in Zion in 1999? Not many. In > 2007 they issued permits for 22,000+ people (user days). How many > more people would have been in the canyons if there were no > limits? Nobody knows. Nobody can present any valid science to > prove that natural resources were protected because limits were > set. Likewise, nobody can present any valid science to prove that > natural resources would not have been damaged if > no or higher limits were set. The only thing either side of the > argument has are opinions and the “logic” they used to back up > their opinions. But they’re still just opinions. > There IS some interesting Visitor Use data coming from the Park, some of which is available on the ZCC site here:

    http://canyoneeringusa.com/zcc/research.htm

    My apologies for having data only through 2004.

    I think the 2004 Backcountry Statistics and the 2004 Backcountry Report are most interesting.

    For 2004, there were 20,321 users with permits in Narrow Canyons, with a total of 23,380 User Days (= Narrow Day # of people plus Narrow Overnight # of people plus Narrow Overnight # of Visitor Use Nights). WOW! 23,380 User Days – the place must be really crowded!!!!

    This was the first year with quotas (outside the Subway). Rich’s question was – what would the use have been without Use Limits? I fail to see the relevance of THAT question – why does that matter?

    The questions are: are there canyons that are too crowded? Which ones? What is an appropriate reaction?

    Of those almost 24,000 User Days, 8603 of them were in the Narrows; and another 6650 were for The Subway. Leaving 8127 user days for the other canyons. Pine Creek had 2753 of them; Keyhole 1573; Orderville 1565; Mystery 1010; Behunin 554; Spry 581 – and the rest fewer than that.

    To me – just my opinion mind you – that quite a few people are going to Zion and having a good time in backcountry canyons is not really a problem. And the observation that canyoneering use has increased substantially in the last five years is not, in and of itself, a problem. If there was a problem, it would be one of several: A. over-use is tearing up substantial portions of X, Y and Z canyons (discussed elsewhere, this does not seem to be a problem); B. tremendous crowding has backed up people at rappels, compromising their safety (while not a general trend, this does seem to happen from time to time); or C. too many people in the canyons at the same time creates a social crowding situation that severely negatively impacts people’s wilderness experience (which is what the VERP study was for, and which some of the discussion is about).

    My analysis of the research, both the park’s VERP study and prior research on the subject of how people view social encounters in Wilderness, tends to indicate that the number of occurances of type C above (significant over-crowding) are very few.

    The problem for me, as an advocate, is that the Park is rather uninterested in whether the social encounters at the rate they are occuring significantly impacts the visitors Wilderness Experience. The Park has already decided to to manage for a (IMO artificially low) specific number of social encounters per zone and has little interest in changing its mind.

    I label this (for propoganda purposes) a failure of planning, and a failure to go with the science. The Park’s response was that they have to go with the numbers produced by the scientist they hired, regardless of other factors or critical analysis of their interpretation that points out flaws in their technique. Again, THIS RESPONSE is NOT SCIENCE – their response is pseudo-science and politics masquerading as science, because applying research in that manner is against the principles of science.

    Again, perhaps I have strayed from the original line of argument. I believe the proposition was “There’s too many canyoneers, the canyons would be overrun without a quota and permit system”. My response is – take a careful look at the data, most of that use is in the Narrows and The Subway; and the rest of the canyons do not look like they are “too crowded” by looking at it three ways: 1. physical impacts; 2. statistics of use; and 3. VERP study lack of finding that social encounters was a significant problem despite trying very hard to produce this result.

    Tom

  • Tom Jones

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rich Carlson” wrote:

    I have never done Pine Creek looking for a wilderness experience or > solitude. In fact, I don’t do any Zion canyons looking for solitude > (although I have found it serendipitously on many occasions) . > Encountering a handful of other people does not bother me (as long > as they’re not being loud). >

    That’s too bad, Rich, because you are missing out. I realize not all people do canyons for the *Wilderness Experience*, and that definitions of *Wilderness Experience* vary widely between different individuals.

    Perhaps it got lost in my not-as-funny-as-I-intended hyperbole, but there is plenty of minimal-social-encounter opportunities in Zion. Of my 150 or so days in Zion in the last 10 years, I can only think of two trips where I got annoyed by the crowds – one by a very slow, irritated and irritating group of 12 at the last rap in Pine Creek; and one by an obnoxious Boy Scout group in Orderville. I’d say about 75% of my canyon trips in Zion, I do not encounter other groups in the technical portion of the canyon. I try to avoid the classics on weekends, and canyon a lot in the off-season and go to obscure routes.

    Tom

  • Tom Jones

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “Rich Carlson” wrote:

    Tom has no idea how many times I’ve been in Pine Creek or any > other Zion canyon and has no idea what months, days or times I was > referring to in my post. I could come on this group and announce > that the sun rises in the east and he would find a way to argue > with me about it.

    Nice deflection, Rich, and quite successful at quashing the discussion. But, belive it or not, this is not about the Rich and Tom drama – this discussion is about the Backcountry Management Plan and the resulting permit system. I thought we were having a discussion – though I do tend to state my viewpoint rather strongly.

    I believe that discussion is part of the democratic process. I’d like to have a dialogue based on facts, evidence and opinions – and you are correct in asserting that the disctinction between these often gets confused.

    I will attempt to be somewhat more civil, while still making my points with vigor.

    I’m not defending the permit PROCESS; there is definitely room for > improvement. But there are sound reasons for limits. NPS has > stated their priorities repeatedly – 1. resource protection, 2. > safety (liability), and 3. wilderness experience – in THAT order. > People can rant about their desire for wilderness experience or > their willingness to forego it, but the “logic and science” behind > the decisions is primarily about resource protection, not visitor > experience.

    The Park is not real proactive on stating why they plan to do things – generally, the Park states it’s objectives and goals, and then what it plans to do, and then what it thinks the effects of these actions will be. It makes their reasoning and reasons a bit murky, but, I have developed a difference conclusion than yours, Rich. The evidence tends to indicate that the primary purpose of the permit/quota system is to manage social encounters – but let’s take the points in order:

    1. Resource Protection: definitely Job One for the Park Service. Highly supported by me, and most (if not all) others in this discussion, which is why it does not really get much discussion. There is agreement on this issue.

    For instance, The Subway was getting out of control, and ZNP jumped in and imposed reasonable limits that protected the resource and left plenty of availability headroom. The camp spots up by the Subway recovered considerably – a success story. Over the years, the hike became more popular and permits became harder to get.

    To me, this is the best point of the new Backcountry Plan. Considerably increased quotas for the Subway. Conditions on the ground (ie, Resource Impacts) and visitor encounter rates will be monitored and it is possible that the quota will need to be moved back down. Add to this the “two days in advance” rule rather than the “one day in advance” rule, and I think the tension and turmoil associated with getting a Subway Permit will decrease substantially. I also believe that the actual usage will increase only slightly. Just my belief – no real facts to link to it.

    It should be noted that the Management Plan and the Draft Backcountry Plan talk some, but not very directly re canyoneering about Physical Impacts.

    2. Visitor Safety – not surprisingly, we all seem to agree that visitors should be safe. There is little discussion and debate about what actions the Park will take re Safety, partly because the Park has only a limited range of options it CAN do, and we all agree that what the Park is doing now is appropriate.

    3. Visitor Experience / Encounter Rates by Zone / Quotas to manage encounter rates.

    This is the big one. In public and private discussions with Ray and Cindy, in public discussions with the same, in the General Management Plan and in the Draft Backcountry Management Plan; the Park makes it very clear that they have selected targets for encounter rates and that they WILL manage to try to meet those targets, thank you very much. This is the PRIMARY reason for canyon quotas.

    Some of the quotas are effected by Resource Issues. In the Draft Plan, they list slightly lower quotas for some canyons due to Owl Nesting issues and due to erosion issues.

    So – let me conclude this section with this statement of opinion:

    I think the preponderance of the evidence supports the theory that the main contention and main reason for the permit/quota system is to manage social encounters.

    To some degree, this is a tangential issue. The Park has the legal right to manage for minimal social encounters if it chooses to – but I claim that this is a poor policy choice, that it is inconsistent with Park purposes, goals and objectives, and is counter to the research on the subject.

    (More on other points in separate posts).

    Tom

  • Tom Jones

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, “W. Reid White” wrote:

    For me, the permit system is a given. I accept it as a necessity > for park preservation. Doesn’t mean I like the way it’s > operating.

    Well, you should not accept it as a given. Permit systems with the breadth of the Zion Canyoneering permit system are (at least) rare for day users in National Parks. While N Parks often have use limits for a few most-desirable-attractions; they rarely (if ever) cover an entire Park for an entire activity.

    The exceptions I know of or conjecture:

    * whitewater river sections? (mostly overnight)? Cataract Canyon? * climbing on Mt Rainier (though most of it is overnight use, unless you are Buzz. (story- Buzz?)) * certain specific climbs in the Tetons (Black Ice Couloir, when it still exists; others?) * summit attempts on Mts McKinley and Foraker (Denali NP) – but these are usually overnights. * others? some time ago I looked for NP Units with similar day-use wide restrictions, and could not find any.

    So, while a permit/quota system for the Subway and The Narrows is consistent with the way the NPS operates (and is supported by most people in this discussion), a wide-ranging non-self-issued permit for day-users may be unique within the NPS system.

    Examples anyone?

    Tom

  • Not that it supports ANY theory or can be directed in any direction, but with a very slow RESCUE season at Zion “TG”, the last three callouts I responded to in “canyon related” incidents ended in: one fatality and 2 carryout/rescue scenarios. Out of the 3 last “Majors”, 2 of the “victims” were ACA trained and one was not. Now….to gain statistics from this would be unfair I suppose? Might have been 3 fatalities if they were not trained?

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, WB wrote:

    Well, the plural of anecdote still isn’t data.

    And claims from prominent people on the group aren’t necessarily facts.

    When a claim is asserted here (especially when self-serving) I’d like > to see the evidence to support it. In my experience claims that are > not supported by evidence often can turn out to be opinions. There’s > all sorts of things people just “knew” was true that turned out not > to be so.

    I’ll give credit where credit is due. I appreciate and applaud Rich > giving free natural anchor seminars. I think it’s a good thing to > increase skills.

    But has anyone ever studied with even the paltry available facts > (gathered from less than reliable sources) between the general > canyoneering population (non-ACA) and their accident/death rate vs. > ACA-influenced canyoneers and their accident/death rate? And then > published the data, sources and analysis?

    Now, I disagree with Rich on many things just like Tom. But I don’t > necessarily disagree that Rich’s efforts may have increased safety, > just that it’s not proven just because someone makes a claim > especially when it benefits them. I’d like to see evidence, not just > opinion to support that.

    -Bill

    On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:44 PM, Tom Jones wrote:

    > — In Yahoo Canyons Group, WB wrote:

    >

    >> On Jan 11, 2008, at 3:12 PM, Rich Carlson wrote:

    >>> I will add … Regarding #2 on the list – safety – NPS told me

    >> they have seen a noticeable improvement in canyoneers’ skill

    >> levels compared to a few years ago. The ACA deserves the

    >> lion’s share of the credit for that.

    >> Evidence to support your claim? Are you arguing the NPS claims

    > that or are you saying it?

    >> -Bill

    > There are many things I disagree with Mr. Carlson on, but I believe

    he has EARNED THE RIGHT, through hard work, to make that claim.

    You may believe him or you may not. Whatever. Like many a good

    claim, quantizing the truth of the matter would be difficult and

    expensive.

    Tom >

  • W Reid White

    Hi Ram,

    Yes – I can totally agree that the sledgehammer possibilites are a bit out there. Hopefully, over the coming years, we can influence ZNP management in a more favorable direction. Of course, I feel that way because my stance is that when I try and fail, it’s time to try harder. But in no way is that statement meant to compare the energy I’ve put into Zion with that of folks like yourself, Tom & Rich – just stating a life posture.

    And I, too, have been surprised. Comments I thought innocuous in come cases generated significant emotion, while comments I thought over (or at least near) the edge generated almost none. I also agree that it’s better to lay stuff on the table than lock it up somewhere. I chalk it all up to some combination of cabin fever, frustration with the system, lack of a good row for a bit… To be clear, however, I was not offended by anything I read either – just offering commentary from a distance.

    Happy Trails, Reid

    _____

    From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of adkramoo Sent: Friday, 11 January 2008 20.09 To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Zion Backcountry Management Plan Approved

    Most likely the number of canyons needing protection will grow with the numbers in the sport. If I am right that this is a belief of near everyone, then the issue goes back to its breath and implementation. Can we agree on that? Many folks objections are to a sledge hammer being used to swat a fly. A permit for Corral Hollow? Why? A system that requires you to be on line to get to a canyon like that? Nuts.They should take care of us less 😉

    I have been surprised a few times by how personally many have taken the differences in opinion on this subject. I have been offended by no one, including those that are polar in their views from me. I’m not sure if my skin is too thick, others too thin or if I am missing something. I found it a good exchange of views covering a wide spectrum of beliefs and topics, right down to and including our criminal class. 😉 A healthy clearing of the air. Others obviously feel differently. I apologize to those who have been made uneasy and been disturbed by the energy some of my posts may have unleashed. That was and is not my intention. R

    .

  • W Reid White

    Howdy Phillip,

    Much appreciated. But please don’t sell yourself short – especially not at the expense of my girth .

    Happy Trails, Reid

    _____

    From: Yahoo Canyons Group [mailto:Yahoo Canyons Group] On Behalf Of restrac2000 Sent: Friday, 11 January 2008 19.37 To: Yahoo Canyons Group Subject: [from Canyons Group] Re: Zion Backcountry Management Plan Approved

    Thanks for the courteous and well presented reply. My own attempts at the subject seem emaciated in comparison.

    Youth

    .

  • Tom Jones

    — In Yahoo Canyons Group, WB wrote:

    Well, the plural of anecdote still isn’t data.

    And claims from prominent people on the group aren’t necessarily > facts. >

    No?

    Tom